Anddenex

D&C 64:9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. 10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.
Greater than what? Greater than any sin someone may have committed against us? I can think of some sins that to me are worse than withholding forgiveness. Of course any sin left unrepented of will have a damning influence upon us and leaves us "condemned before the Lord", but in the hierarchy of sins I would say there are some far worse. So how do we interpret that statement?

Rememeber that the title of Elder Bednar's talk is "In the Path of their Duty."
The primary thrust of his speech was to emphasize how important every member of the Church is regardless of what calling we have.  Sometimes, there is this idea that some people have a more "prestigious" calling.  He was trying to say how every single calling is important.  And he just wanted to take a moment to praise those individuals who have what some might consider a less glamorous calling, but who are nevertheless serving with their might.
I brought up an elderly brother who just moved into the ward a couple of months ago.  And not a lot of people know who he is yet.  But he comes to help clean the church every time it is his rotation.  He gives rides to church to some individuals who cannot otherwise make it on their own.  He participates in setting up and cleaning up all the activities.  And my soul loves him.
He is "no less serviceable" than the bishop or EQ pres or RS pres.  He's serving the Lord with all his might.

It was in the first couple of paragraphs, while he was summarising President Clarks' remarks. It was just a thought that came to me. 

This is the cancer infecting the Church.

I keep returning to the concept of the different types of doctrine.  
Core or Eternal
Supportive
Policy
Esoteric
Our testimonies should be based upon core and eternal doctrines.  Every GC talk dwells on core and supportive doctrine.
What we see in these “Protestant Mormons” is that they don’t have a testimony based on core doctrine. They ignore core and supportive doctrine and are critical of policy and esoteric doctrine.
The adversary is insidious.  He loves misdirection.
My testimony is based upon Jesus Christ.  Not a statement about COVID vaccines.
Policy changes.  Esoteric doctrine is fun but cannot grant salvation.  Esoteric doctrine can also lead to dark nebulous paths.  
Jacob 6:8, 12 O be wise; what can I say more?

Martin Luther may not have wanted a schism.. but actions have consequences.
Public displays are going to provoke public reactions.
While we do not control how other may react, we need to be aware of our potential as influences.  So we do not get to entirely excuse ourselves by saying we do not control others.  
When we nail our complaints to the door (Or Post to social media) we do need to take responsibly for some very predictable reactions

This is interesting to compare to this phenomenon of "Protestant Mormons".  This sounds a whole lot like the CES letter.  Although I believe (of course) that Martin Luther's motivation was more well-founded sincere than the CES letter.
If you believe in apostolic authority, we can't demand answers as they did.  It wasn't just asking questions to help find faith when we don't understand some things.  It was a criticism of their authority.
We can certainly ask questions.  But they must be to explore what the answers might be.  This is a completely different attitude than demanding answers in such a public and accusatory manner.

Just a thought
4 O Lord, do not suffer that this people shall be destroyed by the sword; but O Lord, rather alet there be a bfamine in the land, to stir them up in remembrance of the Lord their God, and perhaps they will repent and turn unto thee.
This verse refers to a time when large numbers of Nephites were being killed in a war. Through the intervention of Nephi, the deaths from war came to an end, but deaths from famine commenced. It reminds me of 1918 when the deaths from war stopped but deaths from the Spanish flu commenced. 
 
 
 

This post reminds me of a recent Instagram post I scrolled into. The individual was a member of the Church who said, paraphrased, "I'm a member of the Church who stays in the Church and seeks to change it from within to be more inclusive."
This follows the thought provided, "We will see those who profess membership but secretly are plotting and trying to lead people not to follow the leadership that the Lord has set up to preside in this church."
I'm, very much, in agreement with the idea and concepts being shared. This is definitely happening in the Church today. I'm pretty sure someone posted here a while -- a while -- back sharing a video from some movie, episode, or podcast where the individual said, "I can do more damage to the Church by staying in the Church..."
President Nelson's quote regarding having the Spirit with us is the only that we will make it through these last days before Christ comes as strong followers/disciples of Jesus Christ. The purpose of the Spirit is to bear witness of truth, and to help us see things as they really are.
@MrShorty "Perhaps Goff is wrong and maybe the church will figure out how to keep people together in spite of such a divisive issue."
As to the following thought here, the Church already figured this out. The answer is Jesus Christ. If a person truly believes in Christ and His Church, the focus will be upon Christ and building up the Kingdom of God/Zion. Those who focus on this will be able to work together in peace and harmony -- despite their difference of thoughts and opinions (because these individuals will wait patiently on the Lord and how he moves His Church).
This notion extends both ways on the spectrum -- far right and far left. We have been counseled and taught to avoid any and all "religious hobbies." Religious hobbies is one of the easiest ways for the adversary to gain control and place into the heart of individuals to follow forbidden paths.
When any individual places any idea, any action, any decision above the Lord and His Church then they (the individual(s)) will choose to separate themselves from the Lord and His Church. The doctrine is very very clear on many things (the easiest one is marriage), and yet we have members who seek to blur the clarity, and place their thoughts, their decisions, their life choices above the Lord and His Church. This brings up the notion provided by Jacob in the Book of Mormon, "they despised the words of plainness." And we have that happening in our day -- words of plainness being despised by members of the Church such that they seek to change it and are angry with it.
 
 

We are in agreement, and this is also why I love the teaching in the Book of Mormon where we are counseled to be bold but not overbearing, and it is in some ways a fine line between the two.
True boldness keeps intact the core doctrine of agency. We know there is agency when (2 Nephi 2: 16) an individual is still able to "act for themselves" because they are able to be enticed by one (truth spoken in plainness or boldness) or the other (the opposite error).
To speak with plainness (which is often to be bold) is also a show of greater love. This is one witness to me that these individuals "love" Christ because they speak his truth in plainness of speech (boldness). They are willing, like Christ, to bear their crosses and to receive shame for his name. We know Christ's love is perfect. We know that when he spoke in plain terms (not in parables for a good reason) that some of his disciples were no longer disciples because it was too hard to hear. It cut too deep.

I was thinking about this the other day. Those general authorities who are most blunt about certain truths are the ones these individuals are most critical of. That's not to say other general authorities aren't direct but those like Elder Packer, Oaks and Bednar are known for addressing certain trying doctrines with a directness that leaves no room for misinterpretation or justification. This forces these individuals to accept or outright reject the teachings of modern prophets and they don't like that. It makes plain where they stand and exposes them for what they are.

This post reminds me of a recent Instagram post I scrolled into. The individual was a member of the Church who said, paraphrased, "I'm a member of the Church who stays in the Church and seeks to change it from within to be more inclusive."
This follows the thought provided, "We will see those who profess membership but secretly are plotting and trying to lead people not to follow the leadership that the Lord has set up to preside in this church."
I'm, very much, in agreement with the idea and concepts being shared. This is definitely happening in the Church today. I'm pretty sure someone posted here a while -- a while -- back sharing a video from some movie, episode, or podcast where the individual said, "I can do more damage to the Church by staying in the Church..."
President Nelson's quote regarding having the Spirit with us is the only that we will make it through these last days before Christ comes as strong followers/disciples of Jesus Christ. The purpose of the Spirit is to bear witness of truth, and to help us see things as they really are.
@MrShorty "Perhaps Goff is wrong and maybe the church will figure out how to keep people together in spite of such a divisive issue."
As to the following thought here, the Church already figured this out. The answer is Jesus Christ. If a person truly believes in Christ and His Church, the focus will be upon Christ and building up the Kingdom of God/Zion. Those who focus on this will be able to work together in peace and harmony -- despite their difference of thoughts and opinions (because these individuals will wait patiently on the Lord and how he moves His Church).
This notion extends both ways on the spectrum -- far right and far left. We have been counseled and taught to avoid any and all "religious hobbies." Religious hobbies is one of the easiest ways for the adversary to gain control and place into the heart of individuals to follow forbidden paths.
When any individual places any idea, any action, any decision above the Lord and His Church then they (the individual(s)) will choose to separate themselves from the Lord and His Church. The doctrine is very very clear on many things (the easiest one is marriage), and yet we have members who seek to blur the clarity, and place their thoughts, their decisions, their life choices above the Lord and His Church. This brings up the notion provided by Jacob in the Book of Mormon, "they despised the words of plainness." And we have that happening in our day -- words of plainness being despised by members of the Church such that they seek to change it and are angry with it.
 
 

This post reminds me of a recent Instagram post I scrolled into. The individual was a member of the Church who said, paraphrased, "I'm a member of the Church who stays in the Church and seeks to change it from within to be more inclusive."
This follows the thought provided, "We will see those who profess membership but secretly are plotting and trying to lead people not to follow the leadership that the Lord has set up to preside in this church."
I'm, very much, in agreement with the idea and concepts being shared. This is definitely happening in the Church today. I'm pretty sure someone posted here a while -- a while -- back sharing a video from some movie, episode, or podcast where the individual said, "I can do more damage to the Church by staying in the Church..."
President Nelson's quote regarding having the Spirit with us is the only that we will make it through these last days before Christ comes as strong followers/disciples of Jesus Christ. The purpose of the Spirit is to bear witness of truth, and to help us see things as they really are.
@MrShorty "Perhaps Goff is wrong and maybe the church will figure out how to keep people together in spite of such a divisive issue."
As to the following thought here, the Church already figured this out. The answer is Jesus Christ. If a person truly believes in Christ and His Church, the focus will be upon Christ and building up the Kingdom of God/Zion. Those who focus on this will be able to work together in peace and harmony -- despite their difference of thoughts and opinions (because these individuals will wait patiently on the Lord and how he moves His Church).
This notion extends both ways on the spectrum -- far right and far left. We have been counseled and taught to avoid any and all "religious hobbies." Religious hobbies is one of the easiest ways for the adversary to gain control and place into the heart of individuals to follow forbidden paths.
When any individual places any idea, any action, any decision above the Lord and His Church then they (the individual(s)) will choose to separate themselves from the Lord and His Church. The doctrine is very very clear on many things (the easiest one is marriage), and yet we have members who seek to blur the clarity, and place their thoughts, their decisions, their life choices above the Lord and His Church. This brings up the notion provided by Jacob in the Book of Mormon, "they despised the words of plainness." And we have that happening in our day -- words of plainness being despised by members of the Church such that they seek to change it and are angry with it.
 
 

This post reminds me of a recent Instagram post I scrolled into. The individual was a member of the Church who said, paraphrased, "I'm a member of the Church who stays in the Church and seeks to change it from within to be more inclusive."
This follows the thought provided, "We will see those who profess membership but secretly are plotting and trying to lead people not to follow the leadership that the Lord has set up to preside in this church."
I'm, very much, in agreement with the idea and concepts being shared. This is definitely happening in the Church today. I'm pretty sure someone posted here a while -- a while -- back sharing a video from some movie, episode, or podcast where the individual said, "I can do more damage to the Church by staying in the Church..."
President Nelson's quote regarding having the Spirit with us is the only that we will make it through these last days before Christ comes as strong followers/disciples of Jesus Christ. The purpose of the Spirit is to bear witness of truth, and to help us see things as they really are.
@MrShorty "Perhaps Goff is wrong and maybe the church will figure out how to keep people together in spite of such a divisive issue."
As to the following thought here, the Church already figured this out. The answer is Jesus Christ. If a person truly believes in Christ and His Church, the focus will be upon Christ and building up the Kingdom of God/Zion. Those who focus on this will be able to work together in peace and harmony -- despite their difference of thoughts and opinions (because these individuals will wait patiently on the Lord and how he moves His Church).
This notion extends both ways on the spectrum -- far right and far left. We have been counseled and taught to avoid any and all "religious hobbies." Religious hobbies is one of the easiest ways for the adversary to gain control and place into the heart of individuals to follow forbidden paths.
When any individual places any idea, any action, any decision above the Lord and His Church then they (the individual(s)) will choose to separate themselves from the Lord and His Church. The doctrine is very very clear on many things (the easiest one is marriage), and yet we have members who seek to blur the clarity, and place their thoughts, their decisions, their life choices above the Lord and His Church. This brings up the notion provided by Jacob in the Book of Mormon, "they despised the words of plainness." And we have that happening in our day -- words of plainness being despised by members of the Church such that they seek to change it and are angry with it.
 
 

This post reminds me of a recent Instagram post I scrolled into. The individual was a member of the Church who said, paraphrased, "I'm a member of the Church who stays in the Church and seeks to change it from within to be more inclusive."
This follows the thought provided, "We will see those who profess membership but secretly are plotting and trying to lead people not to follow the leadership that the Lord has set up to preside in this church."
I'm, very much, in agreement with the idea and concepts being shared. This is definitely happening in the Church today. I'm pretty sure someone posted here a while -- a while -- back sharing a video from some movie, episode, or podcast where the individual said, "I can do more damage to the Church by staying in the Church..."
President Nelson's quote regarding having the Spirit with us is the only that we will make it through these last days before Christ comes as strong followers/disciples of Jesus Christ. The purpose of the Spirit is to bear witness of truth, and to help us see things as they really are.
@MrShorty "Perhaps Goff is wrong and maybe the church will figure out how to keep people together in spite of such a divisive issue."
As to the following thought here, the Church already figured this out. The answer is Jesus Christ. If a person truly believes in Christ and His Church, the focus will be upon Christ and building up the Kingdom of God/Zion. Those who focus on this will be able to work together in peace and harmony -- despite their difference of thoughts and opinions (because these individuals will wait patiently on the Lord and how he moves His Church).
This notion extends both ways on the spectrum -- far right and far left. We have been counseled and taught to avoid any and all "religious hobbies." Religious hobbies is one of the easiest ways for the adversary to gain control and place into the heart of individuals to follow forbidden paths.
When any individual places any idea, any action, any decision above the Lord and His Church then they (the individual(s)) will choose to separate themselves from the Lord and His Church. The doctrine is very very clear on many things (the easiest one is marriage), and yet we have members who seek to blur the clarity, and place their thoughts, their decisions, their life choices above the Lord and His Church. This brings up the notion provided by Jacob in the Book of Mormon, "they despised the words of plainness." And we have that happening in our day -- words of plainness being despised by members of the Church such that they seek to change it and are angry with it.
 
 

This post reminds me of a recent Instagram post I scrolled into. The individual was a member of the Church who said, paraphrased, "I'm a member of the Church who stays in the Church and seeks to change it from within to be more inclusive."
This follows the thought provided, "We will see those who profess membership but secretly are plotting and trying to lead people not to follow the leadership that the Lord has set up to preside in this church."
I'm, very much, in agreement with the idea and concepts being shared. This is definitely happening in the Church today. I'm pretty sure someone posted here a while -- a while -- back sharing a video from some movie, episode, or podcast where the individual said, "I can do more damage to the Church by staying in the Church..."
President Nelson's quote regarding having the Spirit with us is the only that we will make it through these last days before Christ comes as strong followers/disciples of Jesus Christ. The purpose of the Spirit is to bear witness of truth, and to help us see things as they really are.
@MrShorty "Perhaps Goff is wrong and maybe the church will figure out how to keep people together in spite of such a divisive issue."
As to the following thought here, the Church already figured this out. The answer is Jesus Christ. If a person truly believes in Christ and His Church, the focus will be upon Christ and building up the Kingdom of God/Zion. Those who focus on this will be able to work together in peace and harmony -- despite their difference of thoughts and opinions (because these individuals will wait patiently on the Lord and how he moves His Church).
This notion extends both ways on the spectrum -- far right and far left. We have been counseled and taught to avoid any and all "religious hobbies." Religious hobbies is one of the easiest ways for the adversary to gain control and place into the heart of individuals to follow forbidden paths.
When any individual places any idea, any action, any decision above the Lord and His Church then they (the individual(s)) will choose to separate themselves from the Lord and His Church. The doctrine is very very clear on many things (the easiest one is marriage), and yet we have members who seek to blur the clarity, and place their thoughts, their decisions, their life choices above the Lord and His Church. This brings up the notion provided by Jacob in the Book of Mormon, "they despised the words of plainness." And we have that happening in our day -- words of plainness being despised by members of the Church such that they seek to change it and are angry with it.
 
 

My understanding is that Martin Luther did not initially want to start a schism. However, church leadership required that he recant his criticisms. It was not enough that he stop complaining--he had to publicly apologize for his criticisms and say he was wrong. That he could not do. 

My first reaction when I first saw this: Most histories I see claim that Martin Luther never wanted nor intended to separate from Catholicism when he first wrote his 95 theses (and maybe nailed them to the door of the church). But, for some reason, others in Catholicism, rather than engage with Luther's doubts and concerns and criticisms, chose to push him out of the Catholic church which led to the Reformation (obviously, I'm simplifying/oversimplifying the history). In the same way, it really seems to me that the conservative LDS church, when faced with "LDS Protestant" doubts and concerns and criticisms tend to call "wolf in sheep's clothing" or some such rather than really engage and wrestle and struggle with the "LDS Protestant's" doubts and concerns and criticisms. In this respect, I think Goff's observation is likely true. A "schism" is on the horizon. It sometimes seems to me that Goff and other ultraorthodox like him insist that the LDS Protestants bear all the blame for the coming schism and never want to consider their own role in promoting said schism. I think one of the most frustrating ideas that comes from them is a call for "progmos" to hurry up and leave the church, because it's inevitable (somehow) and the church has no place for progressives (or doubters or some such).
I find it interesting that Goff chooses a quote about following the prophet as if the prophet cannot make any mistakes. I find that almost all of my own "LDS Protestant" views center around the question of prophetic fallibility and what God expects us to believe and do in the face of prophetic errors. I'm no Luther, so won't go publishing my own theses, but, if I did, they would probably center around the exact same issue that Goff chooses to highlight here.
I suppose we'll see what happens. I found it interesting in my reading of Paul Reeve's history of the priesthood and temple ban that he noted that the LDS church avoided the schisms the plagued other Protestant denominations around the race and slavery issues, in spite of having plenty of people on both sides of that particular divide. Perhaps Goff is wrong and maybe the church will figure out how to keep people together in spite of such a divisive issue. If there are bridges to be found, I doubt that Goff will be the one to find and build those bridges (someone mentioned Givens -- he might be able to do it, though).

I think there's a great deal of room for private interpretation and private revelation. However, revelation given me to enhance my understanding, even if perfectly true and correct, is to me. I have no authority to preach my personal revelation to anyone else, unless that has already been publicly revealed through a prophet who has been specifically called to reveal the word of God to others. Other than that, my amazing insightful personal revelations about what this or that scripture really mean is just that, personal, not for anyone else. I am, in fact, under covenant to keep such revelations to myself. If I do not, I prove myself an unworthy servant who can't keep a secret, and such revelation will terminate until I repent. (At least until then, maybe longer.)

The original Protestants actually did try to fix some things that were wrong in Catholicism. But I get what he is saying.
I have wondered about these individuals that he is describing, whether they were deceivers from the beginning or if something happened to them along the way. I think many of them started out true to the Church but as they gained "social influence" they became wise in their eyes and that need to influence becomes more important than the truth. At that point Satan gains the influence.
I remember one of the then newly called apostles being counseled by a senior apostle that the members would fawn over them and be very gracious in their compliments but that he shouldn't "breathe it in." Wise counsel no matter our station.

I think I agree with this guy.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CyjGDRfuiqm/?igshid=MmU2YjMzNjRlOQ==
(Please note that this person's quote is primarily from Harold B. Lee in 1970. He includes President Nelson's photograph, but this is not President Nelson. It's just some guy who goes by "gogogoff0" and who coined a new term that he thinks is fitting. As I wrote above, I think I agree with him.)
    gogogoff0   There is a growing schism (division) within the Church fueled by Social Media Influencers. It is not a left vs. right, nor is it an American vs non-American. It is those who follow the prophet vs those who I've dubbed as Protestant Mormons. They claim to believe *most* doctrines of the Church, but protest against the prophet and seek to set up their "personal authority" that they derive from their own "personal revelation" as an alternative to prophetic teachings.

As I am prepping to write about this, I found this mic drop quote:

"We have some tight places to go before the Lord is through with this church and the world in this dispensation, which is the last dispensation, which shall usher in the coming of the Lord. The gospel was restored to prepare a people ready to receive him. The power of Satan will increase; we see it in evidence on every hand. There will be inroads within the Church. There will be, as President Tanner has said, "Hypocrites, those professing, but secretly are full of dead men's bones." Matt. 23:27 We will see those who profess membership but secretly are plotting and trying to lead people not to follow the leadership that the Lord has set up to preside in this church.

Now the only safety we have as members of this church is to do exactly what the Lord said to the Church in that day when the Church was organized. We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, "as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me—as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith." D&C 21:4-5 There will be some things that take patience and faith. You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself, with patience and faith, the promise is that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name's glory." D&C 21:6"
Harold B. Lee
Conference, Oct. 1970

A few names to check into James Prout lastdaystimeline.com,
https://www.lastdaystimeline.com/
 
 
Morgan Philpot watch all 3 this is part 2
... both go into detail of signs and Ezras Eagle the Apachropha
what we may be experiencing now are the vials, the sign of the sign of times.  I've been studying this since 2011, and I just recently came across the idea that the 7th seal may have been opened the evening of the dedication of the Palmyra Temple April 6, 2000.  I can't say for certain, but the entire scripture references both they two have are amazing to study.  Good luck

I personally believe that the Nephites and Lamanites spread so much that their descendants can probably be found among most native tribes. But it does appear that acceptance of the gospel is more prevalent among central and south American native members than North American. Does that mean anything? Idk. 

At best, I only have a mild curiosity about the debates regarding the arrival point of Lehi and his shipmates in the Americas, and the locations of Nephite and Lamanite lands. From the little I know, it appears that people try to work out these things by reference to geographical features and clues and hints in the Book of Mormon.
It seems to me that another approach to working out these things could be to study the promises made in the Book of Mormon regarding the latter-day circumstances of the descendants of the people of the Book of Mormon, and then see in what areas or lands those promises are being most strongly or clearly fulfilled. Perhaps it might be the case that wherever, and on whomever, those promises are being most strongly fulfilled are the descendants of those to whom the promises were first made, and then it becomes a less complicated matter of tracing back the origins, or places of earliest habitation, of those people.
How useful might this approach be and how likely is it that it might yield some valid clues about Lehi’s point of arrival and the locations where his descendants lived?

As a convert, my assumption was that not everyone wants to live in the Celestial Kingdom, that not everyone wants an eternal marriage, that not everyone wants an eternal family, that not everyone wants resurrection and immortality, etc. However, I have come to realize that, at some point, everyone wanted these things (after all, we are in the second estate for that very reason!), but they come to not want it as a result of denying our conscience (the light of Christ) through disobedience and the traditions of men (D&C 93: 38-39), with or without a knowledge of the restored gospel. This happens to many Church members also, so even more reason to preach the ideal first and foremost. The testimony of Christ should be given in connection with any of these "appendages" to His resurrection and His Atonement which made it possible.
I still carry that same assumption, but I have also grown in the power of the Lord's Redemption and to emphasize the ideal blessings which describe the fruits of His redemption.