rosie321

Differences: No candles, incense, wine, latin....:) Harder to be a one day a week member. Through scriptures and prayer you have to work to find your answers or you will grow weary. Both churches have a strong central leadership that guides the church. You do not have to go to the Bishop for routine confession. Only grevious wrongs need to be addressed and confirmation times when you go to the baptismal interview, temple etc. Either you are doing or you're not. If you're not he sends you back to the Lord or helps you find ways to get you back on the gospel path. Moderation, temperance, purity, family , relationships and self control are emphasized. There is peace through knowing where we came from, what God wants us to be here on earth, and in the future. The Book of Mormon is much easier to read and follow than the Bible:) While it may seem like more work in the LDS church it seems easier. simpler to understand and apply, and with much more freedom.

Another LDS misconception: 23 is not the end of the world when it comes to marriage:). Don't worry about marriage and focus on something else. It might help connect you to other likeminded people. As has been pointed out before all you need is one who loves the gospel. You are desirous but have not found the one that is for you yet. Your time will come someday. Wait for the spirit to help you choose. I must disagree with above posts. Be wary of settling for just anyone to get married. If done correctly your future marriage should last forever. Be certain they share the same commitment towards spiritual things as you. Marriage is like a three way commitment when done correctly. It is between you, your partner and God. If your partner wants to eliminate one piece of that triad there will be problems If you want to follow the gospel you will have to discriminate when it comes to the choice of your partner. "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve". Picking someone outside of the gospel may help you get married but that may be all it does. There are many single members of the church not by choice who have done much work for God that they might not otherwise have been able to do. One sister that comes to mind was in the Relief Society presidency. (In the Ensign a while back there was an article about her). She was a strength and comfort particularly to the single sisters I knew. You have the right desires in your mind and God knows your thoughts. Continue to "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you." Trust the Lord and do what you should be doing. Blessings will flow.

Oops I'm truly sorry for all the misunderstanding above and congratulations on your fiance's upcoming baptism. I missed that line before responding above so I thought he was all non-member and wrote accordingly:(

Sorry if my post sounded harsh. I understand she came seeking help on how to plan the marriage. Hearing her decision to marry a non-member raised some concerns in my mind. As her sister in the gospel I felt it important to ask her before she marries this man why she is marrying a non-member and make sure she has really asked herself this question. She is making a death 'til you part decision to someone who believes differently than her. How will this relationship weather the storms that come it's way if it cannot honestly answer that question or cope with people asking that question? Asking these questions should be as important a part of planning the marriage as picking the place or the person who will marry them. There are some mixed member and non-member families that do work out well. Some sadly work out better than the all member. The important question I must ask is do they have a true commitment to work through their differences? Do they fully understand what their religious differences are? Being in love defineately helps the marriage move but it won't make it last. Their religious differences can create a problem for her in the future. I don't know whether this is the right or wrong to do. Perhaps this is the right thing for her to do at this time. God has that answer for her. I hope she has truly asked God for the answer on this and really recieved an answer yes or no. While this is an extreme case, in the Bible God called Hosea to take a harlot. So it is very possible she may be called for some unknown reason to link up with her fiance. As above the final decision is hers BTW: I am married to a non-member who I love very much and is very supportive. But it still brings a number of extra challenges and heartache that wouldn't have existed otherwise;). The General Authorities have wisely counseled throughout the centuries of marrying outside the church because of the extra problems that come along with being unequally yoked;). Considering all the demands of our church, is it really so unreasonable to ask why before they marry?

Perhaps this is a good training ground for your children. There will always be people who disagree and don't approve of the church. How your children learn to deal with such people is key. Perhaps your children and their friends should be thoughtful and prayerful as to the reasons why they are in the church and looking in to it. This could make them stronger. I know many members who joined and were stronger because of the questions. Perhaps your mom never fully understood the church herself or left. This could be God's way of opening the door to future help there. Be very wary of how you respond. The mama cub always wants to protect her young. Sometimes sharpness is needed and sometimes gentle as doves is needed. Pray for the wisdom that applies to your circumstance. "And all these things will be for thy experience"

Sorry to be a party pooper- just wondering why you are deciding to marry a non member after being sealed in the church? While he might be a great person you are marrying him and for a time becoming "one" with him. Won't you be unequally yoked? From the outside I don't fully understand and just a little concerned but wish you the best no matter what you do. You can get married outside of the chapel by the bishop. Since you are not getting married in the temple its much more flexible and is dependent on what the local leadership is willing to do. I've known people who have gotten married outdoors and other buildings As far as I know you can do your own vows, within reason. The vows are just vaild for earth outside of the temple. Since you are already married for eternity this most likely is of no concern.

Let me ask you some questions and comment on what I feel you have said. Please do not feel the need to respond back on this site or be offended any questions or comments left. Sometimes questions need to be asked and things said. First let me note that it is great that you are trying to make an eternal family and are following what you believe to be the Lord's way. You WILL be blessed for your efforts. Perhaps not in your timing though;) Do not be discouraged. Many people have had to face challenges and persecution for following Christ or being associated with the church. May I encourage you to read Matthew 5 ( or the parallel in the BOM). Tough question time. Why were you seperated in the first place? Answering this question may help you better understand which way to go. A doctor cannot provide the proper help without understanding what the issue is. So you have to be completely honest with yourself and God regarding this. Is there something that you are doing to cause problems? If so what? What if anything can you do to fix it? Can you or have you prayed about the matter? Do you feel that your marriage is repairable? Do you think that your wife truly wants to fix it? (Its much harder if she doesn't want to) How can you come to a peaceable solution? Is there any? Would you be willing to risk putting your relationship aside(sacrifice) for a time to focus in on God and doing what it is that God wants you to do? Perhaps this is a test for you? I wish that I had easy answers for you! You have to go before the ultimate doctor (God) though. He will show you what to do or put the people in the path that you need. Perhaps you can work things out with your wife maybe not. The variables are great. Rest assured that there are many couples in the church whose partner is not a member of the church. It is possible to have a good marriage whether she joins or not, although it will present you both with some added challenges and heartache. Respect her desire not to be a part of the church and make it clear that you will not force her or your son to go. But make it clear to her that you feel the desire right now to join the church and you want to meet with the missionaries because it will help you be a better husband, father, and person. If you ignore something that you feel so strongly about it will destroy you in the long run. Do not play matyrr when you are called to do something else. If you try and cover up something so important to you you will be filled with hate, frustration and other internal rage that will manifest itself in ways you never planned on. There is a lot of fear, misunderstanding and animosity regarding the church. Respect her desire not to join or be a part of it. Its easy to go to the extreme of almost pushing it on her and try to save her-but wasn't that Satan's plan? You can't drag her along. Everyone has their agency. Sometimes it hurts. God has always respected the free agency of man. From the garden, during the time of Christ, etc. That is what you have to do. Imagine someone trying to push something that you didn't want. There needs to be a balance of respect. She should be willing to let you live your life as led by God. You need to let her follow her heart too. Is it possible for to keep a relationship going even with differences in beliefs. Maybe not very easily though. Your relationship to God needs to be #1 or you will never find happiness with anyone. So stay close to scriptures and pray often. You can do all you can for her and it may not make a difference. Follow God 1st and show her the love that Christ showed his church. If she reads scriptures read with her from the Bible. The same truths in the BOM are found in the Bible. The differences in your understandings and beliefs can also be used to strengthen you both spiritually if you let it. Focus in on Gospel truths rather than church specific things. Most spiritual truths cross over different church or religious environments. As you look at what you have in common your relationship will strengthen. Good luck to you. Continue to try and choose the right. It may not be easy but be assured of this you are never forgotton by God and He will keep His promises. Do not be afraid to listen and obey that which you feel He calls you to do.

I was asked a question that has really stumped me. I'm hoping somebody can help me find an answer. Here's my summed up background understanding on the matter. *Passover was something required forever to remember the passing over the death angel over the Isrealites in the O.T. It is known as the feast of the unleavened bread. *Sacrament is the way in which we remember it now The question was.....If passover is the feast of the unleavened bread then why do we use leavened bread in the sacrament meetings to remember it? Shouldn't we always be using unleavened bread to remember? I know the devil can be in the details sometimes but... I thought they raised a good question and would love to know the answer. Does anyone know where to find the answers to this question or have some ideas?

Not to give you a swelled head or anything, but I really have to echo the chorus of others, I think you are doing the right thing. You are also setting a great example not only for your daughter but all who post here. Its great that you have such a relationship with your daughter that she can speak to you about this. Sadly, some parents don't have that. Its also remarkable that you were receptive to her coming to you. This is the place where most well intentioned people lose it. They don't want to hear their child may not choose to stay with the gospel. They come down so hard they actually push a person farthur away from the gospel. I pray that you might continue to have the strength to support her and handle any outcome. Continue to support, love, and pray for her. (You don't seem like the kind of person who will stop). She may really test your resolve if she chooses not to stick it out and starts making some bad choices. Stay as strong, loving and faithful as you already are. One of my favorite stories is the story in the B.O.M. . The angel of the Lord appears to the sons of because of the prayers of their father. They are converted and the rest is history.

I think it boils down to what kind of men and women do we want to be? What will help our testimony or potentially hurt it? What good does swearing do for us? Sure it may be possible to say a few swear words and still have a testimony. Everyone slips up and forgiveness is possible. But how much is too much? When does a little become uncontrollable or lead to other things? Substitution in order to continue swearing in an exceptable way makes me think of a wolf in sheeps clothing. While it may be more culturally accepted a wolf is still a wolf no matter how you dress it up. "It is IMPOSSIBLE for a person who swears to have a strong testimony is an extreme statement but something worth consideration. Each thing we do bears some consequence. How do we want to be known? "All things are possible not all things are profitable".

Impossible probably not but it certainly would make it more difficult to have a strong testimony. Other members may find it difficult to hang around with someone who swears. A persons social influences will then change creating a change in the social pull to stay on track. While it may make a person seem more acceptable to non-members they may in actuality become a laughing stock for those outside the church. Members should avoid all appearances of evil and be an example of the faith. If a member is swearing how different are they? Why should non members follow? The easier it is to justify one wrong the easier it is to justify others. If they are swearing using the Lords name in vain then they are breaking one of the basic commandments. According to the scriptures wickedness never was happiness. It may seem like just a few words who cares. Ask the Lord and see what He thinks.

It certainly sounds like you want to be there so why aren't you? I can honestly say I have felt the same way you have at times. But I found I had to do some soul searching. I'm going to ask you some tough love questions that I had to ask myself when going through feelings such as yours and tell you how I handled them. As far as your lacking support, whose support are you seeking? Why are you going to church? This was a tough one for me to get to the root of and handle the answer. I go out of love for my savior. If this is true I shouldn't stay away because of fear of man or because people don't like me or they don't live up to their commitments. I go because of my commitment, gratitude and love to my savior who went through so much. In order to fully live up to my commitment I need to put my selfishness and fears aside and trust God. He is there, He loves us and will not ask us to do anything save he prepare a way whereby we may accomplish the thing which he hath commanded. Christ suffered so much for me and my sins. Why do I think everything is always going to fall perfectly in place? It didn't for Christ. Christs closest followers did not comprehend what he was telling them and fell asleep at one of the most critical times when He needed them most. They denied and betrayed him. Despite this, Christ did what He was supposed to. He fullfilled the will of the Father at all times. Could others need your help? God may want you there to help others. Your visiting and home teachers may not have come because they have too many people such as yourself. They are also human and probably covering an extra load-yours. Go to church. Its what you want to do. Don't let anyone or anything seperate you from experiencing greater love and closeness to the gospel of Christ. That is what church should be about.

Oops this posted after your post.

Apologies if my above post was too harsh. I think it's important to really consider the cost and the blessing you will have recieved if things turn around. It's great to see you want to make things work out. I am of the belief too that divorce should be avoided at all costs. Holding onto your eternal marriage is a noble aim. Hopefully all will go well with you. But once again please let me urge caution in just giving her things to read. The temptation to do so might be strong, but I'm not sure that will be helpful. I sincerely believe that may cause more pain. She did not break such grave trusts with you. You broke them. Perhaps you read them yourself so she can see you are serious and repenting. Your wife is hurt but maybe if she sees you reading or hears you listening to the materials she might be tempted to read or listen with you.

While I'm certain that this is not what you want to hear I ask you to consider what I am saying for a moment.. Consider for a time what you did and the impact that your actions have on your wife. You have given her no reason at all to trust you and have broken lifes most sacred LDS trusts. Adultery, disciplinary counsel-putting at risk your eternal marriage and sealing, drinking, repeatedly lying to your wife..... These actions bear grave. consequences. Simple apologies cannot repair what you have done. Your discussion of what was done most likely hurt her because it brought back memories of the broken trust. Be patient with her. The greater the damage the greater the time to heal. Some things may never be back to the way that they were. Sin bears a heavy price. Consider this cost always so you are not tempted again. If you want to see your relationship survive, please do not gather information to give your wife on love and forgiveness. Most likely this will seem insulting coming from you and may only reopen wounds right now. Let the Lord and her friends draw her back to those principles. You can pray for her and your relationship while continuing to grow in the Lord. I don't know what the full extent of the damage is to your marriage or if it can be saved. It would be a tremendous blessing if things could be worked out and your wife finds the strength to forgive you. Divorce would be spiritually justified though because of your actions. The fact that she has stayed with you this long may be a good sign. Continue to read your scriptures, pray, and turn to leaders for support. Praying for you.

Can you honestly say that the system is not abusive? Please.The American public education system is abusive, as well intentioned as it might be. Sure there are good teachers out there. Thank Goodness! Have you looked at the standards that are being promoted? It's shameful! It goes way beyond learning how to get along with others and pushes propoganda. Look at why many Californians are choosing to pull their children out of school? Why is that? The state has some of the most liberal legislations on the books. Evil is made good and good evil. Can you honestly say that the educational system is working? It's a travesty! Consider the statistics. Look at the graduation rates, particularly in the inner cities. Look at the volence and crime rates against students in schools. Look at the ways in which the victims of crime are handled. Look at the drop outs rates. What are children able to do once they drop out? To not stop this hemmorhaging of students from schools onto the streets is abuse. Consider the NCLB and the devastating consequences it has created in schools. Look at the unions. Its appalling with all the knowledge and money our educational system has within its grasp that it cannot do a better job of educating our children. The American Educational System is abusive! The alternatives to it have demonstrated a far better record in the sucessful development of an educated citizenry. Please explain why you feel the system is not abusive. The record is what it is. Look it up.

What is the real reason you don't want to go? Vitamins and all the other health suggestions listed above might benefit you but I'm not so sure that is your problem. From what I read in the above it is the people that is causing you problems. At one time you might not have been interested in scriptures which may have added to your struggles. That does not seem to be an issue for you at this time because you experience enjoyment during the time when you can read on your own. It sounds from your post that your problems lie in strugglies with other people. What bothers you about them? Being honest with yourself on that question will help you find the strength to take it to Heavenly Father for help and know what others that you may need to go to in order to resolve your issues. Dealing with other people can be a challenging thing. The church can be a very difficult place at times probably because of the high standards and expectations that are set as a result. I like C.S. Lewis' Screwtape Letters, it helps keep me in check. I hope you can find your way through this difficult time. In my prayers.. Rosie

If all of Jacob/Israels difficulties in marrying and the disputes that ensued between his wives didn't end the future practice of polygamy then I'm not sure that anything can:).

While the LDS church might be the group most able to understand the culture of these people and respect them, the church would be wise to avoid any deprogramming efforts. Deprogramming is a bad prospect. First FLDS follow different ideas. They have gone their own way and so would most likely take offense at any efforts of "help" from the renegade LDS who do not operate under the proper guidance. Secondly, we would be robbing them of the opportunity to exercise free agency. Third, with the varying opinions and beliefs of the members expressed just on these boards, what plan of deprogramming would be used that would work? Fourth, it wasn't that long ago that members of the LDS church practiced polygamy. This is a point of grave concern to many outside the church. LDS efforts would not be appreciated. Joseph Smith as well as other leaders are seen as using shaping religion to fill their lusts. Women are viewed as slaves to the men. Emma's disdain towards the idea of polygamy feeds this notion. There are many outside believers who want to deprogram LDS members to this day because they believe members "cannot see" the truth and are "being led down satan's path." Many will ask what if this policy were to be restored in the LDS church now. 5th The members of this Texas group would most likely be ashamed of the way we have turned from polygamy and given into 'earthly' pressures rather than doing what is expected from an eternal perspective. Sixth, the "deprogrammers" will most likely face antagonism and will be seen as the enemy. That is something that the LDS church should stay away from. What good could come from it? The victims will not be helped if they are turned away from a source which in theory should help them the most.

No I can't say that I do understand or appreciate the way in which these people are stated to live. I have a difficult time with such a culture mainly because of the way it seems to be set up. Robbing people of agency and innocence or administering unrighteous dominion is never right. This culture does not operate under the way I believe the Lord would want it to be done. Environments can be created which can rob people of their agency, self esteem and other blessings. I understand all too well the temporal and eternal fear that these people could be living under. That's what makes this such a difficult issue to deal with. After many years of having dealt with an environment of fear and control and being removed from it, I cannot say the answers are any plainer or easier to find. There is heartache all the way around. Wickedness was never happiness is much easier to understand in this context. I see the importance of individuals right's and the protection of liberty. This is a vitally important topic too. Much diligence must be given to protect them or else we could have unfettered control such as what Hitler exercised. The ramifications of Hitler's programming still lives on today in some German Laws and he created immeasurable harm to many people who were different. LDS have as article of faith these two beliefs that help to illustrate the challenge in this matter. #11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. Shouldn't this group be allowed to worship as they wish? Are they exempt? #12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. What happens when man's law contradicts God's Law in a person's mind? Who should win? Have the people on this compound committed crimes? If so where are the charges and the proof? They have been removed for over a week. If it is proved that these men are marrying underage girls or commiting statuatory rape on minors then they have broken the law and should be punished accordingly. But to date the only people that have been dealt with are the women and children. Not only have they had to endure trauma the system has inflicted on them by pulling them from the home, they will probably all wind up back in the environment because of the way that this situation has been handled from the start. If they are being abused now, how much worse will it be later do you think, after all the dust has settled and these women and children are returned home? The abuse will only be greater:(

6. Was it really necessary to remove 400+ innocent children and the mothers who did no crime? Are the children in a better place? Are the mothers really guilty? I feel for anyone who will have to be a judge or juror in this matter. 7. What was the Baptist involvement in this? Was it just the use of the buses? I would hope that the Baptist leaders would be more concerned about the way they are being used and portrayed in this matter rather then in trying to demean another group or prove them wrong. They should make it clear where they stand on this matter before the tables turn on them. Freedoms and rights could be taken away from them one day also. They need to make a clear stand. Hopefully they can create a climate of genuine love and care. I understand they will never accept the lifestyle or beliefs of this group they need to be careful of how involved they become in going against this group of people. The swords they draw on another may one day be used against them-especially where the government is concerned.

This whole matter is very unsettling for many reasons. Perhaps because there are no easy solutions. 1. The most troubling reason for me is the fact that free agency seems to have been removed from the young girls in the community who are "expected" to "spiritually marry" older men. The younger boys are kicked out seperated from their families. Abuse can take many forms and usually involves removing power from one person and giving it to another. These young girls are brought up in a way that robs them of their ability to choose and live up to their God given potential. Boys have everything taken away. It seems like there is no free agency just abuse and unrighteous dominion occuring. 2. The whole issue of polygamy and the way it is being twisted and portrayed by different groups both by those who practice it and don't is also a concern. When does it become alright to step over the line and judge someone elses culture? LDS, Muslims, Christians and others groups have instances of polygamy in its history. No one can deny it has happened in any of these histories. The D&C is one source that seems to indicate that it might be restored and needful. So I have difficulty with how many groups tend to downplay it or make it seem something so bad. If God truly did institute it or if it was used by worthy and honorable leaders such as Abraham then the way it would be used should be in a wholesome way. Not in a way that demeans another or satisfies anothers lusts. That which the Lord designs is done for the good. If God was not alright with polygamy the men of scriptures would not have been set up as revered spiritual men. These polygamist communities such as the one in Texas may believe that they are doing the right thing by the Lord. Based on the stories, I don't think that is the way it is being done in this community. It seems wrong. Perhaps it is because it is not being done by the proper authority? To what degree is it just because of the way it is being presented by the media and public opinion? Polygamy is a concept that is not in practice now by the LDS church but it was previously and may one day be reinstituted so yes we don't practice it now but I don't know that we can or should deny it. How do we effectively handle the issue? Polygamy is an issue that will never go away. 3. It bothers me to see how this whole Texas scenario has played out. It seems that the authorities defineately crossed some lines. It's really hard to watch any citizens rights being trampled on and the laws of the land bypassed for a greater good. Yet I can also understand the difficulty they have in dealing with a situation that seems to be harmful with no cooperation. When should authorities step in and intervene in peoples lives? What makes one way of living good and another bad? The behavior of some people could really cause harm but when does anyone have the right to step in and help? How do we assure that silent, agonized cries for help are not ignored? I am at a loss with this one. The goverments power should be limited. People should not have the right to tell another how to live their life. But then with the kids involved, our complicated legal system and imperfected world I'm don't know. 4. It really concerns me the way that the "sacred temple" of these people was desecrated. While these people may seem like fringe groups and so it's OK, when will they come to regular LDS temples because they fear something may be going on inside of them? Then the sacred and holy things could be made dirty and trivialized. While I'm sure they won't find anything it still bothers me to think of something that is supposed to be holy and sacred could be defiled by people who seek harm or profit. It also troubles me the way that others are now viewing the LDS temples. For those not LDS -No we don't have sex in the temples! (unless I missed that brainwashing session). Seeing the holy place of these people "defiled" slightly defiles the LDS temples in my mind. I can't help but think what must go through the minds of non-LDS who already think we are a cult and cannot seperate the church of now from the church of the past. 5. Our culture is tolerant and accepting of adultery, adult pornography, fornication, homosexuality, living together, and other alternative ways of living. Why go against a group of people such as this yet ignore and accept many other lifestyles which cause greater harm? It does seem that the real threat here is religion and personal freedom. This Texas group seems to not need the government or be prone to go its way. Is this why the government has stepped in so vehemently?

I think sometimes man puts himself before the Holy Ghost and God. There are countless "intellectuals" who have felt they know better and have driven themselves right into apostasy. They will swear they are right. On some issues, where every latter-day prophet from Joseph Smith right down to Gordon Hinckley say "A" and you are inclined to say "B", do you think that's an issue of relying on the arm of flesh? Who's arm? While I can understand the danger that might arise by people going off on their own- The authorities are imperfect. The have all sinned. Scriptures make this fact very clear. They come with all their mortal flaws and issues of humanity. They have been placed into positions of leadership by God. If there is a discrepancy between what they say and what a person thinks shouldn't they trust in the spirit? Scriptures plead with us to ask God. Pray continually. Seek after His wisdom. If we are trusting God and following the direction of the Holy Ghost then the truth will be revealed line upon line in the proper dosage thats individually required. Man can put himself before God too. They can go against God and the prophets. But then they are following neither the Holy Spirit or prophets in that case and they will be left to their own devises. They will be judged accordingly. Regardless of whether people let pride step in or does not alter the fact that the Holy Spirit is given the authority over the prophets. The prophets are there merely to point the way to God and His will not to stand in the place. No argument there, of course. But, the question is -- whose arm of flesh is one relying on? No answer needed, just what to keep in mind. And, also to keep in mind that if one thinks that on an important matter of doctrine the Holy Ghost has testified something vastly different to them than to prophets that spend all day every day in the service of their Lord, in the depths of the temple apart from the world where the spirit is so strong, etc., then it becomes a case that the person must therefore believe the prophet has led them astray and that's no doubt why there are so many Book of Mormon believing churches that are not headquartered in Salt Lake. Time at the temple does not guarantee one is fully experiencing the spirits leadings. The flesh can still take over. I would argue the point that Isn't it possible to spend time in the temple and still not heed God? I think of Eli and his wicked sons in the OT. They were removed because of their wickedness. Samuel was prepared to take their place. The temple has seen money changers that were not doing the will of God. Moses was in the presence of God, came down from the mountain, saw how the people had sinned and broke the tablets God had handwritten on. Attendance at the temple, or personal worship is ineffective without the spirit leading or God's actual leading. Prophets, apostles and such are not completely infallible. Humanity might kick in and cause them to lose sight. I would agree with your assessment though that the odds are in the favor of the prophets actually following the Lords leading. They have not devoted their lives to serving God and been chosen by God to serve in this capacity if there wasn't a purpose for it. In this particular instance, I'm not so sure we are all as far apart as we might think. It is possible, as Andrew suggested that the different meanings of terminology used may be the source of much of the disagreements here. Its hard to explain the true value and beauty of spiritual things in our human words. Everyone has a different understanding but it doesn't completely mean the prophets have completely lost it or that those who don't see in the same way are bound for apostasy.

I asked before and you may have answered and I missed it, but what do you think the options were in Mosaic times to have a symbolic showing of Christ feeling our sins and understanding our needs? Working under the assumption that the atonement occured at the cross by the shedding of the blood one has to see that Christ was different from all the other sacrifices. He was not an animal. He was the Son of God and yet subject to all human emotions and desires. He did not have to sacrifice himself for us. He had the choice. But He knew His Father's will and He chose to see that people would have the opportunity to return to Heavenly Father. A choice that was lost to us all because of the fall.. The very act of Him going to the cross showed that he felt our sins and understands our needs. (Not sure why Gethsamane would be necessary to fully address this need). Christ great love and feeling the pain of our sins was revealed in His choice of his final words on the cross. The words showed concern for His mother, spoke comfort to the thief next to Him, their were the words spoken in emotional torment "Abba Father why hast thou forsaken me," and probably the most powerful words of care were "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." The words Christ spoke on that cross show me clearly that he bore the price of our sins and understands our needs. The moments that were suffered in Gethsemane are powerful reminders of His love too and should not be discounted. Those moments in the Garden alone could not have offered us the hope of salvation the way that the death on the cross did.

I think your observations are very valid about the atonement and reconciliation. Might I suggest another area that I think causes problems is that LDS tend to put more emphasis on the works and salvation being a process. While this is not necessarily a bad thing its harder when focused on works to truly comprehend the atonement as one act and what that one act means. LDS are familiar with such verses as "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" So how does the atonement apply to Latterday Saints? How does the meaning distinguish it from others? Works are a hallmark of the LDS church. Putting emphasis on the cross and one act as other christian faiths do could be seen as minimizing other important things and losing the churches individuality. The atonement being seen as stages garden-cross-resurrection fits into that. But it seems through reading scriptures, despite Latterday comments/revelations the cross is the atoning spot. Your point on the definition of atonement and the distinction with reconciliation is dead on. I would agree that that is where many of the issues on this topic are rising from.