Abraham

Hi, Not that this was your origianl question, the veil is not removed from the preexistence at death. In other words at mortal (temporal) death one cannot remmber the preexistence. (until later even if the person goes to pardise). Also, the veil only applies to our six senses, not to our spiritual senses. That means our spirit still remembers and can hint to us what there is beyond. If we read Alma 34:32-34 we read that the same spirit that posseses our body in this life has power to posses our body in that that eternal realm and that we will not change and think 'God will beat us with a few stripes and we will be saved in the kingdom of God'. Therefore, that is scriptural evidence that the veil remains in place until sometime before the judgment, or may afterwards. Lastly, the veil is porportionately as thick as we are to it. In other words as we become closer to the Spirit and Chirst we get closer to the veil and so it 'seems' thinner. As we rebel, disobey, and rely on the natural man we are further away so the veil to us is 'thicker' or harder to penetrate. I hope this helps. Abraham

There willl be an announcment of tithing has changed from one tenth to one fifth. (For those mathematically challenged one fifth is twice as much as one tenth) JK hahahahah Abraham

Send me your em if you feel comfortable. I have the best lists for 72 hour kits. And even if they are too extensive for your activity. It might be good to include so people can augment theirs. Abraham

Goofball - if you are referring to the resurrection of the few, (and the ongoing resurrection) as "a" first resurrection it could be seen that way, but by definition, this is not the morning nor any part of the first resurrection. If anything, it is a resurreciton to testify of the veracity of Christ's power over death, and I'm not talking about those who have been brought back to life (after eally dying) either, such as Lazerus. Now, as far as the Second Resurrection, that is truly rather curious, but if I were her I would not aqcuiesce to the Second, I'd act using my own coined phrase "just-as-if-i-cation" and act "just as if" she (as we all should) were going to come forth in the First Resurrection. As we know sometime scripture (read PB) is not everyting we think it is. Perhaps she has a special mission to perform here upon the earth and is going to be held back. The brethern have told us that virtually all, and I use this term loosely (active) member will come forth in the first resurrection. Let me give you an example, my tribe has been declared in my PB but I am not of the 12 tribes. You see sometimes we don't always get what we expect. BTW - mine is a very special mission, so not to worry (like my wife) hee hee. The Lord will call when he needs her. Tell her not to give up. This may be her test. Abraham

Sorry I've been away so long, but you are correct on all counts. Nice work!! Your bro in the go, Abraham

We know that Lehi was from the tribe of Manessah (the Book of Alma tells us that) but where in the Book of Mormon does it say Ishmael is from the tribe of Ephraim. (Hint: it was in the original Book of Mormon as translated by J.S.) How do we know where it is. (Of course I have the answer). I will give this a couple of days, or until someone sleuths this one out. Abraham

A couple in our Ward just came back from Singapore mission and told of the FIRST time ever that native born Chinese had a temple trip for youth doing baptisms for the dead (in Hong Kong of course). These were not foreign nationals or expatriots but real Chinese youth going to the temple. It was a very touching story. I know you all enjoyed the story about the Cninese government high official who came to SLC and after visting Welfare Square and learned about fast offerings paid his offering the next day. We more than any other are making headways there. My brother-in-law is a Fundamentalist (anti Mormon). He told us he and other like him would sew Bibles into their coats and clothes and smuggle them across the border into China- breaking the law, but felt great that they broke the law for Christ's sake. As you know we have been told that we as LDS will go in the front tdoor or not at all. I felt a very bad spirit when my bil told me he was not honoring their laws. When visting years ago this same brother in law took two of my sons one 6 an one 8 to the 'store'. While in the car he stried to 'save' them. He told them how bad our salavtion based on words was (though untrue). He continued how he had healed, spoken in tounges, performed miracles etc. etc. My young son, with widsom beyond his age, said, "Hey Mark, those sound like works to me!" That shut him up for a long time. Regards, Abraham

The Mayan Calendar may end in 2012 but my calendar ends in 2010. Doesn't mean a whole lot, since it does not connote the end of the world coinciding. They just ran out of room on the stone. (Obviously a oversimplification!) Abraham

I use a combination - as new revelation comes I altar the old notes. I don't just copy them verbatim. So they kind of evolve. Some stay others don't. Abraham

I know many will finish my title with "after all you can do". That makes it sound like if we do our part the Lord somehow is in our debt. "One" we need to hear more about Grace in Church. "After all we can do" leaves us eons away from the Celestial Kingdom even if only a step - as we are either in our out. It is a complex topic only in the sense that understanding let alone comprehending grace, mercy, and the atonement takes a lot, but is there for the feasting. It is a bit of a conundrum to say without works we cannot be saved, and with works we 'deserve' to be saved. Satan woiuld have us think that it doesn't matter anyway, so why try, why work, why obey, why have faith, why find His Church anyway since he wll as Jacob says, "at last he will beat us with a few stripes and we will be saved in the kingdom of God, yea lie a little, take advantage of a friend, there is no harm in this for tomorrow we die..." I think that is II Ne 8: 28 but could be wrong. but the verse is pretty close. Just study and pray and you will see how we fit in the plan, His plan. BTW - I think I am the only LDS who does not like the analagoy of Robisons called "The Bicycle". It is a wonderful journey however, Abraham

These so-called demons can come in different forms. For example, they (or it) may be a disembodied spirit who we call "cling-ons" have died and their spirit does not know where to go, they are as it were lost. Contraray to popular belief not everyone just gets vacuumed up "into the light" sort of like the movie "The Sixth Sense" They can affect our thoughts and emotions to some degree kind of like having a spiritual virus. Secondly, the demon may be a minion of Lucifer who has been sent here to fulfull what he (Satan) promised he would do to posses the bodies created from the beginning. These are spirits who have listend and thus hearkened to Satan's lies that it is too late, they are totally and completely lost, that there is no light. For eons they have been lied to and are in so muc darkness they have come to believe those lies and do not have the common sense to say something like "Satan has never told me the truth, why do I believe him when he tells me Ihave to serve him." NOW THIS IS STRICLTY MY OPINON BASED ON SOME EXPERIENCES AND NOT, I REPEAT NOT DOCTRINE - some of the rebellious spirits who followed Satan were closer to the fence than others who were the worst and most evil on Satan's side. Therefore, some spirts are easier to get rid of than others - I guess I'll leave it at that since I do not make it a habit of spewing conjecture. Finally, for this post anyway, some of us wonder why evile spirits (deomns) do not leave at the command of the Priesthood. This is a touchy subject, but in short, sometimes, we (you) become so comforable with our "little friends or companions" that we do not want to be left alone. We also have been lied to believe that without those influneces we would be left to our own designs and we are worthless (remember lies, lies, lies). Therefrore, we won't let go of the very thing that is destroying us as a false security blanket that blenkets our spirit. So, a PH blessing is first, but have faith, and exercise hope in the Atonment, not in the arm of the flseh. (See II Neph 4: about v. 33 or so where it talks about those who put their faith in the arm of the flesh". Give the demons permission to leave, command him/her to leave _BTW there is a theory that that is why some have same sex attraction since a male may have a female "cling-on" and so have what appears to be same-sex attraction when it is really the spirit who is affecting and displaying that kind of 'opposite" attraction. Again, stricly conjecture - but there is some evidence for that. Fill your spirit and soul with light and seek further counsel from those who know. Be careful not to just accept a naive attempt by some that say something like "jut read your scriptures" they will 'go away'. It is more compleicated than that. Would you have someone read for appendicites?? May the Lord, your brother lift and deliver you. In all humility, Abraham

In general, and I apologize if I missed this point in a previus post, unless your Bishop directly advises you not to partake of the Sacrament, then you (we) should partake. By not partaking we are negating the effects of the Atonement in our lives and also, though well-intentioned, refuse to repent, because without the Atonment our repentance is in vain. Don't be too hard on yourself. Let's remember repentance is an on-going process for which the Lord, in his mercy and grace has provided the Sacrament so we can be renewed with His Spirit weekly, thought weakly also, so we can be cleansed. Abraham

Abr. 3: 18-19 18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two aspirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are bgnolaum, or eternal. 19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am amore intelligent than they all. and John 10:30, they are one in mind, will, spirit, (but not body because they are Father and Son of course) but what one thinks because they are prefectly aligned each knows what the other is and does this includes the Holy Ghost. Don't forget he said to be ye therfore perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect, but in speaking to the Nephites he addes "as I or your Father is perfect. He had grown line upon line, precept upon precept and gained empathy, and experientially via the Atonement at Gethsemane and reexperiencing that at Calvary then was perfected. Abraham

1) If you're that concerened about revelation regarding temple work, and following the living prophet, maybe you should wait to go to the temple. 2) You receive your endowment not 'get it' ot 'take it out', if you are endowed with power you don't get to take it with you, it is received like an endowment or gift from the Spirit and the Lord. 3) Focus on preparation and the message of the temple not the mechanics. I know you are from a Western Culture that focuses always on the 'bottom line" e.g., efficiencies, numbers, etc, but you are missing the point. If you get a chance to attend a devotional by the temple President you will be enlightened. All the best in your quest, Abraham

Knowing is a spectral thing. Knowing from a Primary-aged child is a bit different from a Patriarch or an Apostle knowing. I like the encapsulation in II Ne 2:8. What we must do however, is take our 'knowledge' and build it until it becomes perfect. Abraham

If you want the rest of the article it is named "Disputatious Doctrines" It is one of a million awesome articles. Merry Christmas, Abraham

I could go on but will try to keep my remarks succinct as I know sometimes the antis can really make us think. Number one, why would you let a doubt overshadow or overpower what the Holy Spirit, a member of the Godhead by the way, has testified to you is true. Just put it aside, the doubt that is, and you can worry about the answer some other time. Also, I have never seen/read any anit literature that wasn't weak, laughable, and overall just a joke. A point regarding Revelation, and I apologize if someone said this, but there is much evidence that the Book of Revelation was not the last book written in the NT. There were other books added, so you see the NT was not put together in chronological order, so the anits point I guess we would have to throw out the other NT books that are "additions' that John so-called forbade. Every anit is living in the large and spacious building with no foundation. Their arguments have been hashed, rehashed, and regugatated and like ' a dog to its vomit' they return over and over again. Like has been said there are so much truth and light in the fullness of the Gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have a gazillion articles 'proofs' but they have nothing to do whether a 'thing is true or not" (Nibley) It comes from personal revelation and that relationship with the Holy Ghost is all that counts - along with obedience, faith, love etc. But you get my point. Take a moment are read the following and this is just a pico-tip of the iceberg but you'll get the point: The Completeness and Infallibility of the Holy Bible There are strong feelings among anti-Mormons about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regarding the church's eighth article of faith: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." Those who hold the Bible to be the only source of divine authority and doctrine cannot accept the Book of Mormon or any other sacred writing--for obvious reasons. Unfortunately, anti-Mormons often deceitfully describe the church's use of the Bible in unkind and untrue ways, characterizing our study of the Bible as a mere pretense of biblical Christianity--a convenient tool to mislead others. Such statements are shamefully inaccurate. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have great respect and reverence for the Bible. It is studied in the church as the word of God and a source of truth and understanding. I love the Bible. I rejoice in its teachings and in the spirit of truth it provides. The Bible is masterful in teaching the life of Jesus Christ and is a strong testament of his role as Savior and Redeemer. But the question before us is not the power or value of the Bible but rather its completeness and infallibility. The facts in this case are fairly evident. The Bible is not complete. It does not say it is complete (the Bible never refers to itself); in fact, it strongly suggests the existence of other sacred writings. Anti-Mormons argue that the Bible does say it is complete and that it does refer to itself. However, to them the phrase "the Word of God," or "the Word," refers to the Bible exclusively since it is the only scripture they will accept. When we understand that those references actually mean any word spoken by God or his prophets to the children of earth, everything changes. A little history about the Bible may be helpful here. Many people today think of the Bible as one book, although it is in fact a collection of books, letters (epistles), and histories that have been written, rewritten, translated, and retranslated. The Bible didn't just appear; it was assembled, disassembled, and reassembled as new ideas and new material emerged. The Muratorian Fragment of A.D. 180 did not include the books of Hebrews, James, and 1 and 2 Peter, but it did include the Apocalypse of Peter. At the same time, the Shepherd of Hermas was considered by Origen to be divinely inspired. Clement of Alexandria considered a "secret" book of Mark to be genuine. Celsus claimed that Christians altered the text of scripture and changed its character to "enable them to deny difficulties in the face of criticism." In about A.D. 300 the church considered the books of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation to be spurious. However, the Epistle of Barnabas, 1 Clement, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Acts of Paul, and the Apocalypse of Peter were admitted to the canon of scripture but later removed.30 More than a thousand years later, Martin Luther declared the biblical books of Esther, Jude, Hebrews, Revelation, and 2 Peter, among others, unworthy to be among the "true and noblest books of the new testament." Luther considered the book of James to be "an epistle of straw," having "no gospel quality to it."31 Perhaps he did not approve of these books because the teachings they contained were at odds with his personal preference for the Augustinian doctrine of grace alone as the key to salvation. The first English language Bible was published less than 500 years ago. The popular King James Version was published in 1611, the Revised King James Version in 1885, the American Translation in 1931, the Revised Standard Version in 1947, the Good News Bible and the Jerusalem Bible in 1966, the New American Bible and the New England Bible in 1970, and the Common Bible in 1973.32 How many English translations of the Bible do we need? Clearly, for many the Bible has been and continues to be an evolving scripture. As for the question of completeness, we might consider a few referenced biblical statements for which we have no reference. Matthew 2:23 says that Jesus "came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene." Matthew is citing a text unknown to us. To which prophets does he refer? Nowhere in the Old Testament does it say that Jesus will be called a Nazarene. One of the most popular of Christian scriptures is the Savior's statement "It is more blessed to give than to receive." We find this quotation in Acts 20:35 as part of a statement from Paul to the elders at Ephesus. This statement from the Savior does not appear in any other book of the Bible. Paul may have read or heard this statement elsewhere and then quoted the Master's divine words. It doesn't bother me that neither Matthew's nor Paul's statement includes a footnote to another scripture. But those who argue for a complete canon of scripture in the Bible--nothing excluded--beg a serious question. The Bible is scripture--it is the word of God and should be reverenced, studied, and appreciated for its immense contribution to the salvation of the children of God. However, the Bible has been used for both good and evil. Unprincipled peopled have used Bible verses as justification for all sorts of mischief. Others have been led into unproductive and even damning paths because they have failed to understand and apply wise interpretation to Bible statements. The Bible has been used as a weapon against righteousness by evil-disposed pastors, priests, and pagans alike. The Bible, as with any scripture or statement by any religious leader, must be carefully considered against what is known and understood about truth and salvation. It is important that all scripture be translated correctly. I will yield to respected Protestant writer Lloyd Averill for the last word on this biblical inerrancy issue. He writes, It is clear that Calvin cannot be identified with the scriptural literalism affirmed by present-day fundamentalists. Nor, indeed, can any other major figure in the history of Christian thought prior to 1800. Contrary to fundamentalist claims, the doctrine of biblical inerrancy as they have formulated it is not a return to primitive Christianity or to Christian orthodoxy. Rather, it was an innovation fashioned scarcely more than a hundred years ago as a weapon to be used against the modernist movement.33

Hi, Though I can stretch my LDS beliefs and put my mind around your quote, it feels more New Agey to me and that makes me hesitant to try and rationalize it under the umbrella of the Lord's true Church - as it is a slippery slope to embracing other gray truths. God is already perfect for example, and is not growing in experience, knowledge, intelligence, or wisdom. He is not surprised by any action by man as he knows all things and that means the end from the beginning. However, your religious cultural rearing lends to those truths which sound logical. There are too many errors in your quote that I personally cannot accept. At the same time I accept you as a brother, and love you for your defense of your brothers and sisters (us). We fully respect and embrace your priveldge to worthip the God of your choice - as you do ours. See Josh 24 in regard to 'other gods', especially vers 15 the most misquoted verse in all of scripture. May the Lord bless you! Abraham

For my two cents worth, the Great Lakes/NY theory is gaining momentum and he has some very compelling ratiionale. I disagree however, for a number of reasons. The barter in those days would of had to be Sodium Choride (everyday salt) for health and survival reasons, and the one place that has a salt-mine was in the Yucatan. Also, the almost countless ruins there suggest a more diverse and metropolitan civic centers once lived there. . There are evidences of markets and blah blah blah. Also, remember that Mornoi never said the plates were buried in Cumorah, he just said they were buried in 'a hill'. So we are unsure how the plates to to NY - maybe Moroni rode a buffalo up there (or maybe even a curulum - or a horse). A very good freind of mine has taken tens of thousands picutres of the lands in the Yucatan - and is writing a book on his epxereinces. So, my bet is on his evidence not because of any research I have done personally. We had him speak at a YM/YW fireside and we were totally mesmerized for two hours. One thing we agree on is that the Panama Canal area is not the 'narrow neck of land'. I could go on but why, Abraham

Hi, We should treat the Chapel as an ordinance room which it is. Addditonally, each of us should memorize the sacrament prayers and then go over them as the emblems are blessed. I promise you, if we do that the sacrament as well as the Atonement will come to mean much more to us (See also II Nephi Ch. 9). If we as MP holders get to participate that is a special bonus, blessing, and humble opportunity to serve our brothers and sisters. BTW - if we worreid more about ourselves during the administration than the Deacons tie, tied funny, maybe we could actually bring the Atonment to life in our own part of His universe. In this case it IS about Him, and me. All the best - see you in Zion (See Aof #10) May Peace by Yours, Abraham

HI, I have often wanted to go into the CoC temple and apologize for the overzealous, shall we say, LDS who try to wrestle away your right to worship the Lord according to the dictates of your own conscience(s) (See AoF 11). We should know better and be more respectful to you and I hope most are. I believe you and we have had meaningful discourses as well as cooperative efforts regarding church history and I for one appreciate the records that the CoC have maintaned then shared with LDS scholars. BTW - I heard a rumor that the LDS Church donated some funds to the building to your temple in KC, is that true? It would be a nice Christian gesture if we did. All the best, Abraham

There is a slight difference between doctrine and principles and beliefs and practices. The 13th Artical of Faith is a good place to start - and don't forget they are canonized scriptures. Abraham

Use a 5 gallon or 6 gallon bucket with a Gamma lid. Then moisture, roadents, and weavels won't have so easy of a time getting in. Google Gamma lids - they are way cool. If you put the flour, if possible in the freexzer for a week it will killl any residual insects -then you can store it as you use it. Some keep it in the freezer but it takes up a lot of room, and you should be roatating it anyway. Abraham

I don't think He'll catch the game. Go Utah go BYU - anyone who prays for BYU is a spiritual adolescent. I mean that in the best possible sense. hahahaha (BTW - I am rooting for BYU - but no one ever said that the team with the most members gets an advantage.) At judgment day, I don't think the number of victories willl account for much. (Paraphrased from Coach Mendehall in Colorado Springs on Novermber 14, 2008 - I was there.) Abraham

Wasn't it Christ who grew line upon line and precept upon precept and he was perfect. Remember the GC talk on knowing enough but not all. It is better to be in the right Gospel, worshipping the right Christ than to remain outside of the wedding feast expecting to get all the light and truth before attempting to enter. If A = B, and B = C, then A must = C. Pi and the pythagoreum therom will come later. Deriviatives will come as long as you are puttng one foot in front of the other. On a temporary basis, it is perfectly acceptable to borrow someone elses testimony even if three are things you can't accept now. One day you will see how it all fits together. Don't strain at a gnat. If you drag that ball and chaiin around you will finally give up. Please read II Nephi 31: 19 18 - 20. I would counsel you to seek revelation, true, real, palpable revelation and the truth will come. Remember the world will never get it - but we must. Salvation was never meant to be cheap. Look what it cost the Savior and the Prophet Joseph. Focus on the atonment, (seeII Nephi Ch 9). Nothing else will really matter. Thank you for your poignant quesiton and for being on the Lord's side. BTW - you can see Venus during the day, you just need to know where to look - it is the same with the truths of the Gospel, most cannot see, don't let that disstract you (us). A infant astronomer, Abraham