Bryans_Saturdays

Good question. I guess my motive is this... I am worried that as members of the LDS religion, we have forgotten what the word "modesty" really means. We have pushed modest dress so heavily that we have come to think modesty is a flat, one dimensional, single topic subject: clothing. I think modesty is about so much more. Clothing is one ingredient, but by far not the only. It's also about behaving with respect, not calling undue attention to yourself, not wearing too much makeup, not wearing too much jewelry, being polite, avoiding loud laughter, always making choices that will keep you in the company of the Holy Ghost, not using foul language, being a person of quiet dignity, reserve, and reverence. I could go on, but you get the idea. When I think of modesty I think of Mary, the mother of Christ. "She kept all these things and pondered them in her heart." Mary did not run around yapping about the angel that had visited her. She did not go around telling the story to all of her girl friends, finishing with "... and the spirit was SOOO strong!" She was not a loud, obnoxious, outspoken young woman. She was soft, gently, humble, dignified, and most of all - respectful and reverent towards things that were special and sacred. THIS is true modesty. When someone is a modest person, modest attire will follow. And, when someone is a modest person, it does not unravel their modesty to show flesh which would normally be kept covered by garments when a safe, family-oriented, modest situation calls for it. Clothing alone does not make a person modest or immodest. Yet I fear that too often this is the lesson we teach our youth. Bryan

Well said. But, I guess I'm trying to go deeper then just "what is appropriate to wear for what occasion." To bring this thread back to the original intent: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I have known some LDS girls and women who wear full length t-shirts over their modest one piece swim suits because it's more modest. Q: Is this really being more modest, or is it just being insecure and silly? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As I described in the original post, someone complained after a dance recital that the outfits were too tight and showed too much leg and mid-rif, and thus were not modest. And Almom makes a great point - during the Olympics the outfits worn by the figure skaters and gymnasts sure are tight and show a lot of skin. So... Q: Does showing leg and mid-rif while performing a modest dance or figure skating routine or gymnsatics routine really constitute immodesty? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ True story: There were young woman in the ward in which I grew up who could not attend a swim event because their would be young men present, and the mom did not want the young men to see her daughter in a swim suit. This would not be modest. True story: There is a mother in a ward in our stake who will not allow her tall, athletic teenage daughter to try out for the high school Volleyball team as the shorts and shirts they wear are too tight and reveal the form of their bodies. Softball is approved, as they wear 'normal' shorts and t-shirts which do not overly expose the forms of their body and do not expose skin which would be covered by the garments. Q: Are these mothers correct in these choices? Do they have a good grasp of what modesty really is? Or - Are they way over reacting? Are they mistaking modesty for some sort of misguided fear of the human body? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Take a look at this photo: http://www.byucougars.com/Filing.jsp?ID=8131 Is this female student being immodest? She's showing an awful lot of leg, arm, and shoulder, and even some mid-rif. The mother's described above would not allow their daughter's to participate in track and field. Q: What about the university that promotes such outfits? What about the church that owns the university? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Again, I'm trying to go deeper then just "what is appropriate to wear for what occasion." It seems to me that we, as a culture, have gone too far in our concerns over modest dress, to the point of being down-right afraid to admit that we are humans, that we have bodies, and that our bodies have sexual body parts. In the name of modesty, some of us seem to fear ever wearing anything that may remind someone that these body parts exist. Q: Is this healthy? Bryan P.S. Maybe the extreme Muslims have it right - when women go in public they should only wear burkas which cover absolutely everything, even the eyes.

You are 100% correct! I hope you did not think I am in ANY way advocating immodest dress. Rightly so! You will not catch my eight year old daughter in any of the skimpy jeans and t-shirts that are so popular these days. Well said. And again, I hope you did not read anywhere in anything that has already been said that it's okay to ever dress immodestly. The point that I am trying to make is this: A dance outfit is not modest when worn to church on Sunday, but is perfectly modest when worn while performing at a dance recital. Would you agree or disagree, ALmom? Bryan

Thanks to everyone who responded. I'm glad to see I'm not alone in this thinking. Tisha - your story of how you became a modest person ring so true! As we draw closer to God we become more modest, and then the clothing we choose to wear naturally falls in line. Pushka, how ironic that a leader would make you cover your hips, but not even think twice about a song that blatantly advocates sex outside of marriage. I fear that in the LDS church, we place way too much emphasis on modest dress, and not enough on all the other aspects of modesty. In my opinion this is not a healthy way to teach modesty, as it focuses too much attention on our bodies and not enough on behavior, personal habits, and our overall spirituality. It is so lopsided that many youth today think that modesty is a flat, single dimension subject: clothing. In their minds, all you have to do is wear approved clothing, and then nothing else matters. And the flip also really bothers me... anyone who wears a slightly revealing outfit for something as innocent as a dance recital must be an immodest person. Too many of us seem blind to the idea that a perfectly modest person may, when the occasion calls for it (dance recital, school play, day at the beach, etc.) show some skin and still remain a modest person. Fear of the human body is not modesty... it's just fear of the human body. Bryan

Recently our seven year old daughter performed in her end-of-the season dance recital. All year she had worked hard in an after school class and this recital was a chance for us, and all of the other parents, to witness the fruits of our children’s labor. It was a splendid and inspiring recital which I enjoyed immensely. Dancers of all ages performed, some so young they barely knew how to walk, some in their late teens, and every age in-between. For our daughter, it was her first chance to perform on stage in front of several hundred people. On the drive home we were all abuzz with excitement. Amidst the energized comments and observations, however, a female member of our group (extended family member) remarked how uncomfortable she had felt during a few of the performances. Some of the older, teenage dancers, almost all of whom were female, wore costumes which included tight black pants and tops which showed bellybuttons and much of the their backs. She wondered out loud about how “inappropriate and immodest” some of the costumes had been, and questioned why the dance school would ask their girls to wear them. This got me thinking… what, exactly, is the relationship between clothing and modesty? Were the outfits really immodest? What about my own daughter… when she is older and if she is still in dance, how would I feel about her wearing such an outfit? My thoughts boil down to this: I fear that as a society and as a religion, we place too much emphasis on clothing and clothing alone when teaching modesty to our youth and children. I worry that we don’t place enough emphasis on being a modest person. What is modesty, anyway? If we walked into any average teenage Sunday school class and asked the kids to give a definition of modesty, most of them would start by saying it means to choose clothing which does not show too much leg, arm, or mid-riff. Let’s take it a step further. Play the word association game with yourself. Say the word “Modesty” and then note the first word that pops into your head. Be honest. Was it “clothing” or something like it? Is this all there is to modesty? Does it, or does it not include the following as well: not drawing undue attention to yourself; avoiding loud laughter; treating everyone with respect; having good manors, saying ‘Please’ and ‘Thank you’; living within your means, not wearing too much jewelry, not wearing too much makeup; avoiding excessive tattoos; using clean and proper language, good personal hygiene, conducting yourself in a quiet, dignified, respectable manner? It seems to me that if a person has or is approaching mastery of being a modest person, that modest dress will follow by nature. A modest person would have no desire to dress immodestly as a habit. Should not the emphasis when teaching our youth, then, be on modesty as a personal trait, rather then mainly on modest dress? Now, here’s the real kicker. When someone is a modest person, does it detract from their modesty to wear a revealing outfit at a dance recital? Granted, it would not be appropriate to wear to church on Sunday tight black pants and a sparkly shirt which shows back and tummy. But is wearing this outfit at a dance recital immodest? The female which made the comment that began all of this would say, “Yes!”. As the conversation progressed she said that if her daughter was involved, she would have a conversation with the costume designers and ask them to design something more modest. If they refused, she would pull her daughter out. My point of view is quit different. I think the level of modesty can not be determined simply by what the dancers are wearing. That is one ingredient, but certainly not the only. How are they dancing? Are there moves at all suggestive or sexual, or are they simply artistic? What is the music? Is it laced with inappropriate undertones, or is it wholesome and suitable for a true family environment? But most importantly, who is the person doing the dancing? Is he or she a modest person? If all the ingredients are positive, then from my point of view, tight black pants and a sparkly shirt which shows back and tummy does not in and of itself constitute immodesty. What do you think?

Did you keep reading, Snow? To quote myself: Yes. You have pointed out one of the sticky points of the pride vs. humility ballance. I'm on a personal quest to be more humble and less judgemental. So after a year or so of trying so hard to not look down on other people, for any reason, I see somebody do or say the exact kind of thing I've been trying to stop. Then I think to myself, "Hmm. They should be more humble like me." And so I'm right back to where I started. How does one recognize pride in others without being themselves prideful? I honestly don't know the answer to that question. Bryan

Case in point of my previous post. And, Jason, I should mention that within the LDS religion I have come to know some of the most gently, humble, meek, charitable, giving, forgiving, and all around Christ-like people you will ever hope to meet. I have met many such people OUTside of the LDS religion as well. Some are Muslims and Jews. I would dearly like to be found possessing the same characters. Bryan

Yes. You have pointed out one of the sticky points of the pride vs. humility ballance. I'm on a personal quest to be more humble and less judgemental. So after a year or so of trying so hard to not look down on other people, for any reason, I see somebody do or say the exact kind of thing I've been trying to stop. Then I think to myself, "Hmm. They should be more humble like me." And so I'm right back to where I started. How does one recognize pride in others without being themselves prideful? I honestly don't know the answer to that question. Bryan

:) What are you doing in Europe? I wish I was with you! I went to France on my misison, and I've nto been back since. My wife and I were going to go this summer (in fact we would be there right now ) but my sister got married, then my wife's brother got married. After two trips out west, we were out of vacation money and time. I've asked to be admitted to the Open and Adult forums. I'm curious to see what kind of topics are in them. What you said (above) reminds me of two stories... First: On my mission I spent a summer in Cherbourg, on the Normandy coast. In Europe, the missionaries are a much larger factor in the members lives then they seem to be here, most likely because a normal branch consists of 3 or 4 core families and then the usual scattering of singles and part member families. When the branch I was in wanted to have a beach party, they planned it on our P-Day so we could some. We had to ask for permission from the President, as normally the beaches in France are off limits. he gave us permission. As soon as we arrived at the beach, every single child under the age of nine or ten stripped down to nothing and stayed that way until we left. That was surprising enough, but what was more shocking was that about half of the women in the branch kept to French tradition and ditched their tops for the day. Some of them were mothers and grandmothers clearly were not worried about their long since vanished youthful figures, while others were teenage girls who were extremely attractive. One of the other Elders could not contain his shock, and even a little disgust, and he made a comment how he would feel much more comfortable if the women would please all get dressed. The branch president, who's wife and 14 year old daughter were both topless, chuckled and said "You have to understand, Elder. Here in France, we are comfortable in our skin." None of them got dressed. At the time I didn't understand what this meant, "comfortable in our skin." Now I think I do... it means simply that they are not ashamed of their skin. Plain and simple. Second: My little five year old son is all boy, and he loves to dress up as Spiderman, Zorro, and recently, Nephi (as seen in the Arnold Freeburg painting of Lehi's family on the ship.) Quit often when he has friends over the mood strikes him to switch costumes, and the process seems to require him to strip down to nothing. Watching the friends reactions is always interesting. A few days ago we had over two little boys who are new in the ward - my wife was watching their kids as part of a babysitting swap. I was in my office working when one of the boys poked his head in and said, in a tattle-tale voice, "[Your son] is naked!" He clearly expected me to perform some sort of correctional behavior. "Is that a problem?" I asked the little guy with a soft smile. He looked confused and stood in my doorway for a moment rubbing his hands nervously. It was 100% clear what was going on here... in his house, and thus in his little innocent mind, being naked was a punishable offense. He didn't know how to respond to the fact that I wasn't getting upset. Yesterday my son had another friend over... a little girl (not LDS) from across the street. I came up stairs just in time to witness my son naked in the living room in the process of ditching the Zorro costume in favor of Spiderman. The neighbor girl was playing with a doll and was clearly unaffected by her friends nudity. In Minnesota, where we live, Mormons are few and far between, and the closest member of the church lives about three miles away. All of our kid's neighborhood friends are Non LDS. I'm not saying this as a blanket statement, but it seems to me that the fellow LDS people we know are much more uptight about the human body then most of our religious, church-going non-LDS neighbor's. The little girl I just mentioned has two older brothers, ages about six and eight. I've seen all three of their kids outside naked on a few occasions. It seemed to be more spontaneous then planned, and their parents soon ushered them back in doors with laughter on their faces. And next door to us is a young family of four - their kids are constantly outside in nothing but underwear in the summer, and a few times I've knocked on their door and had it opened by naked kids. Contrast that to our best friends in the ward. Just about every time they come over my son manages to appear without a shirt, and every time, the mother of this family says "Hey! Your naked!" in a disapproving tone. Like the little boy I mentioned earlier, she seems to expect us to take action. This happens so often that I finally said to her, "Since when did not having a shirt qualify as naked? I think you need to get your terms straight." Then I beckoned my son to me, gave him a hug, kissed him on the cheek, and patted his little tummy.

Hello! This is my first post on LDSTalk.com. Until today I didn't even know this forum existed and I offer my thanks to those who have taken their time to create and maintain it. Hat's off to you! Ok, so, lately this topic has been on my mind a lot (see subject). I mean, it's an idea that has kicked around in the back of my head for years, but over the last few months it has surfaced and spent a lot of time at the front of my head. I think it started about six months ago when a prominent, educated, respected sister in the ward bore her testimony. She had recently been to a NON-LDS wedding, and commented how sad it was that the bride and groom were only married for time, and how disappointing it was to know that the bride was not (can I say this word in here?) a virgin. "You could just see in her eyes that she was not a chaste young woman." Then the whopper: "Why can't the rest of the world just see and understand how much more pure, wholesome, and clean we are as members of the Lord's true church?" What? I did a double take to see if she was serious. She was. Then I looked around. All the adults who were not wrestling with little kids or asleep were all nodding their heads in agreement with deeply, seriously, approving looks on their faces. Good grief! Since then I have been paying more attention in talks, lessons, and most of all, testimony meetings. Hardly a Sunday goes by that someone does not manage to slip in a comment about how we are "better" then everyone else. Of course, it's never worded so bluntly, as that would be prideful. But it's there, plain and simple, none the less. I'm going to butcher the spelling on this word: Ramiumptium. Remember them? The towers on which people went to pray. "Oh Lord! Thank you for making us so much better then our brethren!" It's down right scary how close we are at turning our own pulpits into a ramiumptium. Now, before I go on, I need to let all of you know a little about my wife and I, lest some of you do the Mormon/Christian thing and judge the whooping daylights out me. My wife and I both hold current temple recommends. We attend on an almost monthly basis. We are full tithe payers. We were married in the temple. I went on a mission. We are active and we fulfill our callings. We have two kids who are used to daily prayer, Sunday afternoon family home evenings, and scripture study when we make time. You get the idea. All that being said, I have a hard time stomaching all the Mormon culture garbage that goes on in the church. Just a few examples: * My wife has recently returned to school full time to become a doctor. As in M.D. As in med school. You would not BELIEVE how many women in the church have said to her, in one form or another "You should be staying home and having more kids. Two is not enough." Or, how many men have said to me "Why are you letting your wife do this?" and "You realize she will earn more money then you when she's done, right?" (too bad they don't make a little yellow face that's puking - I would use it here.) * About once a year I like to take a weekend and spend it alone or with a close friend in the woods. No fishing, no hunting. Just hike to a remote spot, sit, think, and read. I'll bring my camera in hopes of encounters with wildlife. I like to leave Friday after work and come back Sunday night. I take my scriptures and get a ton of reading done. When people ask where I am, and my wife tells them, several wives in the ward have commented "Oh! I would NEVER let my husband go camping on Sunday!" * My seven year old daughter's Easter dress this spring was sleeveless. Not the kind with a thin strap over her shoulders. Just a nice, full length dress with no sleeves. On Easter Sunday one of the sisters who would never let her husband camp on Sunday said to my wife, "Do you think it's appropriate to let your daughter wear a sleeveless dress?" "Why wouldn't it be?" asked my wife. "Well!" shocked at my wife's apparent ignorance. "At some point you need to teach her modesty before it's too late!" * I recently took the teachers and priests camping for a week to a very remote corner of the country. While there, two of the young men went skinny dipping several times. They did it mostly after dark when everyone else was in their tents or it was too dark to see - or during the day they would jump in the lake, take off their suits, swim for a while, then put them back on before getting out. It was perfectly innocent and fun. The Sunday after we returned I was approached by two adults who scolded me for not putting a stop to such an inappropriate activity. When I tried to explain that there was nothing even remotely inappropriate about what they had done, it was perfectly clear that they had made up their minds. I was wrong and they were right. * A family was sitting behind us in the chapel before the meeting started. "Dad" said a little boy, pointing to an active brother in the ward who works for the school district. "I saw that man at my school, and he was drinking a PEPSI!" Quick! How would you respond? "Shhh!" said the dad. "Don't worry about him. You just need to make sure that YOU never do anything that makes Jesus sad." I could go on and on and on and on. It all makes me sad. We preach forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance. But I fear we are a church of hypocrites. The end. P.S. No, I am not going apostate. My testimony is not shaken. I'm mature enough to separate the gospel from the people in it. :) Bryan