jdf135

A little late to this discussion but I'm curious about the contributor's thoughts: Is it possible that the day of the Saviors 2nd coming is NOT set in regards to a calendar day but more determined by the conditions of the world? Could that day be flexible depending on how soon people reach a given threshold of wickedness? Was God waiting until the people were ripe in iniquity until he sent the flood or was the "ripeness" already known by God (I am in a phase of pondering the spectrum of pre-destiny vs. foreknowledge)?

Thanks for mention of peace. I think this is a much more appropriate word for how one might feel when living gospel principles. I know it has been used much in the church. I personally feel it should be used much more and possibly in place of the word joy in many circumstances.

I am very frustrated by the way the English word "joy" gets used in gospel discussion and would maybe like to find a different word or just be clearer on what we mean when we say "joy." To me "joy" is not a productive word because it makes lots of people feel they are failing when they are living the gospel teachings the best they know how but are still not feeling "joyful." I know there is a lot of discussion about the difference between "happiness" and "joy" - "joy" meaning more durable happiness -- but there seems to be an implication in the church that "joy" is an unending absence of sorrow or stream of contentment that comes from living the gospel to its fullest. President Nelson's recent talk on joy gives some insight to a possible, better definition of the word saying, "If we focus on the joy that will come to us, or to those we love, what can we endure that presently seems overwhelming, painful, scary, unfair, or simply impossible?" (emphasis added). In this case he is not really talking about "joy" in the sense of persisting, current contentment but talking about how we should focus on the idea of potential "joy" in the future which thought will give us the strength to endure this life. In the body of his talk, he seems to suggest that joy is not a persistent feeling but a potential, temporary state amidst affliction. I don't think Jesus was "joyful" at the very moment he was bleeding at every pore or having nails put in his hands. I can believe he may have been anticipating great joy in the future and as a result was able to endure, but was he really feeling "persisting contentment" when he called out "why has thou forsaken me?" Jesus, the most perfect of us all, is described by Isaiah as "a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." Multitudes of prophets -- from Jeremiah to George Albert Smith -- seemingly had moments of immense anguish. Did they still have "joy" even in their despair or did they just have a faith in future joy??? Should we maybe stop using the word "joy" in gospel discussions and instead find words that better describe the satisfaction the gospel might bring?

This might explain the lack of visible movement in my life.

So, President Nelson's talk this morning: If I have faith the size of a mustard seed, I can move mountains. So, if I have the faith of a sub-atomic particle - say a lepton - what can I do?

I'm going to assume this was a Freudian slip. Regardless, although I have not read Thomas Sowell I have read OF his views and I have read free market hero Milton Freidman who advocated free-market pharmaceuticals. "Government be hanged! Let a few thousand people die and then the people will know for themselves whether that pill is safe or not" (paraphrased, of course). You and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on what the "facts" are. Yes, I am "liberal" if that means I don't believe free market philosophy is the solution to everything (see above). I personally would consider myself a "moderate" in that I believe good faith conversation is better than vilification and that compromise is not always compromise. Sometimes it means everybody working together to come up with the best solution to a problem. I will admit to one error though: FDR was elected four times, not three.

I think conspired is a bit strong. Fake moon landings and JFK killed by CIA too? Not sure this is an eternal truth. As has been alluded to above, no one solution fits every situation. I only hope the Lord looks at all MY complexities before making a final judgement. People are complex and their difficult situations are complex. Not every physically, intellectually and educationally handicapped person (or child of God, for that matter) needs the same type of help. And, @anatess2 not all of them has family or church or even charitable organizations (a huge number of which are for profit despite claims) to help them and my heart aches for those terrified migrants clutching on to the slimmest of hopes that they will find something better for their children. I know my taxes are not used efficiently. That has always been the case since taxes were invented. However, frankly, I am happy to pay taxes to help my defective Canadian health care system; it's better than no system. I am so glad my special needs daughter gets community support through government-funded agencies because I just don't have the knowledge and resources to best to help her all the time. And, as deficient as the education system is, I am glad the government helps out so I don't have to come up with tuition to pay for elementary schooling for my kids (e.g. most of Africa). And @Mores, I am not sure what you define as proper. I don't know when you were a child and what country you lived in but I am not sure there was EVER a system that "worked." All I know is that in the early 30's, when 25% or more of the US population was unemployed, a gajillion banks went defunct and took hundreds of millions of dollars of hard-earned money with them and the soup lines when around the block, the system was NOT great. The "free" market didn't work for them. In fact, a vast majority of people of my mother's generation were so incredibly grateful for FDR and his social programs -- so grateful in fact that they elected him three times (the commie, Democrat rascal). I am sorry y'all. I am open for discussion but there are just too many generalizations here about how horrible "government" has been. Less of it is not always better. Try Libyan/Sudanses/Somalian anarchy for awhile and you may decide governments are not so bad. I am as cynical as the next guy about politicians. They are mostly self-serving, ignoramuses. But this democracy stuff is still the best we have until the rapture and we should be glad we have it. We just have to keep pushing to have government work FOR us not around us. And, this may actually mean you vote Democrat.

The physically, intellectually and educationally handicapped? Where do they go? Health care in the U.S. was failing for millions before Obamacare. All I can say is, as an American ex-pat, the Canadian, universal health care system can be extremely frustrating and Canadians are always complaining about it: long waits, irregular coverage between provinces, limited access to cutting-edge treatments etc. BUT try to take it away......and they would bring out their pitchforks and blunderbusses to protect it. The socialized system is flawed but Canadians would rather have the imperfect, universal care than the free-market (US) alternative. We never have to wonder if we can afford to take our sick kids to the doctor. The US has friendly, diplomatic relationships with many countries that have brutally oppressive and corrupt governments, rampant crime, lawlessness and in which countries the citizens have little hope for a reasonable quality of life due to situations beyond their control. I do not like unlawful activity including unlawful entry to any country. However, if I were poor and in fear of my life, I might try to get my kids to a safe place even if I had to be sneaky. I don't know the solution. But as a developing disciple of Jesus, unconditionally rejecting he who "putteth up his petition" to me (Mosiah 4: 16-23) -- in this case thousands of people who are "putting up petitions" -- makes me uncomfortable. Maybe instead of 5000 National Guards, we need 5000 more immigration workers, healthcare providers, counselors, educators etc. at our borders? This is a pretty broad statement. However, as a former teacher, I do believe there is a decline in educational efficacy. Certainly access to higher education is becoming more difficult (I paid $600 a semester 35 years ago for tuition, my son pays $6000+). My only thoughts on this is that the new church emphasis on learning in the home, and not just Gospel learning, is key -- if only for our own kids. IN SUMMARY..... I'm not disagreeing with you entirely but the biggest problem with the political environment today (and some of your comments above) is over-simplification of problems and their solutions (e.g tariffs on EVERYTHING). This why we need dialogue between parties and meaningful discussion (councils?) to find multi-faceted and functional solutions. Too bad there really are no moderates running that can reach the minds and hearts of the people.

This would be awesome. I have actually tried to do this in my own life. Seriously. I have a spreadsheet to help me with decision making. However I have found it has major limitations in that I cannot foresee all mitigating factors. Stuff just gets in the way and messes up my plans! Subsequently, I am afraid we will always have to make final decisions based on philosophy (principles, the spirit) rather than science. If only I were Vulcan and reason and logic could prevail....

Sorry if name-calling was inferred. It was not my intent. I hope that mikbone is not offended.

Note: I didn't say that. Just mentioned I was worried about the thread. For the record I am in favor of governments limiting certain activities (e.g. speeding, drunk driving, poor sanitation practices etc.). The hard part is who decides what to limit, who to limit and how much to limit and when. I don't know the answer. However I do not feel that anarchy or even libertarianism is the best way; too many people who do not know how to limit themselves. Back to @mrshorty question about HPV vaccination, I had the same question for my kids and so far I have had none of them immunized. I am not in favor of mandating this particular vaccine because if my child is chaste, they have already made a choice that will keep themselves and others safe. However, I recognize this may not be true for a future spouse who may not have been chaste in the past. They might ultimately hurt my child. It's a tough one. Should governments be allowed to even ask if a youth plans to be sexually active with more that one partner and if yes, should the government then REQUIRE them to be vaccinated? Maybe. For example, if I knew an individual was going to visit a place where ebola is rampant and that they would be returning to possibly infect others, I might expect government to require them to be vaccinated before they left for the sake of public safety. In this case I would say the mandate is justified because the travelling individual is making a choice beforehand to put themselves in harm's way and potentially threaten others. 'tsall about choices and the seriousness of one person's choices on others.

Depends on what the prognosis is for NOT having the tibia operated on. I am just concerned that this forum is turning into a vaccine denial site. My rights only extend as far as your nose. Once my supposed "rights" start to affect others in a negative way, I am limiting their rights and agency. Fact.

Usually. But I know a guy who has been suffering coming on a year now. He is miserable. It is apparently EXTREMELY painful and can cause postherpetic neuralgia, permanent vision loss, facial paralysis, and hearing and/or balance problems (which my acquaintance has had).

Not that I disagree with any of the above comments but we also know a bit more about Pontius Pilate. (Luke 13:1) 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilæans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. This suggests he was a fairly typical Roman tyrant who apparently desecrated the temple by killing Jews during their sacred, religious ceremonies. Historical accounts of his other activities suggest he delighted in taunting and irritating the Jews (see Josephus; Philo) and his activities actually exacerbated the Jewish rebellions for which he was eventually removed from his position. As much as I feel for his place as a judge in this circumstance, I don't feel much sympathy for the man. Bad guy.

I feel so bad for you. this may not completely help but.... - try to feel sorry for them and pray for them. These unkind people may not be out to get YOU in particular. They may be people that are negative towards many others, and as a result THEY cannot be truly happy. It is hard to feel sorry for people who are mean but the Saviour did suggest we pray for them. - The Saviour said "do good to them" that despitefully hate you and persecute you. That may mean baking cookies for them. However, in my opinion, this is the pinnacle of Christianity and not always something I can do. But I have seen it work - although not always. - know you are not alone. I have stories I could tell of bishops and branch presidents suffering at the hands of unkind members - including a rock through a Bishop's window!. I also know you are also not alone in that the Saviour suffered at the hands of people who should have loved and sustained. Matt. 5:11 - You also have kind people on this site that can and will pray for you . finally, If I can offer anything it is to consider the new emphasis on strengthening our immediate family. Hopefully your family are your friends (including your kids). Cling to them as much as you can because they are truly the eternal type of friends and hopefully your home can be a refuge from the storm. With sincere concern, One who will be praying.

Amen AND Amen.

So "endless" torment is endless only until repentance? ( 2 Ne 9:19, 26; 28:23 etc. ) . Sounds merciful.

We just had a discussion at home about the extent of Jesus' atonement. I am concerned that people are thinking he atoned to take away ALL pain - which I don't think is true. He takes away the pain of sin as we repent but in regards to physical and emotional suffering not related to sin, he "knows how to succor them" or in other words comfort and sustain them - not take away the physical and emotional pain. Am I wrong?

Is it enough to keep kindness at the forefront of my heart?

Your kind comments have lead me to some good pondering. Nevertheless, when I look at my limitations and the immensity of suffering, "What then shall I do about it?"

I believe this but in cases of mass devastation, the good is hard to find and long in coming (next life?). So should we work to alleviate or stop tragedies? Jesus suggested we should, but I just can't in some cases. I just watched a documentary about homeless children in Bangladesh. I can't really help the Bangladeshi children unless maybe I abandoned my family and sold all I have and moved there and gave away all my goods. How much do I sacrifice to help others? Every news reports says I am soon to burn up in a flaming ball of CO2 very soon but my buying an electric car will have 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001% effect on greenhouse gases. IF 2 billion Asians suddenly stop burning coal something MIGHT change. I Have been taking regular "fasts" from the news 'cuz I can't help people in Sudan or Venezuela. So why do I feel so guilty while seeing all this? Maybe I shouldn't even bother thinking about this stuff because, well, good always come from tragedy(?).

I hope you will indulge me as I rant. Your post made me think of several things. 1) In regards to bias, prejudice, ill feelings etc. I believe change can only come from the inside as a gift from the Spirit, through diligent prayer, repentance, and proactive faith (acting in all ways towards him as if you are NOT biased until the Lord changes your heart). I've been there and it is hard, but it works (there's a story here about the girl I took to Prom). Anyway... 2) In regards to accepting callings, I like it when the Lord confirms my callings to me but it hasn't always happened. I have accepted many callings not feeling "good" about them. I am suffering in one right now. I was called to Scouts and Deacon's quorum. I am an arthritic, asthmatic with cardiac arrhythmia who used to be a school teacher but quit because the stress of dealing with kids was destroying my health. Two years into this calling I asked the Bishop if he really felt inspired to call me because if he had any doubt about his inspiration, I wanted OUT! He said he didn't have any doubt. I am still in. I have also been a YM president twice (a calling which I feel I totally bombed both times). I have also been a ward choir director for over 20 years (not consecutively) - a calling for which I am qualified and trained - but I am getting a bit tired of. Nevertheless I am still choir director and probably will be until death. In such callings, I just have faith that I am learning something (maybe just patience) and hope that the Lord can make something good out of the messes I create. 3) Listening to the inspiration of others has been a thorn in my side as well. I have frequently been bothered by leaders who seem not to recognized that others have the right to inspiration in their respective spheres (e.g. Beehive advisor being told she can't do THAT activity when she actually felt inspired to do it). I think everyone has a right to their own inspiration about their own potential callings as well and have agency to reject a calling and should be able to do so without being judged. In your case I appreciate this brother being at least willing to consider the Elders calling despite his feelings and hope he will get his confirmation. However, I also hope he is careful not to suggest to the Bishopric they were wrong and that they should put him in YM (see Oliver vs. Joseph). That's definitely working outside the "sphere" of his stewardship.

Why are we even bothering to have this discussion about green energy? We are all going to die in a blazing ball of CO2 unless we can get 2 billion East Asians to stop burning coal.

I suppose I am just discouraged that I don't see desired blessings "pouring" from heaven. My wife says I'm not looking. Anyway... It just seems a preponderance of scriptures, most notably those spoken by the Saviour, suggest if you have faith, all you have do is ask and it'll happen. In contrast, modern prophets explain there are many conditions for receiving blessings among which are: sufficiency of faith, timing, patience, worthiness, a possible lost opportunity to learn from trials and other conditions we do not have the capacity to understand. It seems these many conditions are more likely than not to preclude you from receiving the divine interventions you desire. Therefore, why even bother asking or expecting anything (except that we're commanded to do so)? In my demented way of thinking, if I don't ask for anything, I'm less likely to be discouraged because I don't really have any expectations. (Side note: Buddhists teach that part of the path to enlightenment is to stop wanting/expecting anything)