TimP

@FunkyTown: It takes a truly great mind to come up with a retort like that. I remember something like that from my elementary school days. You're dumb. No you're dumber. No you're dumber than I am. etc. etc. The idea here is to be an adult and have an adult conversation. I know it raises the hair on the back of folk's necks to be told something they sincerely believe is a lie they have been taught all their lives. Do you think I get some kind of fiendish elation out of telling people they are on the wrong path according to the Holy Bible? But I do know what God has laid on my heart and I am very sincere in passing my love for God and the truth as I clearly read, study, and understand it along to all others.

@jerome1232: kool graphic

@Snow: Sorry, I'm not a 'clumsy troll' as you so nicely call me. And I am dead serious in caring for your spiritual well being dispite the fact you are obviously steeped in the lies you have been taught. Rather than look at something and research it as the Bible directs, you clearly take the low road and spout only what you are told to believe. God does not want ignorant robots. He wants those who are committed to Him and seek the true path He has given us in His Holy Word. And BTW, I do quite well at understanding the words I use. Nice cut from someone who is supposed to be so highly moral...apparently only until your thin skin gets scratched. My questions are sincere and not meant as an attack. I genuinely care. And my proof text, which is never accepted by most LDS members is: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8, 9

@Jenamarie, Satan can mimic many things God does except save you. He will do anything he can to turn you from worshiping the true God.

Not flawed at all. The first lie Satan told to Eve was she would become like God is she ate the forbidden fruit. He has been deluding people throughout history. Weak Christians who fall into cults, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, all other false, panthistic religions. He will do anything he can to lead people away from the true God. What easier way than to subtly twist the truth to make you think you are really a Christian worshiping God when you are worshiping a fairy tale. It would be easier for him to do that than to lure you into a totally insane line of thinking. Think of whom you are dealing with. Satan is ultimately evil and his single purpose is to cause people to fall away from the true God of the Bible, the creator and sustainer of the universe and His son, Jesus Christ ONLY through whom do we receive forgiveness of our sins and the free gift of salvation. No rules, no working out our salvation, just worshiping God through Christ and loving others.

According to the Holy Bible your faith in Jesus Christ is misplaced into a figment of Joseph Smith’s and his followers imaginations. The name of God and Jesus Christ have been plagiarized and attached to imaginary characters. There is nothing at all in the Bible that indicates spirit children being procreated in heaven and sent to Earth ignorant of their spiritual existence to become good Mormons while living the right way on earth. This is a duplication of Hindu beliefs in reincarnation. Were it not for Mormon documentation only, you would have no knowledge of those doctrines. Lucifer used Joseph Smith and his followers to delude the minds and spirits of truly good people. He uses his tricks, such as a ‘burning in the bosom’ to make you believe his lies. He does after all have power over the earth.

This is really two questions in one thread, but I feel they belong together. Could you maintain your faith in Mormon doctrines using only the Holy Bible? Also, what exactly in the Holy Bible is considered to be incorrectly translated?

@cew03, I'm sure if I put a wiki page up about myself it would be giggled into oblivion pretty quickly. I was woncering where you got your answers to questions since there are so many out and out differences between what the Bible teaches and what the LDS Church founder, church leaders, teachers, apologist writings, and doctrines say?

Can LDS members read non-Mormon or anti-Mormon literarure as they are searching for answers to their spiritual questions? Or are you constrained to read only LDS litereature disregarding all else as I understand it is while you are on you LDS missions.

@Volgadon. As perhaps the first resident in a 'celestial' Garden of Eden filled with holy fire and all sort of beautiful stones until he grew arrogant and souoht to make himself equal or above God and was cast out of heaven?

I believe it is a dual pronouncement. One part pointed at the Prince of Tyre as an evil, arrogant human being and one part directed at the evil behind him, Lucifer or Satan.

Why does the first part of the scripture refer to a man and the second part refers to someone who had been in Eden and walked in the fires of the mountain of God..among other things. Obviously the King or Prince of an earthly kingdom could do no such thing.

Thanks to everyone for your sincere answers to my previous questions. This one is where the scholars get to put on their thinking caps. In Ezekiel 28 1-19 who are the Prince and King of Tyre prophecied about?

Sorry,I'm a bit new to the forum as well. That smiley face was supposed to be a real smiley and not one with a shocked look.

Not a Mormon or a woman, but welcome aboard. )

Welcome

Hi there. Welcome.

I notice the LDS Church uses a specific set of biblical scriptures to indicate God has a physical body. An avid LDS apologist, Mr. Tim Berman, pressed these scriptures on me quite positively. Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. After much prayer and study I found the English word for ON (expressed as EK in Greek) actually means OUT. Based on this information the scripture 7:55 reads more properly “and Jesus standing OUT of the right hand of God.” And 7:56 would correctly read also “and the Son of Man standing OUT the right hand of God.” There is no indication at all in either scripture as to Stephen seeing God in a physical form. The Jewish expression of God’s or any authority’s glory, majesty, and all authority is summed up in the position on or at the right hand. Example 1: Joseph sought to correct his father Jacob when he had placed his RIGHT HAND on the head of Joseph’s younger son to give him the greater blessing. Genesis 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn. Genesis 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head. Genesis 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head. Example 2: Moses praises God for His might in destroying the Egyptians. He uses the allegory of God using His RIGHT HAND of power. Exodus 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. Exodus 15:12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them. Example 3: Moses giving Aaron and his sons the authority of the Priesthood. Notice the use of the RIGHT portion of the bodies to indicate power, authority, and authorization. Exodus 29:20 Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about. After Stephen had given his oration on the history of the nation of Israel and the coming of Christ it was only natural for him to continue in that vein as he was being murdered. He told them he saw heaven opened up and he saw the majestic glory of God. Standing at (or OUT of) the right hand of the GLORY, not a physical person, he saw Jesus Christ standing in the place of authority, majesty, and power at the RIGHT HAND of everything God is. I respectfully ask for your opinions on this issue. TimP

My sincere thanks for everyone's comments.

@Obolus, yes I am...24 years worth, 5 kids (whew)

I am not a member of the LDS Church but I ask this question in all sincerity. Members of the LDS Church exhibit the highest level of morality, community activity, and faith of any organized religious group of which I'm aware. Your cultivation of family bonding is beyond reproach. Your involvement in community and international good works are exemplary. My question is simply what do you base your great faith on? I have studied and researched the LDS church for a number of years. The information I have comes from LDS documentation and from non-Mormon sources as well. I feel I can get a more direct input from members of the LDS Church themselves. I ask my question because I personally have problems understanding the depth of your faith. As a devout practitioner of the Judeo Christian faith (I'm a follower of Christ) and am not tied to any particular denomination). I believe in and love the Lord God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength and I seek to treat my neighbor as I would be treated myself. I believe that the Holy Bible is the inerrant Word of God as it was originally delivered to man. I do believe there are translation problems caused by various translators but I do not believe the actual word of God and His plan for mankind has been altered in any way. Back to my question. Joseph Smith translated the book of Mormon from a stack of metal plates (either gold or some yellowish metal). Apparently these plates were shown to 11 others as described in the preface to the book of Mormon. The major three witnesses were all excommunicated from the LDS Church although I understand two of them returned. There are various accounts in various documents regarding how these witnesses saw the plates. From what I understand every one of them in one way or the other recanted their original statements as to having seen the plates physically. Each stated when questioned further they saw the plates "through the eye of faith", or in other words through a vision. The plates were ultimately returned to the delivering angel, Moroni. If there are no plates to verify the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and nothing but the word of a group of people who apparently saw them in a vision, how valid do you feel the existence of the plates actually is? Other, of course, than because you believe in them by faith or an inner feeling alone. Along with that the Book of Abraham was translated from scraps of papyrus that are still in possession of the Church. Since modern Egyptologist have discounted any connection with these documents to what was translated by Joseph Smith apparently the accepted method of translation is he did it simply by the gift and power of the Holy Spirit. It seems the papyrus fragments were used as a ‘trigger’ that caused Joseph Smith to be able to write the Book of Abraham. How do you justify your deep faith based on the statements of human beings only. There is no supernatural or physical verification at all that I see. This has been quiet a long question with much extra information included to hopefully let you know the sincerity with which I am asking it. I thank you deeply for bearing with my extended note. I really try to make myself as clear as possible in any of my writing. At least that's the excuse I use when I ramble on. Sincerely looking forward to your answers. TimP

Hi there, my name is Tim and I am a newbie. I am a sincere and devout Christian but I'm not a member of the LDS Church. I have the utmost respect for the character of those who are part of the LDS Church. I feel members of the LDS are some of the most kind, moral, and upstanding individuals in the world. What you do with your families and communities is beyond reproach. I have many friends who are members of the LDS and care for them deeply. I have read, studied, researched, and written about the LDS Church and doctrine as I understand them for a number of years. I have many issues in reconciling LDS doctrines with what I'm taught in the Bible. My studies thus far have been limited to documentation and books written by LDS leaders and apologists along with the typical anti-Mormon rhetoric. I am continually seeking for truth and I feel I still have much to learn. My reason for being here is to make more friends, ask questions, and to learn more about the basis of the LDS doctrine. I'm not here to attack or reproach anyone nor do I come with any kind of arrogant attitude. I sincerely want to learn. And, perhaps I can share some of the information I have garnered through the Holy Spirit in my research and study. God bless each of you, and I hope you will accept me as I am, a sincere, caring, and interested friend.