Anddenex

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  1. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from jerome1232 in Will polygamy be re-instituted after plagues of the last days wipe out a lot of the earth's population?   
    Zarahemla, as LeSellers had mentioned, legally and lawfully wed is in the frame of reference from God's view. As polygamy was a commandment/counsel from the Lord, those who practiced polygamy were indeed legally and lawfully wedded to each other.
    Doctrine and Covenants 132: 35, "Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it." The early church members were not under condemnation, as the Lord commanded it. I would recommend that you read verses 60-62, same section, regarding temple covenant and adultery. 
  2. Like
    Anddenex reacted to NeedleinA in Finally told my wife, I cheated, lied and I'm leaving. Help!   
    While teaching D&C as the GD Instructor, I could just tell that half the crowd were (sorry to say) mindless zombies sometimes. One day I asked everyone to look up D&C Section 142:14 (or something like that, non-existent ). Everyone started flipping through their scriptures. A couple of them raised their hands for help to further locate it. Took several minutes for them to realize it was a joke. I apparently stunk as a GD Instructor.
     
  3. Like
    Anddenex reacted to NeedleinA in Finally told my wife, I cheated, lied and I'm leaving. Help!   
    A lot of this has been a long time coming, but I'm slightly relieved to have this all off my chest finally. Well for some of you this may come as a shock, for others perhaps not. After almost 2 decades of marriage, I felt it was finally time to come clean, so please don't judge me yet, since only God can judge. Here goes... yesterday, I told my wife...
    1. While in my younger years while playing a really hard to beat Nintendo game called "Contra", I would often use a "cheat code" to get more lives, UP, UP, DOWN, DOWN, LEFT, RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT, B, A, START
    2. I know that at some point I "lied" to one of friends and led him to believe that I was "just that good" at the game.
    3. After I told my wife my childhood flaw, I gave her a kiss and told her "I'm leaving" to work now, to have a great day and would see her that night.
    4. She reminded me I was in charge of dinner. "Help!", any suggestions on a good lasagna recipe??

    On a serious note: Over many years of hearing criticisms of the Church or Gospel, it never ceases to amaze me how much of the information that is out there is "misleading". While the title of my post, "Finally told my wife, I cheated, lied and I'm leaving. Help!" is accurate, taken out of context it sure makes for a sensational headline, that can invoke a completely unwarranted response. I have no problem addressing concerns about honest factual truth, but I am often saddened by the number of people who only see headlines and don't read any further to get any context. This is a common method in which critics try to attack the church & gospel, using a narrative of partial/half truths.   
    I have seen these sensational headlines pull people away from their testimonies and also scare investigators away. So how do you personally combat such tactics and strategies in your own lives? 
  4. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from LeSellers in Will polygamy be re-instituted after plagues of the last days wipe out a lot of the earth's population?   
    Zarahemla, as LeSellers had mentioned, legally and lawfully wed is in the frame of reference from God's view. As polygamy was a commandment/counsel from the Lord, those who practiced polygamy were indeed legally and lawfully wedded to each other.
    Doctrine and Covenants 132: 35, "Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it." The early church members were not under condemnation, as the Lord commanded it. I would recommend that you read verses 60-62, same section, regarding temple covenant and adultery. 
  5. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from NeedleinA in Will polygamy be re-instituted after plagues of the last days wipe out a lot of the earth's population?   
    Zarahemla, as LeSellers had mentioned, legally and lawfully wed is in the frame of reference from God's view. As polygamy was a commandment/counsel from the Lord, those who practiced polygamy were indeed legally and lawfully wedded to each other.
    Doctrine and Covenants 132: 35, "Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it." The early church members were not under condemnation, as the Lord commanded it. I would recommend that you read verses 60-62, same section, regarding temple covenant and adultery. 
  6. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from zil in Apostasy and prophets   
    Continued...Joseph Smith made other mistakes by which he was commanded to repent; however, as pertaining to things which are inspired, actions which stem from revelation from God, no, these are not mistakes. The world, from their frame of reference, may entice others to believe they are/were mistakes; however, even a just God will give unto his children what they desire even if it is wrong, or not the best way. In light of this, the mistake is not with God, nor with his prophets, but with the sons and daughters of God who desired things they should not have (e.g. The children of Israel desiring a king although the prophet tried very hard to dissuade them from such a choice). In light of this, I am more concerned with the sons and daughters of God desiring things they should not, and the Lord (through his servants the prophets) saying, "Have according to your desire," -- than the prophets and their inspiration and moving the Church according to God's will.
    The words we use to describe historic/modern circumstances the Church endured will help in understanding the gospel a bit better (and my words are not as good as others who write here on LDS.net). The word "evolved" is probably not the best way to describe the changes the Church made, and will change today, and what the Church will change tomorrow. Polygamy for example, has been practiced throughout the history of men, and was practiced by the patriarchs of old, and by other members who followed the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The desire for statehood is not the main reason for the Church denouncing polygamy. Wilford Woodruff was shown exactly what the US would do, the government, if the Church did not stop. Statehood, was a minor reason. 
    As to polygamy seen as socially acceptable, "In many parts of the world, polygamy was socially acceptable and legally permissible. But in the United States, most people thought that the practice was morally wrong. These objections led to legislative efforts to end polygamy. Beginning in 1862, the U.S. government passed a series of laws designed to force Latter-day Saints to relinquish plural marriage...."
    "President Woodruff saw that the Church’s temples and its ordinances were now at risk. Burdened by this threat, he prayed intensely over the matter. “The Lord showed me by vision and revelation,” he later said, “exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice,” referring to plural marriage. “All the temples [would] go out of our hands.” God “has told me exactly what to do, and what the result would be if we did not do it.”
    Under this type of social pressure, corrupt (our nation, our government is all about not discriminating -- unless it is LDS) government legislation, in the face of religious freedom (which is often ignored by critics) through revelation the Church moved forward. The same with black's and the priesthood. Yes, Joseph Smith ordained black members, and for some reason this practiced was halted during Brigham Young. The Church has provided more information here. 
    NOT CHURCH DOCTRINE OR EVEN TAUGHT -- My personal thoughts, I whole heartedly believe that this would not have been the case if Joseph Smith was not murdered. As to my knowledge, it appears, some prophets were able to move policies forward where others did not -- my personal thoughts though (yes, we as members can have our personal thoughts while remaining faithful members  ). 
    No current members rationalize or want to go back to those policies -- Not true. There are many members who anticipate the Church reinstating the practice of polygamy (excluding 99.99999% of women). Black and the priesthood, yes I don't think any faithful member would like this returned; however, I would not be surprised if there are some members who still believe this revelation was a mistake.
    We know polygamy has been practiced and accepted by the Church, and by God. Polygamy was instituted by God and as provided was removed, via revelation, by God. As pertaining to Black's and the priesthood, from what we have in record, we do not have the revelation which proceeded such; highlighting, why the Lord has told the Church and members to keep good record/journals, otherwise through word of mouth important aspects are lost. We don't know. 
    In each case, though it wasn't until God revealed it should be done. From a world view, sure this is seen as "racist"; however, is God racist? No. Does God, the Father of all of us (by which we owe our existence) have the right to punish/discipline his children, or a nation?  Yes, he does. If God were to say, due to the nations wickedness (or even some order that God is able to see that we cannot (Levites were the only ones with certain priesthood privileges), that a certain continent of his sons would not be able to hold the priesthood until further notice? Yes, he does. Is his action racist? No, it is not. Yet, the world will decry discrimination. Sure, we live in a world when privileges (as with the Levites) are given to some, and not to another the world decries "discrimination" and that is not good. The Church, God, is wrong!!!!!
    As for me, this is Christ's gospel. This is his Church that holds all the necessary ordinances and teachings for us to be exalted and to inherit all the Father hath. The Church is moving forward, people can say what they want to say, when I stand before God a decision that was made before I was born, which ended when I was 2 years old, isn't going to be something I will be judged for. God will judge my personal actions now, and how I respond to his servants, and the oath and covenant I have made in obtaining his priesthood.
    I guess my general point is, is it possible that there has been apostasy since the Restoration -- Yes, the Church has, but it is better to say, the Church has not but we as a people have and thus have not received the greater blessings. The Church instituted the United Order, an aspect of Zion. The members (collectively) rejected it. Anytime we reject "truth" -- reject the greater path (so to speak) -- we experience a state of apostasy. What are other evidences? Polygamy? Could be, but not in the practice as detailed by the Church, but in the practice by those who practiced such, or simply the fact that we did not have the faith collectively that polygamy eventually was removed. Blacks and the priesthood? No, this wouldn't be a state of apostasy in the least. Some may have a different opinion on the matter though. Apostasy is when we reject truth. If the Church rejects the will of God, then the Church is indeed in apostasy. The Church since the restoration has never been such, the people of the Church -- yes indeed we have -- unfortunately.
    As to the Holy Ghost, refer back to this post. This is as good of an answer as I would give.
    Thank you and I appreciate your method of communication also, and I haven't found you judgmental, but soul searching. In light of the last statement, we then disagree; although, I am fine with individuals believing it is presumptuous. My experience has taught me, often it is our "real intent" that inhibits God's answer. Is this yours, in light of that, yes, my statement could appear (or be) presumptuous as I am making a judgement (so to speak) according to a short few paragraphs of your 8-9 years of soul searching, and I understand that.
    Elder David A. Bednar has three excellent books in reference to our search to become like our Father in heaven. If you like reading, I would recommend this books (three books: "Increase in Learning", "Act in Doctrine", "Power to Become"). One aspect he highlights is that often our struggles is not with God, but our misunderstanding of truths taught. God does expect obedience because he knows the path which leads to eternal life and paths which lead to damnation (a lack of progression). Not much different than a man standing at the edge of a precipice saying, "The Bridge is this way," while watching those ignoring his counsel and who then end up going over the precipice. The more I learn the more I understand the purpose behind his commandments. 
    God did not put any trauma in the world, through Adam and Eve (human decision) trauma entered into existence. God indeed does allow free will, how else would we become like a perfect intelligent being if we could not act for ourselves? The reason trauma exists (excluding nature, as God honors the laws of nature of this fallen world) is because man chooses to disobey rather than obey, which causes the Lord to weep. Remove our intelligence and what are we? The world would be perfect if all of God's children, sons and daughters, honored his commandments since Adam. There would be no murder. There would be no rape. There would be no adultery. There would be no fornication. There would be no theft. There would be no envy. All these things exist because humans have decided, according to their own free will, to have them exist. Yes, if only we as God's children honored his expectation. Am I wrong to expect my children to go to school, receive a higher education, and hopefully succeed more in this life? Yet, despite my expectation, my call for obedience as their father, my children will still have their moral agency to honor or reject my will. God knows the path. He stands at the helm and bids we follow. It is our choice, and it isn't God's fault if one of his children decides to tie up his brother to a pole. No, it is the individual's fault who thought in his heart to do such, and then act upon it. 
    God doesn't need our approval, not in the least, those of us who come to recognize his truth will continually seek his approval, not spiteful in the least. The truths are universal and the joys of these truths are for everyone. As we are able to accept truth, God gives us more, as we reject truth, God refrains from giving more. That isn't deeper for LDS, that is LDS doctrine. The joys are universal, and are received through honoring predicated laws, and is given line upon line. The only people we have to blame, is ourselves if we do not receive all the Father hath. What it would have been to live among the people of Enoch? What it would have been to be among sons and daughters who rejected the ideologies of man, and received only the knowledge from God? What would it have been like to live among a people where rape, murder, theft, class, and many other aspects of this world did not exist due to the personal decisions of the people of that city? The same can be for us, sadly, collectively we are not choosing such, and only in God's light will this be achieved.
  7. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from SpiritDragon in It looks like we need to outlaw trucks   
    Another sad day in human history, and the reality that when an individual decides to harm another human they will use what methods are available.
  8. Like
    Anddenex reacted to zil in Will polygamy be re-instituted after plagues of the last days wipe out a lot of the earth's population?   
    That's an interesting thought.  I tend to think slightly opposite - that things will be given to us, and those who aren't faithful will see these things as onerous (or as unreasonable, or hateful, or similar) and will leave the church over them.  Greater light and knowledge must, by definition, include expectation to live a higher law, and if you're not ready for it, that will seem like punishment rather than blessing...  Now I need to ponder this idea more.
  9. Like
    Anddenex reacted to Veritas in Apostasy and prophets   
    I Very much appreciate that you took so much time to offer a conserved reply. A few points:
     
    Whil I understand your distinction about academic versus spiritual interest, I'm not sure I agree with the premise. I'm not taking it personally or anything, but I am steadfastly praying and trying to make changes and reading scripture (even though I hav a hard time following it). I'm trying to submit and be obedient, as far as I know how, and I still am failing to receive the spirit. it seems a little presumptuous and very convenient to say that the reason someone doesn't receive insights or feelings of the church being true or the BoM authentic is because they don't have "real intent" in seeking God. 
    I guess one issue I've had with any religion is the idea that a supposedly caring, loving God would expect obedience and punish those who aren't, when the same God puts so much trauma in the world and allows free will. It seems awfully spiteful, and why would God need approval from such lesser creatures? Shouldn't the truth and joys be universal? Anyway, I know that goes far deeper than LDS specifically, it's just one issue I've grappled with. 
    As you point out, we are all blindly obedient from time to time. Most of us are inherently obedient to moral principles, like not killing, stealing, lying, etc. 
     
    i understand and your point about speaking as a man versus speaking in an official capacity for the church. But that doesn't answer my questions or concerns about oscillating reservation. Polygamy was god's plan for years before it wasn't and is now dealt with very harshly. Ditto with blacks in the priesthood. There are other examples, to various degrees.  I'm not looking to litigate history, but I'm confused how such obedience can be expected of men delivering god's message when that message seems to waver when social circumstances require it. I don't think God is ambivalent or making mistakes, so isn't it possible that those interpreting the message are making mistakes? I guess that goes back to the fundamental concerns of my post. 
  10. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from NeedleinA in Apostasy and prophets   
    Investigating for 8-9 years, that is a good time investigating the Church. Once you determine your level of interest (academic or spiritual) then an answer will eventually come. If purely academic, don't expect the Lord to reveal anything, as the interest in knowing isn't with real intent. The interest may be sincere, but doesn't have real intent. God will not provide us with further knowledge if we have no desire to live the knowledge he gives. This scripture I have come to love because of the truth on how our Father will reveal truth, or communicate with us (Abraham 1: 2). Abraham desired knowledge, but in order to gain knowledge he recognize obedience was necessary. He desired further knowledge and recognized he wanted to follow righteousness even more. The concept of being skeptical isn't a bad thing, as long as our desire to know truth, when revealed is sincere and with real intent. Many are skeptics and when truth is revealed they remain skeptical.
     
    The notion of blind obedience is intriguing in and of itself. At some point in time, we all practiced "blind" obedience; however, the notion is better said, "It is not that we are blind, no indeed, we trust." Trust is offered through experience, or recognizing an individual knows more than you. A child offers this blind obedience, "trust," when parents say do not run out into the street and the child obeys solely out of -- "Well, mom and dad said so." It is not until they are older that they recognize the "why" in the counsel/command.
    My obedience isn't blind, as my obedience stems from personal experience and personal witness (multiple witnesses) that their is a God. He is our Father. He has servants, and reveals truth through his servants such that there is wisdom and order. As a Father I will tell one of my children to tell their sibling something I said to do. The sibling receiving the order (who did not hear it from me), has a choice: 1) Accept the command giving by the sibling who received it from their father 2) Ignore/reject the command thinking they know of themsevles. Thus obedience is interwoven heavily with the attribute of "trust." The child receiving the command from the father through the sibling obeys because they trust that the counsel did indeed come from the father, which incorporates the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood (Doctrine and Covenants 84: 33-40).
    Some members are not studied, but they have received witness, while others are studied and have received witness. The irony, even the studied will have to say at times, "The Prophet has spoken, and that is enough for me." Why is it enough, because of the multiple witnesses that God is leading his children through his prophets. I accept this just as I accept when my own children say, "I don't know, save it be my dad said not to," to their friends. And that is OK. If you think this is circular logic, no one will convince you otherwise.
     
    Although, possibly splitting hairs, The Church wasn't founded upon the principle of apostasy. The Church was founded upon principles of righteousness through patriarchs/prophets as given authority from God (as with Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Peter, etc...). The Church, as it stands now, was restored through the prophet Joseph Smith. We accept the idea that the founding Church experienced a full apostasy, the keys of the priesthood were removed from men, and once again God used divine authority to restore his Church and restore principles which have been lost.
    The Church, even Joseph Smith, has never considered (nor taught) that they are anything else than man. We already know Joseph made a mistake by which he was chastened for (116 pages of lost manuscript). When a prophet is speaking as a prophet, they are always inspired from God, otherwise it would not be inspiration. When a prophet is speaking as a man, he can have his own thoughts, his own ideas, he can share those ideas, etc... To be honest, I don't understand why this is difficult to understand, but it appears to be difficult for some.
    To be Edited....as don't have time now to complete.
     
  11. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from Just_A_Guy in Will polygamy be re-instituted after plagues of the last days wipe out a lot of the earth's population?   
    Polygamy is a practice that can be instituted or removed at any given time. When removed, if the consequence is excommunication then so the consequence is. If instituted again, then it is practiced.
  12. Like
    Anddenex reacted to LeSellers in Why do you think God and Jesus have long hair and beards?   
    The standard of clean shaving started in the 1920s, following the return of USAan doughboys from France.
    Prior to that period, most men had beards or mustaches, or sideburns (named for Ambrose Burnsides, federal Civil War general, whose sideburns were phenomenal). But the Roman army was clean shaven because a beard gave the enemy a handhold he could exploit: grab and pull. The invention of gunpowder and firearms made shaving unnecessary, so for the next three or four centuries beards were acceptable for soldiers. The British army even made mustaches mandatory for officers.
    On April 22, 1915, the Germans attacked French, Canadian and Algerian troops with chlorine gas. From that time forward, soldiers were clean shaven so their field protective masks would seal and allow them to live.
    The soldiers came home to cheering crowds and adoring women. They were heroes. And David O. McKay saw them and admired them — he and thousands of other Saints. And it stayed the same for a half century: men were clean-shaven because it was cool.
    Then came Vietnam, and the protests; and one form of rebellion was the beard and long hair.
    Rebellion is the original sin. Satan rebelled. We are not a rebellious people. So, with David O. McKay and his beardless chin from WWI until today with your bishop and his beardless chin, we demonstrate our obedience to even the mundane.
    Lehi
    God didn't rebel against His government. He can have any beard He chooses. LS
  13. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from Edspringer in Will polygamy be re-instituted after plagues of the last days wipe out a lot of the earth's population?   
    Polygamy is a practice that can be instituted or removed at any given time. When removed, if the consequence is excommunication then so the consequence is. If instituted again, then it is practiced.
  14. Like
    Anddenex reacted to NeedleinA in Will polygamy be re-instituted after plagues of the last days wipe out a lot of the earth's population?   
    Maybe a 1 in a 1,000,000 chance of it happening in our lifetime. So...there is a distinct possibility that your father might be correct.
     
  15. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from zil in Apostasy and prophets   
    Investigating for 8-9 years, that is a good time investigating the Church. Once you determine your level of interest (academic or spiritual) then an answer will eventually come. If purely academic, don't expect the Lord to reveal anything, as the interest in knowing isn't with real intent. The interest may be sincere, but doesn't have real intent. God will not provide us with further knowledge if we have no desire to live the knowledge he gives. This scripture I have come to love because of the truth on how our Father will reveal truth, or communicate with us (Abraham 1: 2). Abraham desired knowledge, but in order to gain knowledge he recognize obedience was necessary. He desired further knowledge and recognized he wanted to follow righteousness even more. The concept of being skeptical isn't a bad thing, as long as our desire to know truth, when revealed is sincere and with real intent. Many are skeptics and when truth is revealed they remain skeptical.
     
    The notion of blind obedience is intriguing in and of itself. At some point in time, we all practiced "blind" obedience; however, the notion is better said, "It is not that we are blind, no indeed, we trust." Trust is offered through experience, or recognizing an individual knows more than you. A child offers this blind obedience, "trust," when parents say do not run out into the street and the child obeys solely out of -- "Well, mom and dad said so." It is not until they are older that they recognize the "why" in the counsel/command.
    My obedience isn't blind, as my obedience stems from personal experience and personal witness (multiple witnesses) that their is a God. He is our Father. He has servants, and reveals truth through his servants such that there is wisdom and order. As a Father I will tell one of my children to tell their sibling something I said to do. The sibling receiving the order (who did not hear it from me), has a choice: 1) Accept the command giving by the sibling who received it from their father 2) Ignore/reject the command thinking they know of themsevles. Thus obedience is interwoven heavily with the attribute of "trust." The child receiving the command from the father through the sibling obeys because they trust that the counsel did indeed come from the father, which incorporates the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood (Doctrine and Covenants 84: 33-40).
    Some members are not studied, but they have received witness, while others are studied and have received witness. The irony, even the studied will have to say at times, "The Prophet has spoken, and that is enough for me." Why is it enough, because of the multiple witnesses that God is leading his children through his prophets. I accept this just as I accept when my own children say, "I don't know, save it be my dad said not to," to their friends. And that is OK. If you think this is circular logic, no one will convince you otherwise.
     
    Although, possibly splitting hairs, The Church wasn't founded upon the principle of apostasy. The Church was founded upon principles of righteousness through patriarchs/prophets as given authority from God (as with Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Peter, etc...). The Church, as it stands now, was restored through the prophet Joseph Smith. We accept the idea that the founding Church experienced a full apostasy, the keys of the priesthood were removed from men, and once again God used divine authority to restore his Church and restore principles which have been lost.
    The Church, even Joseph Smith, has never considered (nor taught) that they are anything else than man. We already know Joseph made a mistake by which he was chastened for (116 pages of lost manuscript). When a prophet is speaking as a prophet, they are always inspired from God, otherwise it would not be inspiration. When a prophet is speaking as a man, he can have his own thoughts, his own ideas, he can share those ideas, etc... To be honest, I don't understand why this is difficult to understand, but it appears to be difficult for some.
    To be Edited....as don't have time now to complete.
     
  16. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from NeedleinA in For the Ladies, Who would you marry?   
    He forgot to mention, this guy contracted multiple STDs -- just saying
  17. Like
    Anddenex reacted to estradling75 in Apostasy and prophets   
    I am going to start with your last question first because it feeds into the the other questions.
    Part of the confusion stems from us not being clear on our terminology.  We have the "Influence" of the Holy Ghost (or Light of Christ) and the "Gift of" the Holy Ghost.  Everyone is entitled to feel the Influence of the Holy Ghost.  It comes and goes based on a variety of factors... including faithfulness... willingness to obey... and the will of God.  It was through the Influence of the Holy Ghost that Joseph Smith was prompted to pray and receive the First Vision...  It it through the Influence of the Holy Ghost that everyone who has ever converted started on the path and gained a testimony...  I would say that it is the Influence of the Holy Ghost that kept you circling about Mormonism... while other factors are what are pulling you away.
    Now for the Gift of the Holy Ghost...   The goal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost is the constant companionship of it...  That it stops coming and going but stays.  However this only happens when we aren't acting contrary to the commandments and will of God.  Thus when hands are placed on our head and the priesthood holder pronounces  "We say unto you Receive the Holy Ghost"  It is in many ways a command for us to get and keep our lives in order so that we can enjoy the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost which God in returns, promises us if we do.
    Of course each individual member can then be at a different state of getting that promised blessing.
    Now lets talk about church authority...  In many ways our Salvation and Exaltation is a intensely personal thing between us and God.  Our faith in God, our willingness to obey, our sacrifices. etc...    But at the same time God commandments require us to interact with other people... Love your neighbor as yourself, forgive persecutors, help the poor and needy,  Receive ordinances form Gods authorized servants, and gather together support and strength each other.
    Once you start involving others for ordinances and gathering... Well that effort needs to be organized, and since the Lord's house is a house of order he has organized it.  He organizes through his priesthood.   
    Now these priesthood holders are mortal men with weakness and agency like all the rest of is, but they are also Gods anointed... So how do we balance this?  The Doctrine and Covenants teaches us this...  From the instance of Hyrum Page God teaches us that he will have only one man appointed to receive revelation for the whole Church, at the time it was Joseph Smith.  And that if Joseph Smith should fall that God would have Joseph Smith appoint another to replace himself and then God would deal with him.  We see this repeated in the Manifesto that stopped polygamy and we can see it play out in a few stories in the Old Testament.
    Now to connect the dots...The Holy Ghost can teach you that the Book of Mormon is true...  The Holy Ghost can teach you that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God...  The Holy Ghost can teach you that we have modern day prophets and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is lead by them...  What you do with that is up to you.
    But don't confuse the idea of authority and priesthood with requirement for always flawless and perfect actions... because that has never been the way God works.
     
     
     
  18. Like
    Anddenex reacted to zil in Apostasy and prophets   
    Of course, the technical problem is that I'm in charge of paperwork, so my eviction notice may never actually get delivered...
  19. Like
    Anddenex reacted to zil in Apostasy and prophets   
    Speak for yourself, heathen!
  20. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from nuclearfuels in Will polygamy be re-instituted after plagues of the last days wipe out a lot of the earth's population?   
    This part of this quote is intriguing as it was given in 1881, and then 9 years later the Church abandoned (at that moment and currently) polygamy. In light of polygamy, Mormons were forced to follow the ways of men, rather than the ways of God.
    Polygamy, I can't see being accepted as a nation by law, except through the viewpoint of religious freedom. We live in a time where we will receive a "restoration" of all things, which includes polygamy. People can argue that it has already been restored and taken away, or people can argue that polygamy existed previously, accepted by the Lord, and will one day be commanded again. As to reasons why, I haven't personally experienced any spiritual witness to agree with your father, or the notion that plagues will result in a declaration to live it once again; however, a plague which would cost human lives...definitely could be a result for the need.
    As the nation continues to increase in wickedness, we (the world) are already in a state of wickedness where the Lord could come any day now, and yet we still wait. Polygamy could definitely be restored in our lifetime. This may be a reason for greater righteousness, as honorable priesthood holders are able to bear more children with multiple wives.
    The reality...nothing has been revealed, but if we are honorable priesthood holders we will move forward in righteousness in doing as the Lord commands, or as with other generations we will continue to kick against the pricks, mock the prophets, and leave the Church -- because we know better than the Lord's annointed. I simply have faith and hope, with whatever direction the Lord moves his prophets, seers, and revelators toward I will move forward with them, as I already have witness they are lead by God, as this is his Church.
  21. Like
    Anddenex reacted to tesuji in Becoming a Zion People   
    I absolutely agree.
    Another area is money in general. The US in general is a super rich country, compared to most of the world. We are happy to buy new cars, big houses, etc. for ourselves. But how much of that do we really need? Especially when we are surrounded by perishing and destitute people who we could really bless if we shared our prosperity more. (Maybe not literally surrounded - that's part of the problem, that we more and move live in homogeneous communities isolated from people who are not of the same prosperity level that we are at.)
     
  22. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from tesuji in Becoming a Zion People   
    The aspect of becoming a Zion people has been a topic of interest, especially while I served in leadership positions in the Church. When the Church was first established within a couple years The United Order was introduced. Joseph Smith sought diligently to help the people to reach this pinnacle of discipleship. We know it failed, and it failed for the same reasons we are failing today. A notion I ponder, the Lord tried to institute his order within 2 years and it going on 200 years since then and the Lord has not yet again instructed, via his prophets, to move forward.
    The Pure in Heart: We are failing (collectively), while individually there are many members who are succeeding. Clearly, there are traditions (false doctrines) which spread among the Saints that inhibit us from becoming "one heart, one mind." One of which, members who forget, although God wants us all to be prophets, there is only ONE seer who speaks for God. Far too many members think they are a seer, as they reject counsel from the Lord's servant (privately and publicly). Example, look at how many of our brothers and sisters responding negatively (publicly on social outlets), to recent decisions made by a united brethren of the Lord's anointed.
    Church and Membership: We are growing, not as rapidly as we could. We also know, the Lord clears in the inner vessel before moving toward the outer vessel, which has me to believe there is still yet a cleansing and as the Church continues to progress (in light of this natural world, the natural man) we will see this cleansing. As a Church membership we enjoy visiting more than ministering and as we come to understand "ministering" the Church will continue to grow. In some aspects, we fear man more than God which is why we still "visit" rather than "minister."
    The United Order: Why haven't we been instructed to establish this again, and yet the Church was instructed to build while still in its infancy during the restoration? My personal thoughts, our personal desire in paying a generous fast offering is evidence of our personal belief in the United Order. Your example is a great example of decisions that show some understand.
    The Temple: We all know it is important, but how often do we go? We will make time for sports. We will make time, and sacrifice of money, for vacations. What sacrifices are we making for the temple? I think in some degrees we are failing and in others we are succeeding as temples are continually being built. I remember a few years ago now, an anti-Mormon said, "The Church is bleeding, and soon the Church will not be building anymore temples. He said in 10 years, no temple will be built, and we will see a decline in temples being built." I took him up on the challenge, and unfortunately, I am not able to reach out to him anymore. At that time there were only 126 temples. We now have 150 or more and more being built. The natural man doesn't know what he is talking about. His prophecy was in that many years we may see a couple more temples, but that is it. Yep, just a couple
    Home: As priesthood brethren I believe we are failing. We have far too many homes where the husband, priesthood leader, does not lead out in prayer, scripture study, and other important aspects of what it means to preside in the home. Fathers are providing, but not presiding. The mother, wife, is leading out encouraging her husband to do what he has been called to do, and many are just to happy to let the wife lead. When the statement can no longer be said, "women are more righteous than man," I think we will be in a better spot because righteousness is a matter of choice, not fate. How many homes have FHE (consistently)? How many church members believe, "Well, I take my children to church," and that is it? We have far to much Sunday worship, and then we forget about the Lord during the week.
    Tradition: We are far to steeped in tradition that inhibits our progression toward Zion, and yet the Church is moving forward and hopefully we all choose to keep up. This means we are living both the spirit and letter, not the well provided definition of the spirit that is prominent today through tradition but actually living by the spirit as understanding that living the spirit of the law is living the letter in the right spirit, not some form of disobedience, but a higher obedience.
     
  23. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from tesuji in Is God still in the lives of atheists even though they have rejected Him?   
    The simple answer is "yes" God blesses all of his children as the rain falls on the just and the unjust. The sun shines on the just and the unjust. All we have are blessings from God, whether a man/woman rejects deity doesn't matter. He blesses them, which is also why in the end all will exclaim "They ways are just" even atheists, because they will then see his hand throughout their lives, where he blessed them, where he sought after them, and still they rejected him.
    An increase of intelligence is a gift from God. If an atheist has a child, that child is a gift from God. Whether or not, they claim it, reject it, matters very little. He blesses them within the bounds of predicated laws as already mentioned, and what we sow we reap, and sometimes we sow and don't reap.
  24. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from carlimac in Is God still in the lives of atheists even though they have rejected Him?   
    The simple answer is "yes" God blesses all of his children as the rain falls on the just and the unjust. The sun shines on the just and the unjust. All we have are blessings from God, whether a man/woman rejects deity doesn't matter. He blesses them, which is also why in the end all will exclaim "They ways are just" even atheists, because they will then see his hand throughout their lives, where he blessed them, where he sought after them, and still they rejected him.
    An increase of intelligence is a gift from God. If an atheist has a child, that child is a gift from God. Whether or not, they claim it, reject it, matters very little. He blesses them within the bounds of predicated laws as already mentioned, and what we sow we reap, and sometimes we sow and don't reap.
  25. Like
    Anddenex got a reaction from zil in Becoming a Zion People   
    The aspect of becoming a Zion people has been a topic of interest, especially while I served in leadership positions in the Church. When the Church was first established within a couple years The United Order was introduced. Joseph Smith sought diligently to help the people to reach this pinnacle of discipleship. We know it failed, and it failed for the same reasons we are failing today. A notion I ponder, the Lord tried to institute his order within 2 years and it going on 200 years since then and the Lord has not yet again instructed, via his prophets, to move forward.
    The Pure in Heart: We are failing (collectively), while individually there are many members who are succeeding. Clearly, there are traditions (false doctrines) which spread among the Saints that inhibit us from becoming "one heart, one mind." One of which, members who forget, although God wants us all to be prophets, there is only ONE seer who speaks for God. Far too many members think they are a seer, as they reject counsel from the Lord's servant (privately and publicly). Example, look at how many of our brothers and sisters responding negatively (publicly on social outlets), to recent decisions made by a united brethren of the Lord's anointed.
    Church and Membership: We are growing, not as rapidly as we could. We also know, the Lord clears in the inner vessel before moving toward the outer vessel, which has me to believe there is still yet a cleansing and as the Church continues to progress (in light of this natural world, the natural man) we will see this cleansing. As a Church membership we enjoy visiting more than ministering and as we come to understand "ministering" the Church will continue to grow. In some aspects, we fear man more than God which is why we still "visit" rather than "minister."
    The United Order: Why haven't we been instructed to establish this again, and yet the Church was instructed to build while still in its infancy during the restoration? My personal thoughts, our personal desire in paying a generous fast offering is evidence of our personal belief in the United Order. Your example is a great example of decisions that show some understand.
    The Temple: We all know it is important, but how often do we go? We will make time for sports. We will make time, and sacrifice of money, for vacations. What sacrifices are we making for the temple? I think in some degrees we are failing and in others we are succeeding as temples are continually being built. I remember a few years ago now, an anti-Mormon said, "The Church is bleeding, and soon the Church will not be building anymore temples. He said in 10 years, no temple will be built, and we will see a decline in temples being built." I took him up on the challenge, and unfortunately, I am not able to reach out to him anymore. At that time there were only 126 temples. We now have 150 or more and more being built. The natural man doesn't know what he is talking about. His prophecy was in that many years we may see a couple more temples, but that is it. Yep, just a couple
    Home: As priesthood brethren I believe we are failing. We have far too many homes where the husband, priesthood leader, does not lead out in prayer, scripture study, and other important aspects of what it means to preside in the home. Fathers are providing, but not presiding. The mother, wife, is leading out encouraging her husband to do what he has been called to do, and many are just to happy to let the wife lead. When the statement can no longer be said, "women are more righteous than man," I think we will be in a better spot because righteousness is a matter of choice, not fate. How many homes have FHE (consistently)? How many church members believe, "Well, I take my children to church," and that is it? We have far to much Sunday worship, and then we forget about the Lord during the week.
    Tradition: We are far to steeped in tradition that inhibits our progression toward Zion, and yet the Church is moving forward and hopefully we all choose to keep up. This means we are living both the spirit and letter, not the well provided definition of the spirit that is prominent today through tradition but actually living by the spirit as understanding that living the spirit of the law is living the letter in the right spirit, not some form of disobedience, but a higher obedience.