Convert55

Wow! This thread started in 2008. There is a lot of good stuff in here. Having had two children born with the same debilitating genetic disorder I have gone through most all the thought processes you have covered in this thread and I must say that I have had a ton of why questions over the years. And to reveal my selfishness, when my son was born and his condition was immediately apparent my first question was, “Why me? What did I do to deserve this?” Then after a few years and having a boy and a girl with the same genetic defect and finding out what exceedingly special spirits were inside them, and I had charge of raising them when I myself was closer to the other end of the spectrum from what they were I said to myself, “Why me? What did I do to deserve this?” Eventually I took “Me” out of the picture and just asked why must these things be? I believe that there is no one single answer but many valid and true answers according to needs of the Lord. What is really surprising to me is that no one has gotten around to talking about the atonement on this thread. One of the reasons that these things must be is, I believe, because of the atonement. I will offer a line of reasoning that may be flawed but still may have a thread of truth in it, so bear with me. In Alma we read: Alma 7:12 12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. If you will allow that “he will take upon him their infirmities” to mean that Christ will take upon him and overcome all things that can go wrong with the body then I think I can show that in the resurrection no one will have to suffer these things because Christ has overcome them. Lets take a look at 2Ne 9 6 For as adeath hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the mercifulbplan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power ofcresurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the dfall; and the fall came by reason of etransgression; and because man became fallen they were fcut off from thegpresence of the Lord. Notice how in verse 6 the main subject is resurrection and now in verse 7 Jacob slips into the atonement almost interchangeably. 7 Wherefore, it must needs be an ainfinite batonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the cfirst judgment which came upon man must needs have dremained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more. Now let your mind dewll on “infinite atonement. “ for a moment. Seeing how the resurrection and the atonement are closely coupled, I got the idea that among other things this infinite atonement can also refer to all the things that can possibly go wrong with the body. Now, if Christ had to be baptized in order to fulfill all righteousness then it is obvious to me that it not ok to say, “Oh, he doesn’t need to be baptized because he is perfect.” The Christ’s baptism had to exist; justice demanded it. In the same vane, if Christ is to take upon him the infirmities of his people then they (everything that can go wrong with the body) must exist and if they must exist, then we must suffer them. Thank goodness we don’t have to suffer them all in one person. Sorry. I have to go. Conference is coming on. But you can see where I am going

Whatever this verse may or may not suggest, all who receive and keep all the temple ordinances/covenants will in fact receive all the blessing of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Heavenly Father is way more inclusive than exclusive so I would say it doesn't matter if you are a literal descendant or not. In trying to be succinct and precise it is not my intent to come across as dogmatic nor do I wish do dampen your wonderful searching mind. As you probably know, Abraham 2:11 is part of the Abrahamic covenant which forms a framework or pattern in which the Father will use to covenants with all of his children. This same format was used to covenant with Adam and we could well call it the Adamic covenant. This same format was used to covenant with Israel at Sinai and with David later on. Just for fun read Psalms 89:20-34 which contains the Davidic covenant and see if you can see the Abrahamic covenant pattern in there. I try ( I say try because I sometimes can’t remember them all) to remember the 4 or 5 “P”s to remember the Abrahamic covenant: Priesthood, posterity, prosperity, protection, promised land and there may be more that I have forgotten for the moment. Again, Heavenly Father does not want to exclude anyone, but we must qualify ourselves for them.

Since you used the “S” word (speculate) I have no answers, but I can only speak how my own understanding of these verses has changed over time and that may not feed into the questions that you have raised. Upon my first reading of verse 22 years ago, being self centered as I am, I wondered if I were among the group that God showed Abraham. Then in verse 23 I read “These I will make my rulers” and at that I felt I was not included. Later on as I had the opportunity to have the temple experience I began to realize that the group could have been bigger than I first thought and I could have been included. But now, you have so precisely shown that there was a select group out of the noble and great ones who were good and I once again find myself excluded and I am all depressed again. No… just kidding. If there is anyone suffering self doubt about themselves or about their possible performance in the pre-existence let me say – it doesn’t matter. When you made it here to earth the slate was wiped clean. If you live the principles of the gospel and keep your covenants you are now noble and great in the eyes of your Heavenly Father and in due time you will receive all that the Father hath. As to yourself, don’t look back, just look forward and be happy with the possibilities that are yours. As to the question “I wonder who and where these other noble and great ones were” It seems to me that there just isn’t enough data to come up with a satisfactory answer.

JosephP this is an interesting subject, and like many gospel subjects there are little clues spread all over the place and no complete definition is had in one place. My take on it goes like this, but others can find more things that I miss: Alma 40:6 6 Now there must needs be a space betwixt the time of death and the time of the resurrection. The space betwixt death and resurrection has different names, but overall we sometimes refer to it as the spirit world where the spirits of all men dwell after death and before the resurrection. Sometimes the place is called spirit prison because disembodied spirits cannot gain a fullness of joy while separated from the physical bodies until the resurrection (D&C 93:33-34). So the feeling is that the whole spirit world is a spirit prison because: Doctrine and Covenants 138:50 50 For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage. The spirit world is divided into two places; a place for the righteous and a place for the wicked. The place of the wicked we refer to as Hell. See John 23: 19 – on. The rich man was separated from Abraham and Lazarus. While Christ was in the tomb he visited the spirit world; see 1Peter 3 – 4 th chapters and He bridged the gulf between the two places. But we have the understanding that only the righteous can cross back and forth. Sorry, I can’t immediately find a reference to that concept. But we know that: Doctrine and Covenants 138:30 30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. We can see here that Hell is referred to as darkness. Multiple names for the same place will lead to confusion, but that is how it is. The entire spirit world is a temporary place and will be emptied by the end of the resurrection: Revelation 20:13 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 2 Nephi 9:12 12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel. After the resurrection comes the final judgment; 2 Nephi 28:23 22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance. 23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment. Sometimes people refer to this endless torment as hell or outer darkness so it is possible to be confused as to which place some people are talking about. Revelation 20:12 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. I hope this helps

John 5: 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. Isaiah 24: 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit (hades or hell), and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. Isaiah was not only called to preach to the living but to the dead also just as Christ did. Isaiah 61: 1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim iliberty to the captives (spirit prison), and the opening of the prison (i.e. spirit prison) to them that are bound; note: The phrase "acceptabel year of the Lord", and "The acceptable day of the Lord" in other scriptures is a reference to the attonment. 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord (atonement), and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; Isaiah prophysing about Christ bringing the captive spirits out of spirit prision: Isaiah 42: 6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. (two references to spirit prision) The early Christians also taught this doctrine. Eusebius in the 1st centry worte in his Ecclesiastical History vol 1 pg 47 "And I (Christ) made a congregation of living men amongst his dead men, and I spake with them by living lips: because my word shall be void: and those who had died ran towards me: and they cried and said, Son of God, Have pity on us, and do with us according to thy kindness, and bring us out from the bonds of darkness: and open to us the door by which we shall come out to thee. For we see that our death has not touched thee. Let us also be redeemed with thee: for thou art our redeemer. And I heard their voice: and my name I sealed upon their heads: for they are free men and they are mine."

Bruice R McConkie: ("The Probationary Test of Mortality," Address given at Univ. of Utah, Jan. 10, 1982, p. 11; See JD 1:6)

Evidently they were last seen headed west into Arkansas on the backs of 6 noble braves in 1830. This appears to me to have been a "trail of tears" kind of thing and Pickett didn't furnish any information on the plates final repository.

In Albert James Pickett’s History Alabama is recorded an account of Creek Indians that possessed metal plates with engravings on them that they considered of secret nature. Albert James Pickett: HISTORY OF ALABAMA. 1759: The Tookabatchas (Tukabatchee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) brought with them to the Tallapoosa some curious brass plates, the origin and objects of which have much puzzled the Americans of our day, who have seen them. 1759 Such information respecting them as has fallen into our possession, will be given. On the 27th July, 1759, at the Tookabatcha Square, William Balsolver, a British trader, made inquiries concerning their ancient relics, of an old Indian Chief, named Bracket, near a hundred years of age. There were two plates of brass and five of copper. The Indians esteemed them so much they were preserved in a private place, known only to a few Chiefs, to whom they were annually entrusted. They were never brought to light but once in a year, and that was upon the occasion of the Green Corn Celebration, when on the fourth day, they were introduced in, what was termed the "brass plate dance". Then one of the high Prophets carried one before him, under his arm, ahead of the dancers -- next to him the head warrior carried another, and then others followed with the remainder, bearing aloft, at the same time white canes, with the feathers of a swan at the tops. Shape of the five copper plates: One a foot and a half long, and seven inches wide; the other four a little shorter and narrower. Shape of the two brass plates: Eighteen inches in diameter, about the thickness of a dollar, and stamped as exhibited upon the face. Formerly, the Tookabatcha tribe had many more of these relics, of different sizes and shapes, with letters and inscriptions upon them, which were given to their ancestors by the Great Spirit, who instructed them that they were only to be handled by particular men, who must at the moment be engaged in fasting, and that no unclean woman must be suffered to come near them or the place where they were deposited. July 27, 1759: Bracket further related, that several of these plates were then buried under the Micco's cabin in Tookabatcha, and had lain there ever since the first settlement of the town; that formerly it was the custom to place one or more of them in the grave by the side of a deceased Chief of pure Tookabatcha blood, and that no other Indians in the whole Creek nation had much sacred relics. * Similar accounts of these plates were obtained from four other British traders, "at the most eminent trading house of all English America." ** The town of Tookabatcha became, in later times, the capital of the Creek nation; and many reliable citizens of Alabama have seen these mysterious pieces at the Green Corn Dances, upon which occasions they were used precisely as in the more ancient days.*** When the inhabitants of this town, in the autumn of 1836, took up the line of march for their present home in the Arkansas Territory, these plates were transported thence by six Indians, remarkable for their sobriety and moral character, at the head of whom was the Chief, Spoke-Oak, Micco. Medicine, made expressly for their safe transportation, was carried along by these warriors. Each one had a plate strapped behind his back, enveloped nicely in buckskin. They carried nothing else, but marched on, marched on, one before the other, the whole distance to Arkansas, neither communicating nor conversing with a soul but themselves, although several thousands were emigrating in company; and walking, with a solemn religious air, one mile in advance of the others. **** How much their march resembled that of the ancient Trojans, bearing off their household gods! Another tradition is, that the Shawnees gave these plates to the Tuckabatchas, as tokens of their friendship, with an injunction that they would annually introduce them in their religious observances of the new corn season. But the opinion of Opothleoholo, one of the most gifted Chiefs of the modern Creeks, went to corroborate the general tradition that they were gifts from the Great Spirit. ***** It will be recollected that our aborigines, in the time of De Soto, undertook the use of copper, and that hatchets and ornaments were made of that metal. The ancient Indians may have made them, and engraved upon their faces hieroglyphics, which were supposed to be Roman characters. An intelligent New Englander, names Barent Dubois, who had long lived among the Tookabatchas, believed that these plates originally formed some portion of the armor or musical instruments of De Soto, and that the Indians stole them, as they did the shields, in the Talladega country, and hence he accounts for the Roman letters on them. We give an opinion, but leave the reader to determine for himself -- having discharged our duty by placing all the available evidence before him. * Adair's "American Indians," pp. 178-179. ** Adair's "American Indians" p. 179. *** Conversations with Barent Dubois, Abraham Mordecai, James Moore, Capt. William Walker, Lacklan Durant, Mrs. Sophia McComb, and other persons who stated that these plates had Roman characters upon them, as well as they could determine from the rapid glances which they could occasionally bestow upon them, while they were being used in the "brass plate dance." **** Conversations with Barent Dubois. ***** Conversations with Opothleoholo in 1833.

My wife found the reference to the Indian copper plates. So as not to hi-jack this thread I will create a new thread.

As to the plates - I found one mention so far at Native American Netroots:: The Green Corn Ceremony This one says nothing about writing, but the one I remember did mention writing.

A few years ago while my wife was searching out some of her Cherokee roots she came across a description of the Green Corn Dance or Green Corn Ceremony. Several of the South East Indian tribes have such a ceremony it seems. This particular account dated around the early 1800s if I recall correctly, mentioned that the ceremony took place near an earthen mound. At the end of the ceremony that they held once a year, the chief entered the mound and brought forth some metal plates that had writing on them that no one could any longer read. I tried to google up this account but couldn’t find it so just chalk it off as hearsay unless my wife can re-find it again. But, since writing on plates is a major theme of the Book of Mormon, I would think that something like that would spark some interest from others and excitement from us if it were found in these days.

Has anyone on this thread tried to make the case that dark matter is really refined spiritual matter? They can weigh it on a galactic scale, but they can't see it nor are there any earthly instruments that can detect it so far. Just curious.

Prisonchaplain I appreciate your insights and realize the churning in your stomach you must be feeling when reading on this subject. We have a scripture that says: D&C 131: 1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; 2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; 3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it We have no scripture in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, or Pearl of Great Price that specifically states that Christ was or is married. People have used various scriptures to imply that He must be married because marriage is among our core beliefs. I will give one example of how we can imply that Christ is married. This implication is not as far as I know considered Mormon Doctrine. It is only me making an inference. D&C 132 is one of our primary scriptures relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant. Verse 7 of D&C 132 does not mention marriage specifically but the verse is in the context of marriage. 7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead. Now, this verse has a large and confusing parenthetical insertion that if we take out we could read this verse like this 7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, … are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead. If what I have done is not misleading then we can ask, if covenants (the first one mentioned) are of no efficacy, virtue or force IN and AFTER the resurrection, then when are they efficacious? The only thing left is BEFORE. That is to say a person has to complete the covenant of marriage before they are resurrected. And we are still in compliance with Matthew 22:30 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. So, now we make an inference and say that Christ must be married. As far as I know it is not doctrinal. As Mormons we can look forward to further light and knowledge on the subject in the due time of the Lord. But I think we can agree that Christ is and always has been in full compliance with all of God the Father’s commandments.

I came in late on this thread, but I did find that President Kimball’s Miracle of Forgiveness is on line in PDF format. In Google type in “kimball miracle of forgiveness pdf “ The quote from Miracle of Forgiveness has no page number but this is the quote: ... The woman's accusers were "convicted by their own conscience"; shamed and in disgrace they slunk away. ... They knew themselves to be unfit to appear either as accusers or judges. ... "When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."8 2 Note that the Lord did not forgive the woman of her serious sin. He commanded quietly, but forcefully. "Go, and sin no more." Even Christ cannot forgive one in sin. The woman had neither time nor opportunity to repent totally. When her preparation and repentance there complete she could hope for forgiveness, but not before then.