Fourth_Horseman

I see what you are saying. And I admit my knowledge is not perfect, far from. I may even be misquoting. I has been a very long time since I was involved in this stuff. But this is the passage I was alluding to with the whole Moses thing and have based most of my argument off of. Last time I checked Mormons accept the King James Bible, old and New testement as scripture and therefor true. King Jame Bible Exodus 20:1-4 1/And God spake all these words saying, 2/I am the Lord thy god which have brought thee out of the land of Eygpt, out of the house of bondage 3/Thou shalt not have ANY other GODS before ME 4/Thou shalt not make unto thee ANY graven IMAGE (Angel Morani?) or ANY LIKENESS of ANY THING that is IN HEAVEN (Angel Morani???) above, or that is in the water under the earth. No where does God imply he has a son, will ever send a son or plans to send a son. Also wern't you saying "Man cannot directly communicate with god because he Is "fallen?" How did Moses and evey other prophet before him communicate with heaven? You said and I directly quote: "it isn't like Moses was directly dealing with the Father all this time and God just changed his mind. Since the fall Christ has been the mediator." This implies Chirst IS God. This means the Jewish God is Jesus Christ. Have You just told me that Jesus Christ is God and God is Jesus Christ? If Jesus has been the Mediator since the "Fall" would he have not been the one talking to Moses in this passage? Trinity? Please enlighten me further, my knowledge of LDS Theology is, as already stated, very limited. Why does god punish all men for the sins of Adam and Eve (since you say we are in a "fallen" state)? Why does god need a son? Why did his son come when he did? Man had "fallen" well before the established time of christ, so were all those people doomed to the terestial Kingdom? Why would god do that to those particular people? Why is the Mormon church the only on that can still communicate with Jesus? Why can't Catholics or Evangleicals? Don't they believe in the same scripture and same Jesus? by the way I only noticed the No Graven Image thing and morani while I was reading this passage. Not a big deal, just breaking a commandment, but I just found that interesting.

indeed. I probably did sound a bit pretenious in my first post...Oh well, You have to sound like you know what your saying, but it also offends people alot easier.

Such Negativity. I'm suprised, always thought Mormons were the nice folk. Besides, I knew I would get ganged up on in this arguement. The chances of someone who agrees with me joining this argument is very low. It's going to be 20 Mormons ganging up on me. 20 Minds can come up with a lot more to throw at me than my 1 mind can come up to throw at all 20 of their arguments. Besides is it against site rules to disagree with some aspects of Mormon doctrine? In that case why even bother letting people select a religion at registration. As for not coming to learn, you are very wrong. I may have presented my argument as one of which I'd answered myself but I was simply showing my thought process. It was more a Thiesis rather than a question. Beside it make no sense that god would tell us to "worship no other god before me" and then say "Oh, I forgot to mention that its A-ok to refer to my son for inquiries, I changed my mind from the time I talked to Moses. Oh yeah I also forgot to mention to Moses I had a son, yah, well I do now. k bye"

A most excellent point. My thought on the Henotheistic debate would be is which God do they really worship? As has been mentioned many times in this thread Mormons say they worship God the Father. But they adopt Christ into so many aspects of their worship it is almost to then point that no matter what you say you do, you actions imply you worship two gods in equal, or near equal measure. This would not be a henotheistic model with their being many gods and only one being worshiped but a a Polytheistic model. This topic can be disscused very deeply and I'm interested to see what people have to say on the matter.

I simply put forth my agrument and evidence and wanted to see what others thought of it. Ozzy (First Post) was exactly what I wanted to see. A structured response that took what I said and examined it, then had a counter argument. I like to see what others think and their logic for such. But Logic can be a two way street leading to some very hard fought arguments where both sides logic can be correct.

Why would you do this if God is the creator of eveything? Mormon Ideology to me seems to be slapping together Jewish Ideology (old Testement) and Christian/Catholic Ideology (New Testment) thowing in the Book or Mormon and tryin to patch it all together. You say that mormons exalt christ in all things but every once of "actual worship" goes toward the Father. That is exactly what I was pointing out. Mormons put Christs name in eveything. Why call yourelf CHIRSTians. Why put JUSUS' name at the end of prayer. Why have "Church of JESUS CHIRST" in your name. Why would you do this if you praising god? It makes no sense to have everything be about Jesus and then just as you did say "We are actually praising the father." Its like me talking about the vice president doing everything the president does but then when people ask me what I'm talking about saying "Oh I was actually talking about the president." Unless of course you beleive in the Trinity...oh wait. You also fail to disscus my point about the trinity. You simply disregard it as being completely untrue because an ALL POWERFUL being could not possibly "be immortal, die and become immortal again" But all the same fallacies can be said about a non-trinity based arguemnt. Why did God have to kill his son to save man if he is all powerful, whats the point? Why did Jesus, who by his vary nature would already be a god, have to die to become Immortal? Who is Jesus' Mother (SHe is never discussed anywhere in any scripture)? Unless of course God simply spawned Jesus like he did the universe, but since god "Created Man in his own image" it would be suggested he created procreation in the same manner of which he procreated, once agains bringing the question of "who is the Holy Mother?" such a question is nullified in a Trinity Agrument as God is Jesus and therefore did not need create himself. Your tone suggests you believe God and Jesus seperate entities and you also by claiming Jesus as the "Son of God" to be a god himself. Therefore you beileive in Two Gods and are therefore Polythiestic. THat was the orignal question, and your arguement made no notion of disproving it. If anything it proved it more.

Athiest. Here to provide a counter argument in religous discussion. I think it is a great danger to be surrounded by only one ideology. It's a great way to breed extremist however.

These are the saddest I Know of. I've listened to some of the stuff people are posting and HE says "Sad" not "Calm" I guarentee these are some of the saddest songs you will hear, especially the two Ulver songs and the Led Zepplin one. The other two are pretty sad but It's pretty open to interpretation on those two. "Eos" by Ulver This is honestly the saddest song I've ever heard. Incredibly Depressing. Listen at your own risk. "Cleansing" By Wolves in the Throne Room The first four minutes are absoulutly captivating. The last five are a brutal unloading of Black Metal to counteract the first part. "No Quarter" By Led Zepplin. Very depressing, the singing is very sad sounding and the music fits perfectly. "Veterans of the Thousand Physic Wars (Live version)" By Blue Oyster Cult The intro is bueatiful and sorrowful. The reason i said Live version is for the most bueatiful, 4 miunte, solo in this version over the studio version. "The Future Sound of Music" By Ulver Another incredibly sad sounding Ulver song, not nearly as much as Eos but still, worth a listen on a sad day.

Appears the chain was broken, So I'll restart it. It's a long one but I like it a lot.

Never Thought i'd see another Viking Metal fan in these parts. This is a band similar to Ensiferum.

I got to thinking one day and came up with this nice little thought. Mormons don't believe in the Trinity. They say Jesus Christ, God, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit are all seperate entities. Therefore they beleive in atleast 2 if not three (depending on whether you count the Holy Ghost) Gods. Polytheisim is the belief in many (two or more) gods. Therefore if you reject the Trinity and are christian you are Polythiestic. Now here is the part that puts me off. God told Moses "To put no God before me" and this is a commandment. Mormons believe the Commandments to be a divine mandate form heaven. Yet how can they claim to obey the commandments and call themselves CHRISTians. They end their prayers "In the name of JESUS CHRIST amen." They claim JESUS CHRIST is the SON OF GOD and the SAVIOR of man kind. That sounds like putting another god before god, albiet he is the son of god. Now you undoubtedly will be scrambling for the "reply" button and be picking apart my argument. You claim that "We put Jesus' name in everything but we still beleive God is more important." Well let me tell you, thats like having your main beliefs in small print, because I never got that memo at church. You may also claim JESUS is technically not a 'God' through some sort of scriptural interpretation nonsense. But in the end mormon doctrine:It's all about JESUS and God simply taking a sideline to everything. Think about it. Someone please explain this to me.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

always have to bring up the question of "What is God".

He pretty much sumed up the "translation" of the book of mormon in one go. Amazing what conclusions a man comes to when he truly thinks about a religion. I'm not saying there isn't a god, I'm just syaing it should each mans own responsiblity to find "God" without having a certain doctrine thrust upon him.