Dr T

Hello Shan and Outshined, Shanstress, I was intrigued by that comment too. I don't know if there is a thread on this topic yet (I would bet that there is) but I haven't looked into it. I didn't know that LDS held a Trinitarian view of God. In fact, I thought Smith (or some other church leader) spoke out against it. Something to the effect of "what a monster of a god that would be." Anyone wish to start a thread on that? Thanks

Hello, I'm Dr. T. and I'm a webaholic.

Hello Allmosthumble, I too, am sorry to hear of the loss of your father-in-law. How is your wife or husband doing with the loss? You raise an interesting issue. I look forward to hearing what people here have to say on this topic. Thanks for being curious and willing to look into such a difficult subject. With sympathy, Dr. T

Hi Ray, You have said that a number of times. That is a great topic to explore. We'll have to discuss that issue on another thread. Thanks

Hello Ray, You said, Thanks for your take on that. Dr. T

Hello Ray, You said: Do you see this as "taking over" the worship of God the Father? After all, others will be worshiping you not Him. Just trying to understand, Dr. T

Not much time (sorry), A quick repose, AK said, My question is, "does this really happen?" At this point in time you only worship one God. Does the praise get passed on to the god that preceded him in any way? Earlier you said that you don’t even talk about or even think much about other gods. Thanks, Dr. T

Hello Warrior, Nice to meet you. This is not my topic and your post made me curious. I read your post as being intense about what PC is saying. It sounds like you are saying "there is so much more than the 10 comm!" Is that your stance? Agreed. I'm curious as to whether or not you feel that you have mastered the 10 commandments? What I'm asking is do you still break any of the 10? Thanks, Dr. T

Hello Puska, That is a great question! This is a great example of what I was (ineptly) trying to say in post #25 in the "I think we should talk about Jesus" thread. Questions like this are reasons we should try to understand God's position on what is being revealed to us. Are we here, on earth, to worship God? Is the whole meaning of life to show gratitude, reverence, and praise to God almighty? What does the Bible say about our existence? I’m really asking. Does the belief that becoming a god and having others worship us detract from all praises do to the one and only true God? Playing devils advocate, (which I often do) I think, "Well, I want my kids to grow up and have their own family and experience the same joy I have with my four children" as a response to this question, but the analogy is poor. I am a human and not made to be praised. God is God and worthy of praise (according to the Bible) so the analogy quickly breaks down and the concept quickly seems to become the antithesis of what God demands from us. God, being a jealous God, would he want us to be worshiped? Why did Satan fall? What did Satan want? It doesn’t follow. P.S. can someone tell me how to put a link in a post that goes directly to that part of the thread? Is it possible to put in a link to post #25 on the I think we should talk about Jesus thread and once you click on it you’re taken straight there? Thank you all, Dr. T

Hello AK, Again, I appreciate your contribution to my limited knowledge base. We know that discussion of religious topics often lead to intense emotional reactions by the participants. Unfortunately the emotional upheaval brought about during discourse turn into verbal battles of disrespectful volleys that make those involved even more upset. AK, your ability to lay out your beliefs, in a tactful and civil way, without snide comments, putdowns, etc. adds value to this board and helps justify spending time (which I don't have much of) here. Thank you. “What is behind my interpretation?” you ask. Basically, my interest in finding out about the LDS (and other) religion/beliefs is academic. I hesitate to say that for fear that others will discount my sincerity in finding out about them and their belief system. I truly am a “seeker of truth”- whatever that might be. I have a bias of truth being out there. (cue your X-Files music again). There are sacred writings that claim to be originated from God Himself-like the Bible, so I spent a lot of time there. So, given that the Bible is one of the LDS standards and I’m knowledgeable about it, we can use that as common ground. I understand that religion is packed with far more reaching/important implications/outcomes than my petty academic entertainment. We are potentially talking about our union with God (if one exists) or separation from Him. I understand we can be getting into spiritual information that hold much greater weight and importance than useless mental exercises. Knowing that, spurs me on to use my brain to it’s fullest in seeking Him out. This is why I think (if God is real and people are making claims to Him) it is important (to the point of life and death) that we use all of our mental faculties to discern what is consistent and what is not with what we know. So, in this endeavor, I will try to compare and square our understanding of Him with what scripture tells us. I also have a bias that an infinite, all powerful, omni-everything being would be consistent and unchanging. I don’t think God can “learn to do it better than He already has.” I understand that I am only a human and that not all beliefs can be distilled into logical form. We all have to take a leap of faith in all that we chose to believe. My hope is to learn why people believe the way they do. Can they verbalize it? Do they know why they believe it? Do they know why they want to share that belief with others? Etcetera. Another one of my biases is that God is not contradictory to logic. I don’t feel comfortable saying, “It’s a mystery” and leaving it at that for things that are logical absurd. God making a rock too big for Him to pick up for example is an absurdity and I can’t say, “Well, He can if He wanted to-it’s just a mystery to us… and be satisfied. That is a non-issue to me because of its makeup. Anyway. I have to run back to work. I hope I have more time later. Dr. T

OK :) So, does that mean that you understand that humans are created "things" (regardless of whether you like to be called a thing or not)?

Hello AK, The definition of polytheism that you posted: does not imply that polytheists only worship other gods. It does not say, Polytheism: The worship of and belief in more than one god." (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000) It says or. Or; as in a polytheist can be defined as someone who believes in more than one god (as in Henotheism in the absence of worshiping other gods). Dr. T

Hello Ray, Thank you for your thoughts on this Ray. Again, we are having language (diction) difficulties. I understand that you are doing the best to explain to me you’re understanding of spiritual things and how you interpret scripture. Thank you. I also see that you do not think that we are “things.” Here is the definition of “Thing” from Merriam-Webster online: 1 a : a matter of concern : AFFAIR <many things to do> b plural : state of affairs in general or within a specified or implied sphere <things are improving> c : a particular state of affairs : SITUATION <look at this thing another way> d : EVENT, CIRCUMSTANCE <that shooting was a terrible thing> 2 a : DEED, ACT, ACCOMPLISHMENT <do great things> b : a product of work or activity <likes to build things> c : the aim of effort or activity <the thing is to get well> 3 a : a separate and distinct individual quality, fact, idea, or usually entity b : the concrete entity as distinguished from its appearances c : a spatial entity d : an inanimate object distinguished from a living being 4 a plural : POSSESSIONS, EFFECTS <pack your things> b : whatever may be possessed or owned or be the object of a right c : an article of clothing <not a thing to wear> d plural : equipment or utensils especially for a particular purpose <bring the tea things> 5 : an object or entity not precisely designated or capable of being designated <use this thing> 6 a : DETAIL, POINT <checks every little thing> b : a material or substance of a specified kind <avoid fatty things> 7 a : a spoken or written observation or point b : IDEA, NOTION <says the first thing he thinks of> c : a piece of news or information <couldn't get a thing out of him> 8 : INDIVIDUAL <not a living thing in sight> 9 : the proper or fashionable way of behaving, talking, or dressing -- used with the 10 a : a mild obsession or phobia <has a thing about driving>; also : the object of such an obsession or phobia b : something (as an activity) that makes a strong appeal to the individual : FORTE, SPECIALTY <letting students do their own thing -- Newsweek> <I think travelling is very much a novelist's thing -- Philip Larkin> Given that the common use for “thing” includes individuals, etc, I keep coming back to verses like John 1:3 (which is as clear as can be): ”All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.." KJV. No disrespect intended, if you change meanings of common words I can see how you get side tracked from the logical conclusion. Thanks, Dr. T

Very nice AK.

Henotheism, while worshiping only one god, is in fact polytheism (in my understanding). Giving it a different name does not diminish the fact in a belief in multiple deities. Dr. T

P.C., I think that was intended for me but I do not think he meant that this was a Mexican meal conversation: Taco (Dr. T), included Burrito (Traveler) included Nachos (P.C.)! not included Add your thoughts Dr. T

Hello all, Wow, great thoughts! There is a lot here. I don't want to takeover someone else’s thread but I see similarities in the last 3 posts and would like to address them all. I want to continue and reply to the last three posts if it is ok with the originator of this thread. Just let me know and then we can either start a new thread or just continue on this one. Also, as a side note, I initially started frequenting this site to get an understanding of the LDS believer’s religion, "Direct from the horses mouth" so to speak, so as to understand how to best work with them in my profession. You guys are broadening my curiosity and making me desirous of deeper discussion, which I am just starting to get into here. There seems to be a reaction to looking at those things philosophically. Philosophy however is from the roots: Philos (philia) someone who loves something/befriended something, and Sophos (Sofia) wisdom. What we try to get at with notions of intelligence or knowledge of notions of the like. Scientific knowledge like episteme is also very important to me. I hope that this type of exploration doesn’t spur you to ask me to leave this site. I will try to be as respectful as possible. I am not here to try and debunk, tear down your beliefs, or to propogate anti-mormon sentiment. I am just curious as to the core questions of life. The existential and transcendental questions and answers that religion puts forth and that you all base your lives and eternity on. I’m interested in hearing what you guys, who live the LDS life day in and day out, have to say on these issues. How do you justify those beliefs and how you would respond/how do you put into words your reasons for belief. So, as a have a common standard by which to gauge your responses, I will use my understanding of what the Bible has to say on the topics. Thank you all and look forward to continuing our discussions, Dr. T

Hello AK, I’m pleased to meet you. You appear to be a fun and thoughtful person. I look forward to hearing more of your ideas. Thanks for contributing to this thread. Yes sir. I agree. We are all human and limited by our finite mind. This however, does not eliminate the need to use what has been given to us/developed to it's full potential. Why else have this emoticon ? lol The inability to transverse an actual infinite series of events has nothing to do with Zeno’s Paradox. People who are unfamiliar with both arguments (above) may be tricked into thinking they are cut from the same cloth buy they are not (at all). If we are saying that gods have created god upon god, for infinity, please explain how we are able to make it to this point in time. I also don't think that we can side step the sequential nature of this belief because, (in my admittedly very limited understanding) people eternally progress from a set point in time (like after this life on earth), then others follow contingent on that progression/event. This is supposedly continued from someone else attaining goodhood, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum. How is that non linear? I do find them very entertaining. I do not find them fruitless in the least. In fact, discovering falsity through such an exercise would be the most fruitful thing possible? What if this false belief leads to a true knowledge of God almighty? What if the great deceiver is defeated by the Holy Ghost enlightens us though just such a discussion and puts us on the right path of the knowledge of the true God? What if, what if, what if... Anyway, pleasure to meet you AK. I look forward to what I can learn from you. Dr. T

Hello allmosthumble, Thanks for your ideas. Yes, logic is based on sequence. From prepositions, certain things follow. Given certain prepositions, there must be a conclusion that is immutable/incontrovertible. That is what logic is all about. I find it interesting that you see logic as diametrically opposed to faith. Are you suggesting that all logic goes out the window for faith, emotions, etc. are invalid or no real? Thank you, Dr. T

I guess there was talk about the Judas Gospel that was supposed to be destroyed due to heresy. I agree, Huge (BenRaines), becoming well read expands our knowledge. Dr. T

Col 1:16-17 says For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Are you saying that this list are not things? Humans don't fit into this criteria? Are you saying Jesus was literally the physical offspring of God the Father? There was a sexual union of Heavenly Father and Mary? Thanks

Hello Ray, Yes, sir, you're correct. Please know that I am not trying to dismiss your atttempts to inform me about your beliefs. You did, on a number of occasions try to explain your take on this issue. As you read in that other thread, I am having problems understanding what you were trying to say. You were patient with my questions and did try to answer in a variety of ways. I still kept getting hung up on the word "after" in that verse and the apparent "role" you kept placing on people's actions. I've asked these two gentlemen because I'm interested in hearing someone say, "it is a combination of what we do with what God has done", "It is 100% God's grace," "We earn our own salvation," etc. Bottom line: I want to know, Is salvation based 100% on the grace of God or not? Thanks

You are saying that Jesus didn't create our soul. The Bible talks about him creating all things. Here are some examples: Col 1:16 & 17, John 1:3, Ps 33:6, Eph 3:9, Rev. 4:11. Thoughts?

Hello Traveler & P.C., So which of your faiths, with regard to salvation, is based 100% on the grace of God? Thanks

That's an interesting idea Ray. What do your scriptures say about that? Dr. T