Kukui

I apologize for my insensitivity to the reference to MMM. Kukui

thekabalist, I thought your explanation of kehunah was interesting: The word Kahuna (click here) in Hawaiian has a similar meaning. I know that one coincidence doesn’t mean much but it is interesting to me. Kukui

In some of Hugh Nibley’s writings he discusses ancient manuscripts that discuss the apostles curiosity about how Mary conceived the Lord. Mary has the apostles stand in a circle as she recounts some of the details. As she gets to the sacred part of the story the Lord himself appeared and commanded Mary "to utter no more of this mystery." I think what we can say from some of these writings is that from the earliest times of the church people have been curious about the subject. I would agree with Cass and the writer of the documents in that these things are sacred and should be treated as such.

I like all the answers given and I may be a little too late to offer a suggestion, but what does it for me is when I study the last hours of Christ’s life from Gethsemane to the cross. Also people say that in D&C 19 that Christ was bearing his testimony so I like to change the words to the first person as follows: Then when I am trying to comprehend the suffering He went through I think of D&C At this point I am literally shaking with horror and I ask myself, “How could He do it?” “How could He do it?” And then I remember Matthew 22 Then it is so very clear to me that no one has ever kept this commandment so completely as Jesus has.

That is totally true in my case for a long time. Even in my present calling as door greeter I am learning and growing. I am by nature a shy person. If I had my druthers I would be a hermit; but the Lord won’t let me. The Lord has more ambition for me than I do.

Good point. I was speaking from memory and not from any source. My apologies. Generally we were told in times past that it began with Brigham Young. We don’t know when. We don’t know why. There is no known revelation instructing the withholding to begin. President Gordon B. Hinckley has stated that we don’t know why. There are records that show: 1836: In March, Elijah Abel, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder. 1836: In December, Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Seventy. 1844: Walker Lewis, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder. 1846: William McCary, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder. A plausible explanation by some, and a person would have to go back and read early Mormon history to verify this, is that either Brigham Young or other brethren may have read the following verse: Abr. 1: 26 26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood. and may have decided this verse (revelation) applied to Blacks. However, now that you asked the question and I read into it a little deeper, I like President Gordon B. Hinckley’s statement that, “we don’t know why”, and we don’t know exactly when but certainly it appears that it would have started after William McCary ordination in 1846. Kukui

John, Thanks for clearing up that Jonah thing very nicely. I came into this thread late and 1. I don’t want you to feel like you are being ganged up on and 2. I want to see if I understand your comments/understanding about the transfiguration. So you are saying that the prediction “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels” is fulfilled in the first few verses in chapter 17? If the answer is yes, then what does “and then he shall reward every man according to his works” mean to you? Because that “reward” part throws my mind all the way to the end times. How are you seeing that reward thing as part of the same/current event? Or did I miss the point completely?

Another reason I love the utube of President Hinkley is because we don’t often hear about the intimate details of the inner workings of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve; at least I don’t. Before President Hinkley’s talk I had heard that when the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve meet on Thursdays in the upper room of the Salt Lake Temple that there is often lively discussion; each man having strong and often differing opinions on various subjects. Now what President Hinkley has added for me is that I can see once the discussion is over for that day and with all that has been discussed still fresh in their minds, the prophet leads the prayer and pleads with the Lord for guidance. That is soo Doctrine and Covenants. D&C 9: 8 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. Considering that they had been discussing and praying on the subject of the priesthood for all worthy males off and on at various times since at least the 1950s and then for them to all have the comfort in the minds and peace in the hearts experience at the same time is totally amazing. D&C 6: 23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? I know from my own experience that I don’t always get an answer to prayer on the first try or two. Most often it takes a while. I also know, as many of you do, of the unmistakable witness that can come on certain special occasions.

That may well be mysticmorini. I am not privy to what the brethren were considering. I have heard Pres. Hinkley speak on this subject before and he mentioned that every president since David O. McKay had prayed earnestly about every worthy male holding the priesthood. I have never heard any thoughts expressed as you have indicated, which only leaves me to feel the brethren were more concerned with the welfare of those denied the priesthood rather than the difficulty in keeping the commandment because of mix population. But what ever is, is. If you are correct, I am so very glad for the revelation that came as told by President Hinkley.

Did the LDS Church bow to political pressure? This thread is in response to people who have used the above statement in reference to Blacks receiving the priesthood. Anyone who uses that statement is reading something someone wrote and does not know for themselves because they were not there. The writer using those statements is trying to mislead the reader. If you were born around 1953, you would have been about 15 in 1968. If you were younger than that, you would have most likely been unaware of the political pressure brought to bear on the Church to allow the Blacks to hold the priesthood. By 15 students in high school were required to read current affairs, and it may have reached the level of their attention. This is my narrow account as I was on the fringes so to speak and not in the middle of it. Other accounts may be more enlightening than mine. I had returned from my mission in Hong Kong at the end of 1966 and was attending BYU. I don’t remember the exact dates and am too lazy to look them up but what I remember is that during the time of Martin Luther King’s greatest activity in the late 60s there were many newspaper articles questioning the LDS church’s stand about Blacks holding the priesthood. I don’t remember Dr. King being one of those voices. I just associate the news articles being coincidental with the Black movement during Dr. King’s time. The Church did not buckle one iota during this time but maintained the same stance they always had, that the church could do more for the salvation of the Black community than any other church and for the time being they were not allowed to hold the priesthood. It was well known among the LDS in those days that that sanction would be repealed someday. Ten years later I was working as a civilian for the US Army in Japan. From what I remember from my far-way perch at that time, those clambering for the Blacks to hold the priesthood had long since died down. However, there are always those few who are and were shouting one thing or another and would love to claim that the church buckled under their pressure. Even newspapers or other journals would love to claim that their pressure from 10 years earlier brought the church around. That is not where the pressure came from. If you want to know where the pressure came from, come listen to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=229PFD_xOAM'> prophet’s voice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=229PFD_xOAM'> Click here. Kukui

I love that picture! It kind of reminds me of my 9th grade annual picture. Just think of how beautiful the young people are today compared to the way we used to look just 50 or 60 years ago. The most beautiful girl 50 years ago would hardly be average today. Course we know that beauty is just skin deep and we all know how deep ugly goes. And just think anyone in that picture, if they are humble (which most of them are), and righteous, and keep the commandments, and receive the ordinances – just think – G-d has the power to raise them up to the highest levels of exaltation. The mind can scarcely comprehend it. Our Father in heaven most likely would have an easier time of getting them to exaltation than me; yet He keeps trying with me. It blows me away. Look at them. Can you see gods in there? Heavenly Father does. [He] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; Makes me happy. Kukui

My understanding does not coincide with your statement. My understanding is that to take on an additional wife was a calling by a priesthood authority. A person didn’t just decide on there own to take on more wives. However, some abused this privilege. The callings went to those men who could afford to support more than one wife. My wife’s family who lived in Nauvoo and Utah were on the poor side and were never asked to participate. The more well to do ones were. The system of polygamy worked well for it’s time and circumstance when there were many more women than men in the wilderness of Utah even though it started earlier. No woman was denied an inheritance of the Lord due to lack of worthy priesthood holders. Kukui

My perception of the way you ask the questions is just because you can’t think of any reason that G-d would deny the priesthood to someone, therefore Mormons have to be racist or were racist at one time. I could be wrong in my perception, but I will try anyway. Consider the following non-doctrinal, highly speculative scenario. I give the following story only as a plausible explanation only. I do not claim it is true. What if – when Cain killed Able, he not only killed Able but he also killed all of Able’s posterity? True statement. Many of Able’s posterity could have been eligible for the priesthood through righteousness. True statement. What if God in his judgment and mercy declared that Cain’s posterity could not hold the priesthood until such time that Able’s posterity could also hold the priesthood? Plausible, but we don’t know. We know that in the early church a few blacks were given the priesthood; like the black family that came west with the saints. When Brigham Young received the revelation that blacks were not to have the priesthood he was not given a plausible explanation such as given above. The Lord just said don’t do it. So Brigham Young was left to his own feelings as to why, and those feelings reflect the feelings of many of his day. Those black folks who received the priesthood did not have the priesthood taken away from them but were ask not to use it. Brigham Young was exactly the type of personality and character the Lord needed to Moses the saints across thousands of miles of wilderness. He was not perfect but, who could have done better? I salute him. I admire him. I am so glad that all worthy males have the right to the priesthood and I cry with gladness when I see what the African saints are doing; it is so thrilling. Kukui

John, you are sooo Mormon. To celebrate we are having a swimming party. You are invited. Wear white! Except for one thing you pretty much have the speculative party line. You said The “before that, I would guess He didn’t exist” is the only glaring mistake. Here I would think that your personal beliefs and the LDS beliefs are nearly the same. He always existed.

It is interesting that you are researching the LDS religion and have come up with those 4 questions. I would suggest that you include in your research an in-depth study of the prophet Joseph Smith. A reading of the Book of Mormon would be invaluable in coming to an understanding of the LDS religion. This may seem odd but you could include in your scholarly research prayer because many of the things you will come across are spiritual in nature and can only be understood in a spiritual frame. I applauded your desire to undertake such research and hope you will treat the subject fairly and not as the pessimists do. Pessimists generally come to the first negative thing they find and stop there while further study may reveal greater understanding. Kukui