Anddenex

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  1. Like
    Anddenex reacted to bytebear in Does morality require a god?   
    " But hey, have fun over there with your straw man while the adults talk. "
  2. Like
    Anddenex reacted to NeedleinA in Does morality require a god?   
    Fact Check: I made no such claim that god helped me find anything, let alone my keys. Omega at random made the claim, "God didn't help you find your car keys". If he is going to make the claim, fine prove his claim is accurate, otherwise you and he are expressing your "opinions" and sadly nothing more.
    the onus is on you to demonstrate the truth of the claim you're making. - correct! "A classic argument from ignorance" - oops, let me know how your foot tastes as we see who really was speaking from a position of ignorance.
    p.s. My post isn't meant to be rude, I just got a kick out of someone trying to toss something in my face, call me ignorant and watching their perceived intellectual superiority backfire.
  3. Like
    Anddenex reacted to Traveler in Does morality require a god?   
    As an engineer and scientist currently working in the field of automation, robotics and artificial intelligence – indeed Occam’s razor is proof – especially concerning application of artificial intelligence.  If we are to prove intelligence or lack of intelligence (which by definition is the ability to learn and respond) on a large scale – say on a global scale and especially the scale of galactic structures then Occam’s razor is an element of proof of intelligent evolution.  Not by its self but in the theater of viable possibilities.
    If you like I can go into much more detail – assuming you have some understanding of mathematical fractals and how such constructs are utilized in the basic elements of Chaos Theory.  If you are not so versed – I will be glad to explain without the details and in more layman terms.  But since fractals and Chaos Theory is a most important means used by scientist validate evolution – if someone believe such notions – as I do and so do many of my self-proclaimed atheists colleges in the scientific fields.  If they understand the basic constructs of mathematical fractals and evolution – then yes I can prove that a G-d is likely and probable which according to the constructs of proof is all that is necessary and sufficient.
     
    BTW - I am also a devout and covenant member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
     
    The Traveler
  4. Like
    Anddenex reacted to UtahTexan in Does morality require a god?   
    That is why I asked for morality to be defined.  And once you do that.....please tell me how you decide which culture is correct?
  5. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from bytebear in Does morality require a god?   
    Or this morality from our distant cousins, so to speak from a evolutionary perspective (another primate), the younger male killed the leader. Like the lion, right after killing leader, he then kills the offspring of all the leaders seed. Why? So he can mate with the females. 
     
     
  6. Like
    Anddenex reacted to zil in Does morality require a god?   
    When I lived in Moscow, I had a Mormon friend who (with her husband) had gone very, very inactive.  They had both been life-long members and had been sealed in the temple, and then something (I don't know what) happened and they drifted away and then some.  (They were never "anti", just not living their covenants.)  Anywho, one day she and I were having a conversation about church stuff, and in the middle of the conversation I came to realize that she had forgotten a great deal - more, I think, that would be accounted for by normal memory loss.  I didn't say anything to her, but this concept was what came to mind:
    Doctrine and Covenants 1:33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.
    For some people, not being able to (correctly) recall the truth may simply be loss of the Spirit; for others, it seems to clearly to be something else.  Meanwhile, I'm happy to report my friend and her husband came back with a bang and before I left, she was the RS President of our branch.
  7. Like
    Anddenex reacted to NeedleinA in Does morality require a god?   
    I agree Zil. Korihor the poor free thinking martyr. Just going about his business obeying the law...
    Alma 30:7, 11. “No Law against a Man’s Belief”
    If there was “no law against a man’s belief,” some people might ask why Korihor was arrested. King Mosiah had issued a proclamation declaring that it was against Nephite law for any “unbeliever [to] persecute any of those who belonged to the church of God” (Mosiah 27:2).
    Clearly, Korihor was entitled to his beliefs, but when he sought to destroy the Church, he broke King Mosiah’s proclamation. It is interesting to note that whereas many in Zarahemla embraced Korihor and his teachings, the people of Ammon, who had lived most of their lives following Korihor-like beliefs, “caused that he should be carried out of the land” (Alma 30:21; see also verses 18–20). They understood the danger of Korihor’s teachings.
  8. Like
    Anddenex reacted to bytebear in Does morality require a god?   
    "If only the plan could be such that everyone was saved.  God has the power, why doesn't he save everyone?"
  9. Like
    Anddenex reacted to bytebear in Does morality require a god?   
    I am thinking of situations like where a Lion will kill the cubs of a competitor.  Or hierarchical systems where you literally have to kill off all the other alphas to become king.   Those are hardly moral choices.  But they are beneficial if you want to preserve your genetic lineage.
  10. Like
    Anddenex reacted to unixknight in Does morality require a god?   
    No worries.  I know you've been juggling multiple conversations.
    By what standard?  Your own personal one?  Some philosopher's?
    Why?  I teach my kids right from wrong long before they're mature enough to understand the reasoning.
    I don't know if you have kids or not, but that hasn't been my experience.  People (especially children with weak impulse control) don't magically become moral just because they understand the reasoning.  Having the understanding alone isn't enough.  One also has to desire to behave morally.  A kid can understand completely why it's wrong to act like a hellion in a restaurant but if they don't want to behave then they won't unless there's a consequence.
    What you call secular morality is just rebranded Judeo-Christian values from centuries past.  The argument that somehow morality naturally evolves as a consequence of human social development is demonstrably untrue.  It's 2016 and we still have genocide happening today even after thousands of years for modern man to learn to get his act together.  If what you're saying here is true then violence, rape and war should be things that have trended downward as we look at the span of human history.  That has not been the case.  In today's secular "enlightened" culture we don't see things being better at all.
    Morality isn't simple at all.  The source of it is.
    I'm not sure why you're still pushing this argument when it's already been debunked as being "My sense of morality is superior to God's."  You're literally saying that your sense of right and wrong is more highly developed than a being whose intellect, wisdom and experience is so vast as to be beyond human understanding.  Can't you see how absurd that is?
  11. Like
    Anddenex reacted to zil in Does morality require a god?   
    Ah, Alma 30:48. I love seeing the scriptures come to life.
  12. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from NeedleinA in Does morality require a god?   
    Well, at least he provided all of us a compliment, we all know how to "tap-dance," other than having two left feet. , but let's be honest, does his post somewhere else really shock anyone with his response. Cyber high fives for everyone!
  13. Like
    Anddenex reacted to NeedleinA in Does morality require a god?   
    So proud of ourselves.
     
    Proof positive...again...
    "It seems that history continues to teach us: You can leave the Church, but you can’t leave it alone. The basic reason for this is simple. Once someone has received a witness of the Spirit and accepted it, he leaves neutral ground. One loses his testimony only by listening to the promptings of the evil one, and Satan’s goal is not complete when a person leaves the Church, but when he comes out in open rebellion against it."
  14. Like
    Anddenex reacted to bytebear in Does morality require a god?   
    "good of the people" 
    That's the problem.  Which people?  All people?  Just you? The Chosen People?  White people?  The unborn?
    Morality is very dependent on what your end goals are, and they are different for virtually every individual, and every clan.  But if there is a god, and he has a plan for humans, then his morality will fit his goals, just as with anyone else.
  15. Like
    Anddenex reacted to unixknight in Does morality require a god?   
    Others have answered this but I'll add my 2 cents' worth.
    So from the point of view of someone who doesn't believe in God then yes, a morality based on religion is just as subjective as any other... But that's my point.  From an atheistic worldview any moral code is subjective.  So what's the point of calling it morality if it's no better or worse than the next guy's?  What does it matter if a moral framework came from God, Richard Dawkins or random letter arrangement in your breakfast cereal?
    It doesn't.
    So the notion of morality itself  then becomes an illusion, a construct used to constrain behavior for the good of the community.  But then it's really no different than a law that isn't enforced by the Government.
    So for morality to have any meaning at all it cannot originate from humans.  It must come externally.  Now if that means it comes from God, space aliens or the mystical spirits of the waterfall it's at least an anchor that isn't subject to the whims of human culture.
    20 years ago, it was generally considered immoral for people of the same sex to sleep together.  Say that now and suddenly you're a homophobe.  Humans are fickle.  We need morality precisely because it mitigates the shifting around.
  16. Like
    Anddenex reacted to estradling75 in Does morality require a god?   
    The external source is problematic...  But any internal code is equality problematic for the exact same reasons....  Therefore your solution of a universal moral code lacks any kind of workable framework on which to build.
    You can't get people to agree on God... nor can you get people to agree morality, because all morality is.. is God by another name... Another arbitrator of right and wrong.
  17. Like
    Anddenex reacted to Traveler in Does morality require a god?   
    Are you implying that there is no evidence of evolving intelligence?  and thus no proof that intelligence superior to man is possible?   If so consider the fact that the level of intelligence that humans currently display did not exist 50,000 years ago would indicate that intelligence is evolving and that is the point.  If it is evolving that is proof that sorne intelligence greater than man's is likely and probable.   The logical assumption is that if evolution is taking place that somewhere in this universe; intelligence has evolved more than here on earth - do you reject this logic?  From a theological point of view the concept is line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.  Also the LDS concept of "eternal progression". 
    So I will ask a simple question - do you believe in evolution?  And is evolution an isotropic principle of our universe?  Do you believe man is the highest possible intelligence in this universe?  Do you believe that the intelligence of man has evolved (advanced) in the last 2,000 years? –at least from a technological standpoint?
     
    Sorry if I seem to be talking down but because you are making assumptions without asking questions - I feel that I must explain in the simplest of terms.   How well do you understand fractals and Chaos Theory?
     
    The Traveler
  18. Like
    Anddenex reacted to unixknight in Does morality require a god?   
    I'll repeat what I said in an earlier post, which doesn't seem to have been noticed considering some of Eric's complaints about people not trying to respond to the original question.
    Morality MUST come from a source external to humanity.  Otherwise morality is subjective and therefore meaningless.  It's that simple.
  19. Like
    Anddenex reacted to bytebear in Does morality require a god?   
    Feelings weren't hurt, but it becomes impossible to have a discussion with someone condescending and arrogant.  So, I bow out since nothing I (or apparently several other people) say will be acceptable to you.
  20. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from unixknight in Does morality require a god?   
    Absolute certainty cannot exist, while making an absolute statement? Always intriguing how a person can make an absolute statement while stating it can't exist. You have declared you have an absolute certainty that absolute certainty can not exist...just a tad bit of irony possibly.
    The last paragraph, I was wondering when this standard feign of frustration would come out. This isn't the first thread you have entered into with LDS. This isn't going to be the last, as you seek to garner evidence for pre-conceived ideas, and you will probably make a similar feign, "Oh my, I am a tad frustrated......" What you actually witnessed is individuals specifying we don't know, one day we will know, and one day you will know with absolute certainty and will claim with absolute certainty that God is just. If you want to believe as you believe, feel free to, but please don't feign frustration when people have been providing you with answers you just don't want to accept, and that is OK, you don't have to accept -- no one on this thread believed you would. They simply answered your question.
  21. Like
    Anddenex reacted to mordorbund in Why do we need a sacrificed mediator?   
    I would suggest that the mechanics of the Atonement are a mystery - that is, they cannot be known except through revelation and that revelation has not yet come. Prophets ancient and modern have used metaphors and analogies to get us pondering on it so that such knowledge may be "caught" rather than "taught". Of course, the failings of analogies is that they aren't the real thing (right, pa-atrick).
    If He creates the law, I think it's valid to ask why did. He set it up so that His Son had to Atone. The law, as He made it is two-tiered: If you die in your sins you are damned; if you die with past sins you are forgiven. So why is there any need for the Atonement? From my experience (and I think this is what @estradling75 was getting at), part of the mechanics of leaving your sins in the past requires it - that is, you cannot get gold from lead without transforming the very elements, and it seems like the Atonement is the catalyst that transforms telestial beings to celestial. The scriptures refer to this as sanctification. (this may also only be the rule in this order of creation). Admittedly, this hasn't gotten us very far, because that just leads to asking why was this order of creation designed to require the Atonement? The question is still unanswered (so much for logic).
    The general consensus on this board seems to be that God is not the law-giver, but rather the law-teacher. That is, the laws of progression already existed and He is mentoring us to make the most of them. If this is the case, then your obejection is, frankly, nonsense. Using @zil's gravity example, I could just as well ask, "What law requires that I fall off a cliff when I run over the edge? Natural Law that everyone is subject to? Then it seems that Natural Law would be that so long as I keep running and don't look down I won't fall. I don't understand how a Natural Law would require that I fall even if I'm unaware of the lack of solid earth under my feet." If eternal law requires payment, then it requires payment. As with all such laws, we accept it and use it to our advantage. This particular model fits in very well with what the scriptures describe as justification. Of course, this is also frustrating because there is no "why", it just is. Not only is the question unanswered, but it is also unanswerable.
    Of course, I return back to my opening paragraph. All this may just be gibberish. If the weighty "why" of the Atonement is to be answered, it is to be answered by God.
  22. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from LeSellers in Does morality require a god?   
    Hello pot, please meet kettle.
  23. Like
    Anddenex reacted to mordorbund in Historical accuracy of the BOM   
    The challenge with a non-historical Book of Mormon is that Joseph had the plates. 3 witnesses were shown the plates by an angel and had the voice of God testify it was true. 8 witnesses received a secular testimony with no angel or voice of God, but still leafed through the plates.
    Joseph made a claim that he translated the plates. God was very clever and backed up Joseph's account with additional secular and spiritual witnesses to appeal to both camps.
    So perhaps there were plates but Joseph made up the translation - but then we have the angel showing the plates and the voice of God confirming its truth. So I'm compelled to turn to the supernatural to explain it. God or the devil. If the devil, then the book is not what it purports to be (another testimony of Christ) and I have no problems with it being non-historical.
    If it is from God though, then we have God creating a set of plates to convince 12 people that this is the real deal. That's highly suspect. Or the plates were real enough, but Mormon and Moroni made up a great story and God then preserved the plates with the false narrative and gave power to Joseph to translate it. My credulity is straining.
    I feel compelled to accept the book for what it claims to be - a record of a fallen civilization that historically existed, as compiled by prophets.
  24. Like
    Anddenex reacted to Traveler in Historical accuracy of the BOM   
    Is the Book of Mormon historical???? Compared to what?  There is no ancient text, no ancient artifacts, absolutely nothing other than the Book of Mormon that is specifically identified as a remint of the Nephite civilization.  Even the geography (except for places described prior to leaving the Arabian Peninsula are unknown.  Plus anything written prior to Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey is by definition – pre-historic or pre-history.  Note that the Book of Mormon begins in 600BC and parts (Ether) is almost 2,000 years prior to that. 
    The question is itself a gross misunderstanding of the term “historic”.  As a side note – all information in the Book of Mormon that references places on the Arabian peninsula (including at least 100 references to places unknown in any Western Civilization – American continent) at the time of Joseph Smith – are 100% accurate and rivals even current publications.
     
    The Traveler
  25. Like
    Anddenex reacted to rpframe in Does morality require a god?   
    A purely self-serving moral perspective does not necessarily even care about the survival of one's species.