SightByFaith

I agree that the world is disinterested in "absolute truth." I'm just not sure that I would go so far as to say that so few can still be found, or "reclaimed" as I would put it. Granted, it is probably due to the doctrines I believe that I view it this way, but I do not understand that God's reach to His children is limited to this world. There are some who will not be reclaimed here, be the reasons what they may, but who will be in the next phase of existence.And as the darkness grows blacker in our world, the contrast between the light of absolute truth and spiritual darkness gets ever more stark, even to the point that it may finally sway those who right now may be blinded by the post-modern worldview. Who knows what events lie ahead which may serve to upset their indifference, complacency, or spiritually-starved contentedness... Thanks. That is what I had understood you to be saying.

I have never understood that the Church is our primary teacher. The responsibility to teach rests first with the parents/family. Second with the Church. So from the beginning we should be learning more outside Sunday meetings than inside them. Also keep in mind that a big purpose of our fellowship is to strengthen one another. If you are firm in your testimony, you need to attend as much to help others learn as to continue your own development. Everyone has a different experience in life, and each lesson in Church classes/quorums presents opportunity for members to lift one another and share those experiences which are unique to them, but still "connect" with others. For me, it's simply a learning experience everywhere, as it seems that the more I learn, the more I realize there is to learn, even from the repetition.

I agree. I was speaking to these statements from the OP: I have no sympathy whatsoever for Petrino.Whatever happens to him will be no more than he deserves, and probably far less.These statements seem to be devoid of compassion. They seem to say that, because this man committed moral sins, we should not feel or express compassion for him when judgment is imposed upon him. They even go so far as to suggest that whatever judgment does befall him will not actually have been enough punishment for what he's done. So my comment was made in this context—that if we cannot feel or express compassion, we seem to be devoid of charity to some degree and dissociated from our Heavenly Father to a commensurate degree.Does that clarify?

There is a great irony being discussed here, in my opinion. We might all agree that only as we approach the knowledge and discernment of the individual human soul which God possesses can we truly understand what motivates people to do what they do, and the amount of light they act against in those doings. So, the closer we get to God, the greater our discernment will be—not only of right and wrong as moral questions, but good and bad as it pertains to the human soul. But I am reminded of something the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, the origin of which doctrine I accept as Divine: The nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs. My talk is intended for all this society; if you would have God have mercy on you, have mercy on one another. (Teachings, p. 241) It very well may be that person X is bad, but we are not judged by his badness, but by our own conduct, thoughts, and desires which constitute our response to his badness. And if we are indifferent to the suffering of the wicked when they are justly dealt with, or if we revel in the justice heaped upon them—or that it is heaped upon them—we endanger our own souls: It is one evidence that men are unacquainted with the principles of godliness to behold the contraction of affectionate feelings and lack of charity in the world. The power and glory of godliness is spread out on a broad principle to throw out the mantle of charity. God does not look on sin with allowance, but when men have sinned, there must be allowance made for them. (ibid.) So on one hand, the closer we get to God, the better we can judge. But at the same time, we cannot get close to God without feeling more compassionate toward those upon whom justice must be imposed.

I'm not sure who may have suggested that missionaries just shrug off when investigators say things like "You're a cult." A simple, "What makes you say that?" might elicit some of the reasons. Then you can ask, "Where did you hear that? That's not what we believe." Peharps that will lead into a more meaningful (to them) discussion of our real doctrines. Just asking questions will usually uncover the "anti" material, so I continue to believe the the best preparation—and that spoken of by the Lord which will make us to "not fear"—is a knowledge of truth. But I agree that if people do just shrug off such statements in order to "keep teaching," that may not be the best approach. Each situation will differ, and being open to guidance of the Spirit in the moment will always be a good course.

Thanks for sharing your experience. After reading about your conversion, I'd offer that the challenge is that not all people are the same. Some people have very sophisticated ways of processing and understanding information, while others process information in a very linear fashion. The spirits of some are gifted with great discernment. (D&C 46:23) Others very much rely on the testimony of others, (see D&C 46:14), including scriptural testimonies. And others still may be in a condition in which they are inappropriately blaming the Church or the Gospel for offenses against them (perceived or real) and are therefore vulnerable to anti-Mormon messages.When a person whose testimony is weak—or whose natural faculties are more susceptible to manipulation—reads anti-Mormon material, seeds can be sown which may be very difficult to uproot. I've seen it happen. Their attention is diverted from their God-given faith to the shaky foundation of man's opinion. And while they may not be able to realize it, they may still make decisions based upon their newly-misguided views. Others, like you, are able to discern more clearly. To them, anti-Mormon material may serve to strengthen their faith. I'm not sure which is the rule and which is the exception, but I always discourage people from reading what I understand to be anti-Mormon material. I think it's better to "lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing." (Moro. 10:30) But if and when we are exposed to it, or seek it for our own reasons, may we do so with caution and prayer!

If its spoken or written intent is to destroy faith, confidence or testimony in the Father, the Savior, the Holy Ghost, God's called and ordained prophets and apostles, or the Restored Gospel, it is anti-Mormon IMO. It all comes down to intent. So two people can say the same thing, and one I view as a differing opinion (informed or otherwise), while the other I view as anti-Mormon. With this in mind, we LDS should be aware of ourselves when speaking to those of other faiths. If the intent (perceived or actual) of our "sharing the gospel" is to destroy their faith, confidence or testimony in those things they sincerely believe—as opposed to our intent being to engender faith, confidence and testimony in the Restored Gospel—we are going about it wrong. So yes, King Lamoni... that Great Spirit is God... (Alma 18:28)

I understand both your points, and I am in agreement that confusion must have immediately resulted from the Fall. And I agree that it is pointless to speculate on the matter of how many false gods were imagined by men in the early years. Perhaps it would simply have sufficed for me to say that at some point (perhaps in the Garden before Satan first approached Adam and Eve) there was in the mind of man but one God—the true God—whose identity, character, and attributes were not convoluted to him. This is the crux—in the beginning man knew the true God, and as sin entered the scene, man began to lose that clear knowledge of Him.And your last point is synonymous with the first main point I was getting at—that the gods worshiped in other religions are, to one degree or another, aspects of the true God—the God Adam and Eve knew in the Garden. And the second main point was that, to God and man, this falls short of what God desires for us—hence the Restoration. It is from this standpoint that I would like my original post to be viewed. I was not aiming to steer the discussion to one of identifying when various understandings of God came into being. And I don't think either your or my comments are out of place. LDS cannot be expected to participate in this discussion with other Chrisitans if we are disallowed to share our beliefs.

We feel the very spirit of God all the time. Every day. That is what the light of Christ is. (D&C 84:45-47; 88:7-13) But feeling the influence of the Holy Ghost typically occurs for different reasons than those for which we feel the light of Christ. I mean, the light of Christ compels us to seek truth and do right (D&C 84:46) and helps us judge between right and wrong (Moro. 7:18), but the Holy Ghost confirms to us when we do right (Moro. 8:26), and when we have found truth (Moro. 10:4). And the latter is an important distinction when we're discerning whether or not we're feeling the influence Holy Ghost. And that's because one of the Holy Ghost's primary functions is to reveal truth to us. Whether He is revealing to us that something we've heard is true, revealing to us that something we're doing will harm us, or any other thing, you cannot "feel the Spirit" (as in the Holy Ghost) without receiving revelation (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 328), even if it is something that has been revealed to you before (John 14:26).

In saying that there were no false gods, I am not suggesting that absolutely no false gods of any kind existed for, as you point out, mortality is full of them—luxury, comfort, possessions, even man himself. But in the context of the OP, I am suggesting that after the Fall, Adam and Eve knew and knew of but one God—the one whose voice they heard "from the way toward the Garden of Eden," and unto whom they built an altar and made sacrifice. (Moses 5:4-5) To them there was no Buddha. No Allah. No Ra. These were future fabrications of man—by-products of man's eventual straining to see through the spiritual veil separating him from his Creator, which veil is made more opaque through sin. These gods are constructs made from remnants of the God Adam and Eve knew—the pieces which man could yet recall. That and bits and pieces of his own imagination. And they are gods which would not be known in the individual or collective human mind for centuries or millennia from Adam's day, although there were, no doubt, earlier false gods among men than these, Satan himself being the first (Moses 5:13,18,28).But in addition to knowing the true God, Adam and Eve were taught the way back to Him (Moses 5:6-11) and they, in turn, taught it to their children (Moses 5:12). So not only was the true God known, but His true Gospel as well. It was not until man began to sin against God that he began to lose his knowledge of God. (Moses 5:13-16) And hence we have Cain saying, "Who is the Lord that I should know him?" (Moses 5:16) And many men have groped in darkness as to the knowledge of God, to one degree or another, ever since. So my point is only that when Adam and Eve fell, there was no confusion on the earth on the subject of who or what God was. He was known, and man knew no other god. All the false gods which followed came to be as man sought for that knowledge which he had originally possessed, but which had been lost through sin. (Alma 12:10-11)

I think that to begin to address the question of the OP we, as Christians, must go back to a very simple, but profound truth. When Adam and Eve left the Garden there were no false gods. There were no misconceptions of God. There were no disputes about His character or attributes. None. God was known to man as man knows himself. It was only as men began to serve the "prince of this world" that God's true identity began to be lost. In other words, while God cannot be truly known except as what He truly is, the gods that men have come to serve—at least those gods in the precepts of religion of whom it can truly be said are greater to some degree in knowledge, power, and morality than man himself—are themselves partial images of the God of Adam and Eve. For there is nothing good that does not come from Christ—and ultimately, therefore, the Father. (Moro 7:16) And to punctuate the all-inclusiveness of that doctrine, "we may know with a 'perfect knowledge'" that the good in the varied gods worshiped by man is no more or less than an actual glimpse of the identity of the true God. That said, it would seem that our task as human beings, which beings are driven from birth by an inner light to reach for and reclaim perfect knowledge of our eternal Parentage, would be to never be satisfied until we knew without doubt that we had, in fact, reclaimed that knowledge of Him. For that is why were are here—to obtain eternal life, which is to know (again) the Father, and his Son. (John 17:3) So while, on a certain level, I am inclined to agree that the God of Christianity (as understood generally) fits the mold of an all-interested and widely-known God better than any other in the religious world, that image of God—that knowledge of God—yet falls short of that which God desires for us. It is not enough—for Him or for us—that we satisfy ourselves with what is generally known of Him which, while significantly more than the knowledge of Him offered by many other religions, is still but an incomplete portrait of the God known by the first of men. That is one purpose, above all, of the Restored Gospel—to reintroduce man to the full knowledge of God. (D&C 84:19) For we are saved no faster than we acquire this knowledge (Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings, p. 217) and we are saved only to the degree that we possess it (D&C 131:6) and are faithful to it (Mosiah 4;12). That is why LDS missionaries preach the Restored Gospel. If it didn't matter...if what the world—even the Christian world—knows of God were good enough, God wouldn't send them.

I think you will find that it is better than you remember it, actually. Because now you're not going for someone else. You're going because you're following a spiritual need—a prompting, if you will. You are more mature now. Your capacity to understand is greater now. Your ability to empathize with others is enhanced because of your life experience. In my opinion you are on the verge of a embarking on very edifying, life-changing journey. But I echo other things that have been said. Do not run faster than you have strength. There simply is no need. God will give you line upon line what you need. There is plenty of time to learn. Plenty of time to ponder and grow. And remember to be as forgiving and accepting toward the members of your ward as you are no-doubt hoping they will be toward you. They are the part of the Church that is imperfect. But it's God's church, so go with humility and confidence and a desire to serve others, and you'll never look back. I promise.

In my high priest group we have to wrench ourselves out each week in order to keep from going long in our quorum meeting, thus making our families wait to go home. In fact, just two weeks ago the bishopric had to get up in Sacrament Meeting and remind everyone to close classes on time (in both post-SC-meeting hours), so it's not just our quorum. Seems like in my ward we're of the opinion that we could go longer than three hours. And why not? The Gospel and Church are each a joy to be a part of.

Mormon describes Satan as "putting" wicked ideas into the hearts of Gadianton and of those who built the tower of Babel (Helaman 6:28-29) I know that this does not speak of thoughts, but the idea of putting them into a heart is clearly metaphorical, since the heart does not think or even "feel," technically. So I understand this to be akin to influencing one's thoughts. Those ideas were Satan's, not the individuals he tempted. So while he does not know the intents of our hearts, or our thoughts, he certainly has power to act upon us in various ways, within the bounds God has set.

Hey PrisonChaplain! Good to see you. I just hopped over from CF. Thought I'd give LDS.net a try. Glad there is one person here I know already! God bless. SBF P.S. Thanks for the article.