Irishcolleen
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Posts posted by Irishcolleen
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Grace/faith vs. works.
The reality is that we are not too far apart on this issue either. But Mormon and non-Mormon culture tends to get in the way of that agreement.
The scripture in Ephesians is similar to a scripture in 2 Nephi (BoM). The BoM scripture is similar to v. 8 with the additional phrase "after all we can do".
Mormons tend to misinterpret this to mean that we do as much as we can do to earn it and the atonement picks up the rest. This is false. In fact Pres. Dieter F. Uchdort (current counselor of the first presidency) recently gave an address where he emphasized "it is important to recognize that AFTER does not equal BECAUSE OF."
I have given several lessons in local priesthood and Sunday School meetings and asked the question:
Yes, or no. Are we saved by grace? No additions or modifications. Are we saved by grace?
The responses were interesting.
1st class: uhm. after all we can do... (Nope sorry no modifications or additions. Thank you for playing.). Lots of humming and hawing. Eventually the patriarch spoke up. YES.
2nd class: hmmm. Yeeess??
3rd class. YES. (wow, that was fast. This class was very well versed in the scriptures and the gospel).
4th class. uhm.... (no one answered in a reasonable time, so I answered for them. Yes.).
It is important to use the right words to specifically state what is meant by this.
It is Christ's atonement alone that brings us salvation and exaltation. Nothing we do EARNS our reward. But we are "required" to do certain things such as make and keep covenants, obey commandments, have a mighty change of heart, etc. Nevertheless, none of these things earns salvation or exaltation.
Here is a paraphrasing of a parable I made up to illustrate the point:
I've fallen and I can't get up.
I'm in a deep pit and I can't climb out.I call for help.
The Lord drops a rope that is tied to Himself at the top. He tells me to tie it around myself and start climbing.
I do as he says.
I get to the top and I see the Lord extending His hand to bring me up and out.
I'm saved.
At no time would any reasonable or sane person in this situation EVER claim that they got out on their own merits (looking at the fact that they climbed up the rope themselves). No such person would ever credit the tying or the rope itself as the savior. No one would ever give credit or praise to such things.
Were they required? Yes. We needed the rope. Climbing was required. But these are not the things that saved us.
The reasonable and sane person would only give credit for the save to one person -- the Lord. And they'd feel a debt they could never repay.
The rope is the commandments and covenants we've made through the power of the atonement. The tying is making such covenants and performing certain ordinances. The climbing is the constant effort to learn, grow, improve, and enduring to the end.
All these "requirements" as important as they are, will not have the power to save us without the Lord first providing the rope and keeping the rope firm at the top through His matchless power.
That's where the difference is. We believe if we yell for help in the pit the Lord lifts us up, instead of throwing a rope. Another analogy I have seen is we across a great chasm. We can't build a bridge long enough to cross the chasm. So, Christ is the bridge between the side we are on and eternal life. We simply believe the the bridge will hold and cross it (faith).
If I am understanding LDS doctrine as you have explained it, Christ would give you what you need to build the bridge across instead of being the bridge.
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I'll interject another (I believe, related) question. What is the position of your particular faiths on salvation by works vs grace?
I know that Catholics place a big importance on the sacraments (works).
I also had Pentecostal friends who said something about how speaking in tongues was necessary (?) to be saved. Is that right? Does that qualify as works?
Many of those whom I call evangelicals don't believe works has anything to do with it, even to the point that if you believe you're going to in any way "earn your way to heaven" you're obviously a heretic or an apostate or whatever.
I believe that salvation is by faith alone, (Eph 2:8-9). The Bible says there is none righteous and that all our works are filthy rags. God's standard of righteousness is perfect holiness, in actions, thought and our hearts. The only one who has met that standard is Christ. That is why He was the only one who could be a sacrifice to pay for our sin. The only righteousness I have is what has been imputed to me through Christ (Phil 3:9, Gal. 2:16). If salvation was by works, God would owe it to me based on my performance. It would be wages, not a gift (Rom 11:6).
This does not mean I thinks works are unimportant. Works are more effective at leading people to Christ that words. My faith without works will produce nothing- essentially dead, not reproducing, not growing, not working. My works are motivated out of love for God (most of the time. I am far from perfect and sometimes my works are based on selfish motives), rather than a desire to secure my position in heaven. Christians who are not maintaining works are an unhappy lot. I think they are like the type that hang out in anti-mormon web sites picking fights with the LDS. They just want to argue instead of showing their faith. They are so consumed with being right that they forget to be righteous.
As to whether people are heretics who think works are needed for salvation- well, I'll leave that one up to God. He is the only one who knows the heart. I have heard Mormons that clearly have a testimony of faith in Christ and I have seen confused Baptists trying to earn their standing before God and vice/versa. All I can say is that Christ completely changed my life, my heart, my soul. I know how He has saved me and I will be eternally grateful for how He has worked in my life.
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One good thing about the LDS religion is that they emphasize modesty without pushing to the extreme of frumpiness. Most LDS women dress in a very classy manner from what I have seen. When a Baptist preacher teaches on modesty it seems guaranteed that many of the ladies will take to wearing denim jumpers and turtlenecks. Ugh!!! My girls frequent LDS owned clothing stores online because they are modest and pretty.
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Please elaborate.
(I'm assuming you are not LDS. If I'm wrong, please forgive me.) We also do not believe that "resurrection" and "eternal life" are the same thing, but they are only related by chronolog: one must be resurrected before he can be granted eternal life.
What we believe that seems to differfrom your words is that "eternal life" and "immortality" are different, the second being a superset, as it were, of hte first: i.e., not all immortals have eternal life, but all those with eternal life are immortal.
Section 19 of our Doctrine and Covenants explains that "Eternal" is one of God's names. In the scriptures, therefore, "eternal", as an adjective, describes those things that pertain to God: Eternal punishment is punishment from God, eternal life is a life like God's, etc.
Lehi
I think differences in our terminology can cause confusion when we try to communicate theology. To an evangelical, salvation and eternal life go hand in hand and are referred to as the same thing. In regards to universal salvation, my thinking on this came from LDS.org's Gospel Topics section on Salvation:
Salvation from Physical Death. All people eventually die. But through the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected—saved from physical death. Paul testified, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). In this sense, everyone is saved, regardless of choices made during this life. This is a free gift from the Savior to all human beings. https://www.lds.org/topics/salvation?lang=eng
An Evangelical does not consider this (saved from physical death) to be "salvation". Being resurrected to eternal torment in the lake of fire is not considered a "gift" to us.
I'm not saying this to disparage your beliefs. I'm just trying to point out the differences in our theology so we have a better understanding of where each of us is coming from.
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I am glad God does not reveal everything about the hereafter. I think it would be like opening a birthday present before my birthday. What I do know is that God's creation on earth is pretty amazing, even if it is marred by sin. I practically hyperventilate we we drive in the mountains, when I see waves crashing, and when I see the fall trees. Playing under a waterfall or just in a river (favorite Virginia pastimes) makes me squeal like an excited little kid.
1 Cor 2:9 says, "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."
So, I know it's going to be amazing! I just have to wait to open it!
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I asked this in the other thread, but thought I would throw it here too. Is the resurrection universal, or is it tied to salvation?
All people will be resurrected. But the saved and the righteous from the OT, and those who are saved during the tribulation will be resurrected to eternal life in the presence of God. They have their names written in the book of life. Unbelievers will be resurrected and as their names are not found in the book of life, they will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity.
That is why we don't believe in universal salvation. We believe that resurrection and eternal life are different things.
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I know that, but I'm wanting to know more about what non-LDS believe compared to what we believe. If they believe Jesus had the same body then as he does now, that's a significant difference in theology. It would also affect the "only begotten" doctrine.
I believe that Jesus has always been God (part of the Triune God) from the beginning. There was never a time when He wasn't God. He was pre-incarnate, incarnate and resurrected in a glorified body. Here is a useful article from an evangelical perspective:
http://www.valleybible.net/AdultEducation/ClassNotes/TheologySurvey/Christ/PreincarnateChrist.pdf
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PC,
Without LDS theology about the nature of God some things become confusing to me. One of the biggest ones is what's the deal with Jesus's body? We know his body served the purpose of allowing him to come teach us, suffer and die for us, and to conquer death. But, is there a reason for the body now? Does Jesus still reside in a body now and will he always? If Jesus didn't have a body before but has one now, how does this fit with the teaching that God never changes (incidentally, an argument others use to dismiss LDS theology)?
"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory," 1 Cor 15:53-54
Christ's physical body, which was subject to death, put on the imperishable and immortal aspects of the spiritual body. It is a spiritual, immoral body- it can't die again, it can walk through walls, it can instantly appear in one place and then another. Yet it can still eat and Christ's has the wounds from the nail prints as a reminder of the gift He gave us. I don't think this represents a change in an unchangeable God, because the OT has several accounts of the pre-incarnate Christ appearing, such as in Daniel 3:25.
If it was just Spirit, and physical body was left behind, there wouldn't have been victory over death, resurrection and hope. One day we will be resurrected in a immortal, imperishable body like Christ's. I imagine I might spend the first few "days" of eternity walking through walls just for the novelty of it. :)
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We start with this Eternal Law - No unclean thing can be with the Father.
And - God is both Perfectly Just and Perfectly Merciful.
Next - What makes one a God is perfect unity with the Will that is God's. To be God, one has to FREEly exercise his will and choose good.
Next - to exercise free will, one must be given the choices of Good and Evil. One cannot know Light unless he knows what is Dark. One cannot know Good unless he knows what is bad. He has to experience opposition and then act upon it. Because God loves us, He wants us to have all that He has. He wants us to be God... He wants us to have knowledge of good and evil and choose to align our will to God's.
Again - no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God. Sin makes us unclean... So the price for Sin is Death (Eternal Separation from God). Because we have to choose on our own free will without God choosing for us, we are then in a precarious position to choose wrong because we still lack knowledge (just like a baby would eventually fall before he can learn to walk). We are then destined for death - eternal separation - unless somebody would pay that price to be the one to die instead of us.
So, you say... Well, God should have mercy on us and just forgive us when we sin. If that's the case, then God ceases to be God because He ceases to be Perfectly Just.
So you say... Well, God should just demand justice and leave those who sin die, to be separated from Him for all eternity... He ceases to be God then too because there is no way a spirit lacking knowledge can avoid choosing wrong things... God then ceases to be Perfectly Merciful.
Christ then offered Himself to die for our sins so that God remains Perfectly Just and Perfectly Merciful - He remains God. Christ is the only one that is qualified to pay the price for our sin because He is God (he can't eternally be separated from God because he is God) and he has no sin (one can't die for somebody when he himself is dead). So that, at the crucifixion, Christ died for us - he got completely separated from the Father (Father, why have you abandoned me?)... This spiritual death of an innocent paid the price of all our sins committed due to a lack of knowledge.
You almost sound Evangelical! :)
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Glad she remained pure before marriage, but eew! The idea of giving anyone a certificate saying they looked up may privates and what they found is just too much information- and especially weird to share it with dear old dad.
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We used to give out tracts with Halloween candy. Big candy bars, because if you are going to leave a tract with Halloween candy, it had better be big. Now, where we live in VA, there are few sidewalks and even fewer streetlights. SO most people go to fall fests or trunk or treating. Our church had a great Fall-fest with bouncy houses, games, hayrides and a bonfire. It was so much fun! Even for the adults!
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I'm not a Mormon, so maybe it's wrong for me to post here. But, it seems garments are hot and uncomfortable. Wouldn't a necklace you wore all the time be just as good of a reminder of covenants than undergarments? If you need to wear them to be "in good standing" does that ever make you feel resentful? I don't think I could stand it. But then, if the "girls" were smaller, I'd probably go braless.
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Actually, at the triple point, water can indeed exist in all three phases or states simultaneously. (The triple point of water is at 0.01 °C and 611.7 Pa, which coincidentally is approximately the temperature and pressure of a warm day on the surface of Mars.)
Ok, you just blew my mind. I never knew that. Now I'm ready for Jeopardy! :)
- Blackmarch and Vort
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Satan as a creation is your faith tradition ... for LDS Satan is a Son and brother ...although he has rebelled and rejected everything the Father could have given him.
Which, for both of us is sad. If anyone knew what God has given them they would embrace and not reject Him. Today I needed encouragement for a job interview. While I was praying for God for assurance, I got a wonderful answer to prayer. The sunlight hit the diamond in my engagement ring and it reflected a perfect heart right by me in the car. (the stone is heart shaped) I have only seen the reflection being distorted. It was like God was telling me He loved me. How can people reject Him???
- Just_A_Guy and Sunday21
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Yes but not the way you describe... As stated prior we believe all humans are sons and daughters of God. Even those that rebelled and don't get a mortal body (like satan). Everything else (the world, animals, etc) are creations for use by God and his children.
Like I said, it was an imperfect analogy. Your explanation explains your belief well- Satan is a creation intended to have a body, but didn't get one because of rebellion. We'll have to discuss angels at a different time. It is interesting to learn about the differences and similarities.
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I've had threats of violence leveled against me simply for being Mormon.
Some of the people who were most vocal in their hatred for me were self-identified "Good Christians".
I am sorry you experienced that. It was very wrong. Hatred is not a good tool for evangelizing and they will answer to God. Not all Christians are like that.
- Jane_Doe and theSQUIDSTER
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What estradling75 said basically.
Yeah, that is a very good explanation. It does seem to say that Satan is "cut from the same cloth" as Christ- which would offend Evangelicals. We Evangelicals want to be like God, but tend to get huffy when anyone suggests they can "be gods". To us it seems to dishonor God. But, to the LDS, it speaks of eternal promise.
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I learned something today. I just found out why so many people find premortal existance and the whole we are all brothers and sisters so offensive. Even knowing both positions, I had never put the two and two together as to why people would react so negatively.
Why? What did you figure out about the positions?
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Out of curiosity, do the LDS distinguish between being a creator and a father? In my Baptist experience, I would say the Father created Satan, an angel who fell because of rebellion. And I would say Christ is the Father's begotton son- He calls Him Son, He was given a body like ours,etc...
Kinda like, I created a crocheted sweater, but it is a creation, not a child. Not a perfect analogy, but best I can come up with.
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I rather thought that a testimony was something that was supposed to inspire and edify.
"I'd like to bear my testimony that I know I'm supposed to pay my tithing."
Very inspiring. See what I mean. I don't do it grudgingly and I make no complaints and have absolutely no problems paying it. But I don't really feel anything inspiring or edifying about doing so.
If my friend asked me to invest his money for a while. Then, later, he asks for it back. I go and get it and bring it back to him. There was no complaint about it. I have no problems with giving him back his money. But I'm certainly not changed by it.
So, what is it I'm missing about this?
Well, I think faith, like, love is word of action. You can know your gifts honor God and do it happily without feeling all warm and fuzzy about it. We act in love when we truly love- even without "romantic" feelings. We can act in faith without feeling we are overcome by any emotion. Not everything has to be a experience with deep emotional reactions in order for you to have a testimony of it.
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2 Corinthians 9 says, "6But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver"
So to me the question is, what can we give cheerfully? Will God honor giving that is done without a willing heart? Does giving that is treated like a mandatory payment please God compared with giving that is an expression of love and gratitude?
We should gladly give. God gave His only begotten Son to be a sacrifice for our sin. We can never repay what our sin cost. So, out of gratitude we should give generously and sacrificially with a willing heart. If we can't give cheerfully we need to examine ourselves to see why not. Is it that we have a legitimate financial need that means we can't give over a certain amount? Is it that our priorities are out of whack? Is it that our relationship with God is lacking?
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When we lived in Illinois we had a very dignified and modest Sunday school teacher. it was kinda funny, because whenever there was a hint of sex in the weekly curriculum, he would say he was sick and ask my husband to teach the class. Whenever people saw my husband at the podium they knew the lesson was about sex.
My hubby did end up teaching the classes on Song of Solomon, which we believe picture the love of Christ for the church, God's love for Israel (as Prison chap. said) as well marital love.
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I have been taking an income tax course. There are a few mistakes that are common. I wanted to share this one because so many people get tripped up by it, according to the IRS.
Thousands of filers miss out on all the education tax credits they are eligible for! This is because IRS Form 8863 is poorly worded. Line 23 seems to say (but it doesn't) that if your child has taken the American Opportunity Credit or the Hope Credit in the past four years they are not eligible to take it again. The American Opportunity Credit (AOC) can be taken for 4 years as long as the student is an undergrad. The form says "any 4 years" not "any of the 4 years". Understanding this can save you hundreds of dollars.
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I'm so sorry about you having Lupus. That's horrible.
I must confess, I know very little about it but I DO know it's incredibly debilitating. I think it's an auto-immune disease, but is it?
But I love how you named your umbrella!
Lupus is an auto-immune disease. We lupies tend to make antibodies to our own DNA and fun stuff like that. Praise God, I have about a mild case as can be had, so it's not too debilitating. Right now I just have a bad rash under my nose and my wrist in a splint because of bad inflammation. The only time mine was life threatening was during my pregnancies. Most of the time it is a non-issue as long as I take care of myself. I did spend too many days at the beach this summer and I am paying for it. I kinda think it was worth it though. :)
What will post-resurrection life be like?
in Christian Beliefs Board
Posted · Edited by Irishcolleen
For me it wasn't easy at all. I am a control freak with trust issues. I get scared of failure when I am not the one making things happen. Group projects are hell for me because I don't like to depend on anyone. Learning to trust God is something I do on a daily basis. Dying to self and trusting God was/is the hardest ting I have ever done/am doing. I have trusted Him for my salvation and I am working on trusting His will for my life everyday.
BTW, I do like your analogy. It does work better than the bridge, even if we differ on the details of how we get up.