Pamela818

What I'm going to share is not in line with LDS teachings; however, the answer to your perceptive question has been asked by many others and their thoughts (apocrypha-based), to me, are interesting. The 1st Creation involves two Gods (or one m/f androgenous) who make 'male and female' by speaking them into existence. The 2nd Creation beginning at Gen. 2:4 is a single (lesser) God who uses dust already there (this God was not the creator of the world but thinks there is no one before him) to make man alone. This God is unable to make woman (won't explore here) but before he figures that out, he keeps making animals in hopes of finding Adam a help-meet. The Adam created from dust is smarter than this lesser God and so is allowed to name the animals (how he is smarter than the God who 'made him' is explained). Anyway, Adam is not happy with the selection animals, so lesser God puts Adam to sleep and builds woman from the rib by the mental image of the woman in the 1st Creation (there are other speculations about this as well). This lesser God in apocrypha is Yaldabaoth/Yaltabaoth (Nimrod?) who was conceived by thought (Barbelo/Sophia) without the permission of her consort. Because the offspring was not 'complete', the mother tried to hide him and she lost some of her Light in the process and, perhaps, became Jezebel (gone a little crazy without all her Light). It all seemed pretty fantastical to me at first. Then I began to contemplate the "2 Arks" and how different they were; two accounts of Abraham lying about his wife-sister and the very different outcomes of the 'same' incident. I've only recently started exploring Genesis in detail looking for this type of inconsistency but am amazed in only the first 36 chapters of Genesis. Like God insisting twice that Isaac is Abraham's *only* son. 2 Abrahams as well? (2 Abrahams, etc. began when watching a Christian program and hearing the speaker say, "The only way Moses wrote the Bible is if there was another man named Moses." Question I had suddenly had a path to explore.) Today, I seriously think that we haven't really begun to explore the deeper mysteries of the Bible - and now I'm afraid the world will end before we get a chance to appreciate the exquisite clues God left for us right in front of our noses. Today, I subscribe to the saying, "The Truth is all around us if we but have the eyes to see." Just becaue the apocrypha didn't make it into the Bible doesn't mean it wasn't preserved for us to use when we became more spiritually mature - even if it is still but a fraction of a bigger framework. The curiosity factor is God-given and I'm grateful, today, to have been given a healty dose of it (tho in my younger years, too many questions and didn't know where to look for answers was frustrating). I'm grateful to be living in a time when the information of the world is at our fingertips to explore with the Holy Spirit as my Guide. I see organized religion as a framework within which to grow, not become stagnate and mummified in dogma. Christ is *Living* Truth. The reason I have an interest in LDS is the openness with which you (collectively) speak of the Holy Spirit for new Insight and the commitment to leading moral lives - the community that appears to thrive. The BYU Devotional Addresses fascinate me because the Elders who speak seem genuinely concerned for the souls of the students and pass on their experiences and widsom so freely. *I* certainly benefit! The missionary visits are going well, I think. No major obstacles with the Book of Mormon so far. Baptism of the dead seems strange but I've found an intensive (unbiased) article by BYU that is helping to sort it out. I don't know yet if my willingness and need to 'think outside the box' to follow where the Holy Ghost leads me will turn out to be a hindrance to joing the LDS Church on the part of the Church. I don't see any religon as being perfect - our Undertsanding is incomplete unless we become "Filled by the Holy Ghost" while still in the body. But it is my understanding from Holy Ghost that it will never be necessary to change the structure of a church to accomodate new learning. That would just alert the archons. We are to be 'gentle as doves and as sly as the snake who has made so many paths crooked' and not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing. I wonder if my next step should be to speak with a bishop rather than keep using the time of the missionaries if my Path of following the Holy Ghost is unacceptable in the LDS religion. Perhaps I'll just have to keep watching from the outside. Dunno.

I know, from experience, that there is a much more profound *experience* of the Holy Ghost possible for those who come to confession from a different angle and with spiritual awareness. We are all meant to Know this 'Fixed Point' for ourselves. To make *conscious contact* with the Holy Ghost and have direct communication thereafter. In order to be *led*, I need to Know my Leader personally. I am not saying this is the only way to discover the Presence of the Holy Ghost - as some have white-light and near-death experiences, as well as many other 'singular-event' experiences. However, I am saying that confession is the one place that *all* of us may find the Holy Ghost. Forgiveness is Divine. The Source manifests Within us when we confess with a contrite heart. "Repentance is that sorrow for sin which results in newness of life." "An apprehension of the mercy of God is laying hold of the mercy of God in Christ--not merely knowing that there is mercy with God in Christ, but a personal appropriation or laying hold (experience) of that mercy for ourselves. A drowning man is not saved merely by knowing that a rope has been thrown from the ship for his rescue, but by his apprehending or laying hold of it for himself; and so it is with the sinner whose repentance is brought about, not by vague notions that God so loved the world, but by his personal appropriation of God's love for himself." (Significant Entymology - Mitchell James)

Hi, Anatess ~ Not too personal at all...just hope I haven't gone TMI. <g> Actually, it still amazes me that my leap from damnation to Redemption hinged on being willing to 'take a leap of faith' out of my firmly-held belief that confession was illogical and thus unnecessary. My infallible (heh) thinking went thus: I was taught in parochial school ( & church 6 days/wk) that: God knows/sees ALL. I was encouraged to pray to God often for wants, gratitude, help. No middlemen required. Enter the rationale of confession: I am to tell a priest/stranger *everything*, including 'indulging in self-pleasure and other sexual things, if any (which struck me as perverse). The priest: 1. Knows not whether I'm lying, telling half-truths or omitting sins - because he isn't God. 2. Has no clue whether I'm sorry for whatever it is that I do tell him - because he isn't God. 3. Gives me 'penance' (not in Bible) of repetitive prayer (useless per the Bible) based on some personal preference of how serious *he* finds my sins against God. 4. Then has the audacity to tell me, "By the Power invested in me by God....your sins are forgiven." I didin't know what kind of indoctrination they had to go through in order to believe it themselves - but I didn't. To me, they were just men, not God. Only God can forgive sins. My conclusion was that since God knew what I did and whether I was sorry for it or not - the two of us could handle things just fine. Guess things got crowded (or likely too uncomfortable <g>) because then I became agnostic - and it was just me chastizing or approving little ole me. Oddly, one of the hardest slogans in AA for me to 'get' was: "There is a God and I'm not it." I thought it terribly silly, "Who in the world goes around thinking they are God?!" I kid you not that it took at least a year of working the spiritual path of AA before the light shone through that particur blind spot. The 5th Step in AA is .... confession. Took me 4 years and coming to a 'jumping off' point to find the willingness to Trust AA to that degree and JUST DO IT. And found the Holy Ghost, beyond doubt, 24/7. Whatta deal! :)

I'm 59 and I came into contact with the Mormon chuch when I was 21 or so. I only have a couple of memories of attending services. (I had been raised Catholic and attended parochial school but had 'jumped ship' at 16 over the 'faulty logic' of confession. So I was adrift with no harbor in sight religiously.) What makes it murky in my mind, I think, is my involvment with a Mormon named Danny. The memory of the night I was tempting him to sexual sin at his house where he lived with his parents is intact. He rebuffed me and stated calmly but clearly of his intention to remain chaste. Things may have gone awkward with being a member of the church after that. It wasn't a feeling of rejection that I remember about that night, but a feeling of being 'unclean'. I can only assume, at the level of my immaturity at the time (and for many years after), that I fled any contacts that would 'touch on' that memory. And, now writing, I'm wondering if the 'freedom' to return to the Mormon church has to do with having done a thorough confession of sexual sin a while back - of which I included seeking forgiveness for temptiing Danny. The conviction on this matter, even though 'nothing happened', was unmistakable when doing preparation for the confession process. Listening to a BYU Dev. Add. (Elder Lynn Robbins, "Avoid It") yesterday, one line in particular stood out, "Do not do anything that arouses sexual feelings in others." Such an all-encompassing statement..dress, dance, kissing...eh? Today (and for a long time now), however, it would be me in Danny's place saying, "This far an no further in this friendship." Some lessons take 'a while' to learn. Thanks for the question. The Holy Ghost has shown me that confession and forgiveness privately is the first part of the process. Once forgiven, I share my Forgiveness experience with others when the Holy Spirit provides an opportunity, not only encourage others but to confirm within myself that no conviction on this issue remains (no loose ends). Amazing Grace, indeed.

I don't expect *anyone* to have all the answers - including me! I surely meant no criticism in *any* way. I shared the question that came up in case others may have ideas to share on the topic. No worries. :)

Hello, All ~ It was a wonderful visit with two young women who had a joyful, quiet confidence about them. We talked of many things and I look forward to their next visit on Tuesday. How many missionary visits are normally done? I hope quite a few! :) Sister S. had a 'Book' with her that was a full Bible, D&C, BoM, and Pearl of Great Price all in one - with references that referred back from the Mormon books to the Bible and to each other. I found that quite amazing. Had never thought about how integrated LDS was to the Bible - perhaps subconsciously I thought they relied mainly on the LDS Scripture - kind of 'instead of' rather than 'in additon to'. Anyway, it's good to be wrong, wherever I got the notion. I have been a solitary studier of Scripture for the past five years or so and it was so neat to be able to speak openly to others who love the Trinity and the Word. Sister S. gave her testimony of Joseph Smith as Prophet. I have no problem with trusting that Joseph Smith received many revelations. However, I questioned the 'prophet' part because of my understanding of the word. I also wanted to know how they answered the query of 'the head of prophecy being cut off with John the Baptist' per Jesus. Anyway, they'll get back to me. I don't see it as a stumbling block...more a curiosity. We spoke a good bit about the Holy Ghost and my experience of having discovered Him/Her in AA several years ago. While many people only know AA as a means to get sober - I was so amazed at *being* sober that I had to know How and Why AA worked. Turns out the Higher Power of AA is the Holy Ghost, but most (today) never come to know that. Bill W. never meant for us to stop at sobriety - all the clues for finding the 'Great Reality Within' (as he called It) are within the pages as well. "Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us." Took me four years but, finally!, one day, I Knew Who he was talking about! If you don't mind my asking, what process does LDS use for members to find the Holy Spirit for themselves? Thanks for the guidance and interest - it feels as though I've begun another great adventure somehow. :) Pamela

I just made the call and the Bishop (!) who answered will have the missionaries get in touch with me soon. I'm thrilled to be answering the 'call within' finally! And while writing this, the missionary called and will be here at 2:30p! What can I say but Thank You so much for the encouragement to act. In God's Love, Pamela

Is it possible to participate in the LDS Church services and social programs without becoming a member immediately? The more I watch BYU Devotional Addresses and panel discussions, the more drawn I feel to the LDS encouragement of Godly living and Scriptural understanding. I was baptized into the Mormon faith around 1977 as a 'seeker' in my early 20s but went in other directions thereafter for many years. I don't know if that baptism is null and void or if there is a way of resurrecting it from the ashes of time. What is the procedure for being baptized into the LDS faith? Are there classes, etc. that one must take? Thank you! Pamela

Well, it may depend on what one thinks ‘fulfill’ means. For me, it means he came to correct /redeem us from the deficiency of a (male) God’s Law. It appears there may be two Gods operating in the OT (rather than one with a split personality). For one instance among many, one God loves the smell of burning animals; the other is disgusted by the smell of same. Possibility of a male and female God operating. Don't know for sure. (And I don't exclude quiet interventions by Christ or the True God in some places, as well.) I use Greek Mythology as a *framework* - Zeus and Hera, Prometheus, Ixion, etc. There are a lot of intentional (or otherwise) ‘misdirections’ – so, without Spirit, I would never be able to discern the useful from the useless. Also, the Nag Hammadi texts are intriguing. For me, the True God is Love. (period) The Judging God (Prince of Lies/Devil) judges the ones who die still on His side of the fence. Christ’s ministry removed the temporary necessity of the Old Law - it was but a step towards a Greater Goal/Purpose (but with a caveat). Christ isn't the author of the 10 Commandments - and they are superceded by the 2 of the NT. However, if I'm not joined to the NT by the Holy Spirit/Christ, I'm still under the Old Covenant upon death. 2Cor3:9 - For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 2Cor3:14 – But their mental powers were dulled. For to this present day the same veil remains unlifted at the reading of the old covenant, because it is done away with by means of Christ. In fact, down till today whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their hearts. But when there is a turning to Christ, the veil is taken away. Now Christ is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of Christ is, there is freedom. … exactly as done by Christ the Spirit. (The Holy Spirit offers freedom from the Oppressor Gods, the deficient father and mother. “…unless you hate your mother and father… you cannot be my disciple.” And, John 8:44: "'Ye are of a father, the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; ---Christ met a man laboring on the Sabbath - a sin deserving of death by stoning, according to the Mosaic law. Jesus said to the man: "Man, if thou knowest what thou doest, blessed art thou; but if thou knowest not, accursed art thou, and a transgressor of the Law."--- The man will be judged by the Law unless the Highest Principle (Holy Spirit) has interceded (Seek and ye shall Find), which would then release him from the consequences of the Law – reincarnation/fate). My understanding, thus far, that is. Luke 14: 34 - “Salt is good, but if it loses its flavor, how can it be made salty again? 35 It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” (For me, the Holy Spirit is the ‘Salt Restorer’.) ------ I understand that a priest (nor anyone else) cannot be held responsible for an insincere confession. My main objections to anywhere Proper Confessions are 'hijacked' are: 1. Forgiveness comes from Within by the Power of the Holy Spirit who resides there. The Church teaches that the priest is the Absolver. Now, I can see where in the time of Christ there had to be the usual start-up problems with 'a new procedure'. First, the apostles, then others added to accomodate the growing number of converts. However, if it had been taught that upon a Good/rigorously honest confession that the person was now qualified to *hear* a confession ("Lord, make me an Instrument of Thy Peace"), then there may have been a few less folks dying in a sinful state because an apostle or someone 'specially trained in Absolution' was not available. It's also possible that because Christ hadn't ascended yet, the apostles were granted authority by Christ - and when the Holy Spirit then arrived for *all* persons, the situation changed. But 'power' is a tuff thing to give up. What fun would it have been if everyone had been taught the "rules of engagement' for the Holy Spirit to become the personal Guide to thousands? 2. When I discovered the Holy Spirit upon completing the 5th Step of AA (with a woman), I was initially in shock and awe. Later, I realized that either the Catholic Church has lost knowledge of the Key for how we are to find the Holy Spirit within ourselves (a very sad thing, indeed; and doubtful) or ... it is done intentionally to maintain power and control. Freely telling us the Holy Spirit exists - but never a peep about how to find It for ourselves - and then misdirecting the Truth of the matter. If this scenario is the case, it isn't difficult to find the applicable verse: Gospel of Thomas #39: Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so...." The Gnostics certainly Knew. Additionally, I wonder if even the priests are given the Key when in training. It's hard to imagine anyone having the Experience of the Holy Spirit and then choosing damnation. In which case, it is certainly fortunate that the sinner is the one who receives Forgiveness from Within upon conviction by the Holy Spirit, eh? It was always a puzzle to me growing up why my mother would comment after going to Confession about how much better she felt. Never once did she suspect that the feeling that her Ego misdirected as "relief" was actually Forgiveness. I was glad to find what you wrote in another thread. Says a lot: All the Best, Pamela "Whenever I'm disturbed, the problem is within me. Always." “For it is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he has a conceit that he already knows.” Epictetus

1. As for Creation, the 1st one works for me. The 2nd is where the rub/evil/miscreation came in, for me. 2. Catholic teachings: Nah, they taught what they still teach - what many religions teach. That God gets angry, is disappointed, saddened, punishing, vindictive ... the God of the Old Testament (not saying the True One doesn't make appearances). Hateful, insecure, confused, out of control, jealous, contentious - pits his 'other half' against man in fun (Job).... A God who's innerds are in humans. A God we are to fear and prostrate before. I said, "No, thanks. If I have to fear a God who *says* they love me, I'll pass. I can get that at home." A 'human' God didn't make the cut. Then we have Christ who teaches Love, and only Love. That the Kingdom is Within - all we need to find the Way Out of the chaos, is within us. The evil (miscreated entity), the questioner, and the Guide. Have Guide, will travel. For me, there was no marrying those two entities. Can't have it both ways. Hate one and love the other, or love one and hate the other - but not both. And I didn't know how to love the way Christ did - copying behavior isn't the same as having a pure inside and the behavior emanates from that. It's inside-out, not the other way 'round. And learning to have compassion for the evil/blind one within me has been an adventure. Grace helps me, I help the 'lost sheep' by showing him the way to the alter of Grace. At least that's the framework I'm currently using. And, to be honest, I was also, reluctantly, disappointed with Christ back then. To tell us the Holy Spirit was within - but failed to tell us how to Know, for ourselves - how to get to It. What was the point of dangling the carrot He knew we couldn't reach? I searched for a very long time - then gave up. Alcoholism stopped the questions, but brought a new hell. Imagine my dumbfounding surprise when in AA, I read: "...We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us." And many more 'clues' couched in terms of God that actually point to Within. I was back on the hunt. <s> 3. Confession. Church told me to pray to God often about everything. That only God knew whether I was truly sorry for something. Then they tell me I have to confess my sins to a priest - who knows nothing about whether I'm sorry or not. And, worst of all, says, "By the power invested in me by God/The Church, *I* absolve you of your sins." Well, nothing about it said 'logical', to me. And by 16, I'd already figured out that the priest was a man and not the 'holier than thou' person I was led to believe he was. It was a conundrum when I got to AA and saw the 5th Step. "What's Confession doing in AA?!" I tried and tried to figure out where my logic was in error. Couldn't find a flaw. The 5th Step was out of the question. Fortunately, I had enough stuff for the 4th Step to keep me busy for at least fifty years (new items kept appearing), so I trudged on. And since the 'uncanny synchronicities' kept happening, I didn't worry. In the Bible, it says, "Confess to one another." That's AA, and is far different from transferring the Power of Forgiveness to another person rather than discovering for oneself that the Power/Grace is Within. Takes awareness to 'notice', but those 'mind tools' that I used for 4 yrs prior to doing the 5th Step were the key. Another revelation was to understand the following: It is impossible to 'get good enough' to deserve/be worthy to receive the Holy Spirit. One cannot become Truly Good - without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was with me while I was living with grievous sin - Gotta go - tornado warning for this county. Probably 'nuff said anyway. <g> Best to All, Pamela Don't *believe* anything I say. Desire to Know, for yourself, if anything I say is true. "You can only find Truth with logic if you've already found Truth without it." GK Chesterton

OP: " this morning we had another incident, I spanked him, yelled at him, told him I was not going to allow him to be in our home anymore, that he was not allowed to talk to or be around his sisters anymore." I'll play 'the other side' in wondering if his behavior couldn't be repeated in an effort to *be* removed from the home. It sounds pretty grueling. Kids aren't stupid. I wasn't. At maybe 5 or 6 yrs, I once said to my father, "I like it when your home. Mommy doesn't like me." "What? Your mother *loves* you! Don't you ever let me hear you say that again!" He never heard it again. Didn't make it less true. She gave with one hand and took with the other. What happened 'for show'/duty was different than other times. I've also come to strongly suspect, in my spiritual path, there that is such a thing as "spiritual genetics" - the soul one receives as a composit of the parents is passed on. Children become mirrors for the hidden/covered things in parents. Perhaps existential quilt has this as one of the sources. I don't have a stellar past. Three times I whipped my step-daughter with a belt either drunk or hung-over. Spiritual problems require spiritual solutions. To Understand is to Heal. Doing the work to receive Healing for myself, then spreads to others. Hidden ~ nothing changes if nothing chages. The change had to begin with me being willing to admit there may be a better way. Spirit can't lead if I'm unwilling to let loose of the reins of the other horse. Scary? You bet. They didn't tell me it would be easy - they told me it would be worth it. That was/is my experience.

I don't know in what way 'agency' is meant in LDS/spiritual context, so will bypass that. However, from experience, I found that I had no true understanding of 'free will' until I discovered the Holy Spirit within, beyond doubt. Prior to that time, I was either leaning on my own understanding (outside learning/experience) or following Ego/soul (where I got a lot of that experience in discovering Ego can lead to some pretty awful dead ends/consequences). It only *felt* as if I was excersizing 'true' choice. Turned out that both of us are ignorant - just one moreso than the other. One has little the hidden flicker that must be called forth and fanned; the other no Light. For example, ego would cry for revenge of some wrong. I also would have like that but had learned the negative side of pursuing such a course - it often doubles back. So, the motivation for being 'good' was not from a spiritual understanding - although I felt 'righteous' in 'taking the high road' upon choosing it. <g> One of the more emphatic revelations: I was not 'good' because I was innately 'good' - I did good things so others would say I was good, so that I could then believe it myself. I did good things to cover the evil lurking within me that I couldn't see/face. "Man cannot serve two masters." Switching back and forth from Ego being master and me being pseudo-master - made for a dance that only felt like living. It was an incredible experience to find that *I* never was 'in control' - the grand illusion. When I discovered the Holy Spirit, I suddenly realized that I now had two *Real* choices - to follow Ego or follow H.S. My life changed dramatically, and is still changing. The monotony and futility of life no longer plagues me - there is a Point. That's the nutshell, to date. Pamela P.S. I don't have enough posts to do an Intro post, so will give a quick one here for context. I left the Catholic Church when I was 16 (tho completed 12 yrs parochial schooling). I left over the illogical concept of Confession as well as the contradiction between singing "God is Love" and hearing about the God who hated his creation and was angry all the time. (The stuff of many atheists and agnostics.) Today, I know better. I then joined the US military. I met some missionaries and was baptised into the LDS faith. That lasted until I was reassigned and for a short time thereafter. Then fell away - quite a distance. Time passed. I married for the first time at 36. Before the marriage ended four years later, I'd become a regular drinker. After the marriage, complete alcoholism. At 44, I found AA and sobriety. And then found the Spiritual Path of AA - and a New Life. That was 13 yrs ago. It was on the prompting of H.S. that I was led back to LDS through this forum. I'd actually forgotton that I'd once been a member. Confused, but willing, I suited up and showed up to see what Spirit wants me to find here. It is quite a balm to hear Holy Spirit spoken so freely. Tis not that way in 'straight' AA. Following Spirit is like the greatest Easter Egg Hunt ever. <bg> Life is definitely not boring - unless I turn off awareness, which I strive not to do. Best to All, Pamela

Hi ~ I'm a new member. What's it 'securing'? What was happening that caused the measure to be adopted? Inquiring minds would really like to know. :) And it is made all the more strange by the following announcement at the top of every page of the Forum I visit: "Hello Pamela818, Our records indicate that you have never posted to our site before! Why not make your first post today by saying hello to our community in our Introductions forum. Why not start with your first post today and become an active part of LDS.net now!" Oh, and then there's the message that came up when I tried to do the Intro post by starting a new thread for it (several times, thinking it was temporarily out of order - I'm a persistent sort. <g>): "Pamela818, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons: Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system? If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation. " I think those who made the changes don't see the 'beginner pages' anymore and so may not realize how confusing this is. At least for a couple us. <g> Anyway, 1 post down! <bg> I'm thoroughly enjoying reading in many areas of the Forum and hope to join in soon! Best to All, Pamela