DKM88

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  1. Honestly, I wouldn't know where to start. There are so many things that it would take too long to discuss them one by one. Read this and then we can discuss. It outlines the ideas objectively without influence from either side.
  2. That's erronious information. Freemasons didn't exist until the 1400's or somewhere around there. Joseph Smith was a mason and ascribed to the idea that masonry existed in the days of Adam and were passed down from generation to generation by holy men. Knowing this makes the temple experience actually makes sense. Of course, Joseph Smith was wrong about masonry always existing and masonry accepts this. You should listen to George Miller. He's an active, TR holding, member of the Church, and he's also a Freemason. Here are some podcasts he's done. They are very informative and enlightening. Search Results
  3. Excellent. So I'm just not quite as advanced as everyone else here in the gospel. That must be it. The Book of Abraham seems like there's nothing authentic about it. I'll "turn it off." The blacks ban from the priesthood doesn't appear to be from God. I'll "turn it off." Joseph's hidden wives and the women he married that were already married to faithful members of the church is shaking my testimony. I'll "turn it off." Mormons connection to masonry is undeniable, but we deny it. I'll "turn it off." Thanks.
  4. So what you're saying is you learned to "turn it off?"
  5. Very nice. You are insinuating that because Mormon women are educated that there must be a lack of oppression. Just because a woman has a BA or MA doesn't mean things are magically equal. It means she's probably more able to critically think her way to understanding that things aren't exactly peachy in Mormondom. Some women are fine living in patriarchal societies and organizations and never fighting for anything. That's fine if they're like that. But not all women are. Your insinuations say a lot about you. Good job.
  6. The whole idea of polygamy treats women like cattle. And even though we have outlawed it, it's still practiced in the temple and is assumed to be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom. Sorry, but I have daughters and I would NEVER expect them to accept that. The idea that women are educated has absolutely nothing to do with equality. It means that women went to school. That doesn't mean that when they go to Church or in their homes they are treated as equals. The man presides in the home and at Church. The woman must listen to the man as he listens to God. If I were a woman I'd take that as my father in heaven doesn't want to communicate with me directly. How sad is that? Women are equal in the Church if they learn to accept their roles. That's what it really boils down to.
  7. So we should be skeptical with science but not with religion? That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that Hawking is wrong about saying we no longer need God in science? Are you more right than he is? Are you qualified to make that statement? What evidence do you have that you didn't "evolve" from a lower form of human? Everybody knows that the idea of Adam and Eve, two people, used to populate a whole planet is impossible. You learn that in Biology 100 at BYU. There have been many apostles pre-Joseph Fielding Smith & McConkie that believed in evolution and that the Adam & Eve story was a metaphor for our separation from God. It's impossible that the story is true, as we understand the physical and biological world. Are you ok with the idea that we evolved from single celled organisms but we, the children of God, inhabited human bodies once they were deemed "evolved enough" to house our spirits?
  8. Ok. Scott said they wouldn't be "third class" citizens. What does that tell you? I didn't want to harp on it, so I left it at that. But since you insist...why didn't he say second class citizens? I find it funny. Sure, maybe he simply misspoke, but it's still funny that people were complaining that women weren't treated as equals and he said "hey, you won't be third class in heaven" (so maybe second class?) Point is, we are behind on equality between sexes in the Church.
  9. Can you verify that his predecessor is employed by "anti-Mormons?" Oftentimes we consider people searching for verifiable facts to be uninspired or anti. I also encourage you to read what scholars say on the subject. You may be surprised (although not pleasantly).
  10. I don't see how my scenario was mocking and over the top. I was making a point. And I believe the point was made. Which was that MANY members of the Church believe that since they have the full truth, the holy spirit would never reveal any truth to anyone else, and if anyone claimed to have an experience with the holy spirit they are simply wrong. In other words, WE, the Mormons, are the judge of whether an experience was from God from a non-member. I have looked into it, and I find it less than convincing. Joseph was 100% wrong on the manuscript that we have. So it's safe to assume that the rest wasn't magically 100% correct. I'm sure you have read Dr. Gee's work on this. You also should know that his predecessor has basically discredited him in a respectful way and completely disagrees with his findings. Although, recently Dr. Gee gave a speech that was published by the Church where he basically said that the truthfulness of the Church doesn't rest of whether the Book of Abraham is legit or not. So it seems that the Church is moving in the direction of phasing out the legitimacy of the book, and for good reason. Here are some points to consider when attempting to determine what sources may have been used in the production of the Book of Abraham: • Abraham 1; Facsimile #1, #3: Abraham’s biographical information in Abraham 1 and Smith’s claim of what these two Facsimile pictures portray comes from The Works of Flavius Josephus. Smith owned an 1830 edition of this book. Smith’s detailed explanations for the individual Egyptian characters on these two Facsimiles in the Book of Abraham have been thoroughly discredited by Egyptologists. • Abraham 2, 4-5: Eighty-six percent of the verses in these three chapters came from Genesis, 1, 2, 12, and 11:28-29. This material came from a 1769 edition or later printing of the KJV, including its errors. • Abraham 3; Facsimile 2: The text of Abraham 3 and Facsimile 2 has some remarkable resemblances to the astronomical concepts, phrases, and other motifs found in Thomas Dick’s, Philosophy of a Future State. Smith owned an 1830 copy of this book. • Abraham 3; Facsimile 2: Thomas Taylor’s 1816 book, The Six Books of Proclus on the Theology of Plato, especially volume 2, also has most of the motifs in Abraham 3 and Facsimile 2. **** and Taylor both contain a number of exact phrases found in Abraham 3 and Facsimile 2. Importantly, Smith’s Newtonian astronomy concepts, mechanics, and model of the universe that he borrowed from these Newtonian books have been thoroughly discredited by Einstein’s twentieth-century model of the universe. • Strange names: The few Hebrew names and phrases found in the Book of Abraham reflect Smith’s study with Hebrew scholar Joshua Seixas during the winter of 1835-36, in Ohio.
  11. Also, how does my statement about how men can become Gods dishonest? Are you a member of the Church? Finally, do you believe it was God's view that polygamy should be an institution of the Church? More importantly, do you believe God sanctioned polyandry? I don't. I can sort of wrap my head around polygamy, but I don't believe in a God that would sanction polyandry...not for one second.
  12. 1. I concede your point that most things in religion sound "funny." 2. Do you have any proof that Brigham Young wasn't racist? It's ok that he was! I'm perfectly fine with that. What American wasn't racist at that time?! Is it that hard to believe? Joseph Smith ordained Blacks to the priesthood. Why did God all of the sudden change his mind when Joseph died?! More than likely, Brigham was racist. But I'm cool with that. 3. I believe it was Richard G. Scott that said women won't be "third-class" citizens in heaven. The fact is, in our current world of equality, women are second class. The only way to get around it is to redefine equality. We aren't in the 1800's anymore. Oh, and polygamy...need I say more? Many of your arguments hearken to the 'pay, pray, and obey' mindset of many members today. Be open! Be truthful! It's a wonderful thing, I promise you.
  13. Well, in my humble opinion, it's a lot better than hiding the truth in hopes people get baptized, only to go inactive because they feel lied to when they find out the darker history.
  14. According to you? According to the Journal of Discourses? You see, you have to break out of the shell. It's ok to believe that people screw up royally in the Church. It's alot better than saying God did it and we're just too stupid to get it.