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Everything posted by mordorbund

  1. Gerasim, you reawakened this thread with your question. Have you gotten a satisfactory response?
  2. I like what Vahnin posted earlier: For me it brings to new light the phrase "they will know, even as they are known". We will enjoy the same mind that the Father and the Son have. We will have the same concern for others that they (the Godhead) have for us. What I mean by experiential omniscience is the difference between the Spirit telling you "you really shouldn't do this thing that damages your spirit" because he has knowledge of such, versus the Son testifying to you "It was really hellish when I felt the consequences of the action you're contemplating." It also means that the Son is especially able to judge us because we can never tell him "you don't know what it's like to be me." He proxy-walked in each of our shoes.I think we've covered the aspect of oneness that we can attain to if we are faithful (joining the cause, mingling in the assembly of the gods). I'm convinced there has to be an exclusive aspect of the Godhead to limit it to just the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Do you think there is more to the exclusive aspect than just the legalese that the Godhead is comprised of these three and no more? Or is there an attribute/qualification that makes them such?
  3. So one step we can take to partake of the Godhead is to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. And your comment on their knowledge of everyone's thoughts makes it sound like omniscience is a pre-requisite to being in the Godhead. Alma 7:13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me. But it sounds like experiential omniscience is not a requirement.
  4. Is this oneness what makes them the Godhead, or is there something else? So when we give our will over to God, to we then partake of the Godhead? I tend to think so, but I'm not entirely sure what that means. But that doesn't mean that we would be one of the Godhead, just one with the Godhead (I'm not complaining about that by any means). So there's another property of Godhead that we haven't touched on yet that makes a person a member.
  5. It was pointed out earlier that much of the knowledge we do have about the nature of God came because somebody pondered and asked. By your same line of thinking, why do we need the Book of Mormon when it states in the intro that the Bible contains the fulness of the gospel? Why should we care if God said anything to anyone else? His word in the Bible tells us everything we need for our salvation. If you don't care about the topic, disengage. Otherwise, enjoy the variety of perspectives and insights of others.
  6. And the reason why I started a fresh thread is because the others seemed to be an attempt to explain the Godhead to people of different faith who have a different foundation from us. I thought it might be nice to have a discussion that starts on the same page, and doesn't require anyone knowing what ousia is.
  7. I think it's talking about a concern for each other's welfare. Much like Enos or Mosiah's sons, who were not satisfied at their own assurance of forgiveness but then pled and worked on behalf of others so they could enjoy the same blessings. I don't think that's the same oneness the Godhead have, but that's probably because I don't understand how it applies to them. The most analagous relationship that I can think of is that just as the members of the Godhead have concern for us, so we should have concern for each other and develop that godly trait. As I was writing this, I saw that this trait is indeed one way that the Godhead is one (I do think that their unity extends to their character). This concern/love is displayed by all 3 members of the Godhead in the scriptures - the Father so loved the world... the Son weeps over Jerusalem as a mother hen... and the Spirit broods upon creation. Vahnin, do you think the oneness in the scripture you cited has other application with respect to the Godhead?
  8. I think the origin of God (including his genealogy) is very important. If God has always been God, and has always been as he is, then what hope do I have of ever becoming like him? Is it our claim that the Supreme Intelligence, out of the goodness of his heart, has extended equality to us (through his Son) through a program that was unavailable to himself? Or is he exposing a process that he's been through so that we can walk the same path and reap the same reward? Or is this a path that's been walked for eons and God had a guide to that path the same as us? If we do not understand God, we do not understand ourselves.
  9. Truth be told, I have found Vahnin's posts on discussions like these to be very helpful. I'm sure we're all aware of the accusation that we aren't really Christian because we believe in a whole slew of Gods, including God and his father and his father (I would call them Godfather and Great-Godfather, but it seems almost blasphemous). Before I came to this site, I could very well see their side of things - that we only worship our God because he hasn't revealed anything about the others and what their relationship is with us. Vahnin has pointed out that this model of endless generations of Gods is not necessarily what we believe (it may be what you believe, but it is not a teaching of the Church). I haven't fully aligned myself with Vahnin's way of thinking, but I am glad that he's pointed out that most of what we think we know about the origin of God is tradition/speculation built on a few quotes. We need to re-examine our foundations and see which are solid.
  10. I'm treating your 2 Nephi quote as a non sequitur because (johannine comma aside) I think the Godhead reference is just a passing one and not the main subject. My reading of this is that there are 3 testimonies that Jesus is the Son of God: The Water - by which he showed submission to his Father (and his Father validated by saying Jesus was his beloved Son)The Blood - by which he completed his mission and his submission. This (combined with the resurrection for LDS) is the sign of his divine SonhoodThe Spirit - by which all may gain the same witness the apostles had, even in modern times when there are no longer eye witnessesAll three testify that Jesus is the Son of God. Similarly, by these three witnesses we are born again (with the Water being the water of our own baptism in similitude of Christ's). The earlier verses even drop the term born of God to point to this.
  11. I can understand some reticence to engage in this dialogue since it is often a cover for more nefarious motives (and I am fairly new here - so you won't know me from Lucy). I'll proceed and hope that trust and discussion pick up in the morning. I'll start, just to prime the pump. So the way I think of each member being God, while still there being only one God is that "God" is an overloaded operator. It has two different meanings within the same sentence. So the first three statement I listed above used the term "God" as being a member of the Godhead, while the seventh used the term "God" as a synonym for Godhead. Our priesthood presidencies are patterned after the Godhead in a similar manner. We refer to all three members of the First Presidency as "President", when there really is only one president of the Church. Yet each one can be given the fulness of the Presidency when they go out and visit solo (similarly Christ had the fulness of the Godhead while on earth). There are other ways that I think the 7th statement is reconciled with the other 6, but I'll wait for a few more posts before I share those because I'd love to hear some other perspectives.
  12. I now have the lengthy opinions of an anonymous author at lightplanet, Elder Holland, and President Hinckley. What are your thoughts Gerasim?
  13. And I'll post the obvious as well. Yes, they're one in purpose, but what does that mean to you? What is that purpose? Is that the only qualification for being in the Godhead? etc
  14. I'm aware of the flame war that this thread could potentially start, so I'm asking that only Latter-day Saints post and that they remain respectful of people of all faiths (including their own). I've seen many threads where a pos(t)er will ask us to explain a Bible verse (usually in Isaiah) and it ends in an argument about whether the Trinity is bogus and how presumptuous we are to think we can become gods. I have seen in these threads that not every Christian believes the same thing (thanks PrisonChaplain for your many useful posts), and it got me wondering if we do too. (This is the last part of the intro I promise). I've observed that there are 7 statements that most Christians (including LDS) believe regarding God (I know there's some who don't believe 4-6, but we do so I'm keeping them :)): The Father is GodThe Son is GodThe Holy Ghost is GodThe Father is not the Son; nor is the Son the FatherThe Son is not the Holy Ghost; nor is the Holy Ghost the SonThe Holy Ghost is not the Father; nor is the Father the Holy GhostGod is oneHow do you reconcile the 7th statement with the other 6? What does that mean to you? What does your answer mean for God's children?
  15. I don't think anyone here can give you a good reason to get sealed for eternity if you don't already have a good reason to be married for life.
  16. I think Mystic's confusion (and I can relate) is that once the account is set up, is it still contingent on the membership record. I know you can't get an account without the membership record. But what about after that? Are there two database tables being kept? One of all potential website members and one of actual website members? (in which case you can be removed from one without affecting the other.) Or is your username and password just two more properties for an alread-existing entry? (in which case you can be removed from the website without it affecting your church membership, but if you're removed from the church membership, you'll also be barred from the site.)
  17. Gotcha. Wish me luck on my excommunication tomorrow, and I'll let you know on Mon -- hey what are you trying to get me into?!!
  18. I understand (from another thread) that it's difficult to dress modestly when you have a large chest.
  19. I think of them as being separate generations because D&C 76 tells us that "the inhabitants [of other worlds] are begotten sons and daughters of [Christ]." And I mentioned earlier that I tend to think that each of these earths have their own Adam. So I see multiple Adams for one Christ.
  20. We could claim all kinds of arguments for this based on historical precedents and entymology, but the relevant answer for why this church dictates this amount is that Joseph received a revelation on it. See D&c 119:3-4 There's a great quote from Joseph Smith that members like to quote. "God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 149). About three years later, he gave a similar quote. "There was nothing made known to these men (well-known church leaders) but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days." (History of the Church 5:2) This remark was given after the Prophet gave the Endowment for the first time. So I chuckle on the inside at the perception that the temple ordinances are secret, since they're secrets we want to let everyone in on (in the proper context of course).
  21. I went to my bookshelf to look up the full story in The Book of Noah (it's next to The Sealed Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith). Turns out it was a literal, fully-immersed baptism - by proxy.
  22. I'm not a fan of the spots you're wearing. And the material -- maybe you should try wool instead of leather.
  23. That is correct. We also pray our way into heaven. And proselyte, and preach, and testify our way into heaven. We also abstain, and forsake, and repent our way into heaven. We also serve, and minister, and administer our way into heaven. We also praise, and rebuke, and forgive our way into heaven. If tithing is all that's holding you back, I think I'd like to trade vices with you.
  24. Maybe I understand "one eternal round" in the wrong way, but I imagine that when one "generation" is done, then you start on the next (just like singing Row, Row, Row Your Boat). I haven't been so bold as to settle whether the "generation" should be associated with Christ or Adam. If we associate the Grand Council with the generation of Christ, then Satan does indeed go around and torment other earths. If, on the other hand, we associate the Council with Adam and his posterity, then Satan is probably only on this earth.The question of a Satan on other earths gets a bit more fuzzy since we need to account for his myriad roles. Let's start with daily temptations. That one is simple in my mind because I can find plenty in life to tempt me without an imp or dark prince coercing me. I'll sum it up by saying we don't just have heavenly and hellish beings enticing us, but our own minds as well (should probably be a different thread if we want to go there). When Satan acts as the accuser (think Job), that role may be filled by other children of Adam (of that other hypothetical earth). The one that I don't have a simple answer for is when he gives the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to Adam and Eve. If no one rebelled in the Council, then who takes this fallen role? Maybe it's not even needed. Although innocent, perhaps the primordial parents can choose mortality without a tempter (we made a similar decision to leave Father's presence and enter mortality - I don't think we necessarily needed a tempter). Or perhaps a clever God has a backup plan for a Satan-less Fall. I like to think sometimes that Area 51 is a tourist stop for the aliens before shuttling to Jerusalem .Your line of thinking reminds me of the anthrocentric notions of the Universe. Because we are here, we wonder if they are out there. But if the sludge didn't align right, there wouldn't be a mind in the whole Universe to entertain such ridiculous thoughts. So the action is here because we are here. Let's suppose that after the Ascension, Christ took up residence on Earth[Awesome]. In fact, he's been living there the whole time with all the descendants of Adam[Awesome]. Let's even crank it up a notch and say that anytime a prophet from this earth was taken up to an unknown mountain, that mountain was on Earth[Awesome]. Then while you are sitting at your computer wondering why all the action of the life and crucifixion of the Son of God happens here, some dude[Awesome] is wondering why he gets the privilege of living in the neighborhood of Christ - which is so popular that alien prophets come to visit. On a Universal scale, where is the action really happening? I hope I got my points across English is my second language - I started with baby talk, and now can't even remember that anymore.