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SpiritDragon last won the day on January 2 2019

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  1. Thanks so much for this, I had somehow missed it, but really appreciate it and thought it deserved more than a mere reaction click!
  2. Thank you for your thoughts. It's a different perspective than I get from reading the same things and that is largely what I came asking for. Much appreciated.
  3. That's an excellent insight. Certainly a very plausible reading.
  4. @Just_A_Guy I doubt, you're at risk of being thought apostate. Me on the other hand - I'm sure many wonder, and they may be right.
  5. In response to examples of others seeing the premortal Christ let me share the following, which is by no means an exhaustive list: Abraham sees the Lord on at least these two occasions: Genesis 12:7, 17:1 It is strongly insinuated that even his wife/concubine Hagar sees the Lord in Gen 16:13 Jacob sees the lord in Gen 32:30 Perhaps most well known is Moses seeing the Lord in Exodus 33 and greater detail in Moses 1 Isaiah sees the premortal Christ in Isaiah 6 Amos sees the Lord in Amos 9:1 David sees the Lord: Psalm 63:2 Leaving the OT to the BOM we have numerous other examples in Lehi, Nephi, Jacob and I'm sure more if I were to really dig into it. Naturally, these post date the visit to the Brother of Jared, but they are encounters with the premortal Lord. Also as shared in the opening post, is the strong messaging that Enoch not only saw the Lord, but walked with Him 365 years continually before His face which does predate the Brother of Jared and certainly implies faith and access to the Lord comparable to that of the Brother of Jared. I realize the details of these experiences aren't elucidated to the same detail as the account in the Book of Ether, and I'm not beholden to the idea that every meeting with the Lord either via physical eyes or in vision are the same magnitude, but I'd like you @CV75to further expound upon your assertion that it goes beyond quickening, transfiguration etc. If others see that he has the form of a man, how are they not seeing what the Brother of Jared saw?
  6. Are you looking for only examples prior to the Brother of Jared in historical context, or any such experience among prophets/individuals in Christ's premortal period?
  7. Hey everyone, I'm wondering what thoughts others have on what could be considered the absolutist nature of the statement in Ether 3 that no one prior to the Brother of Jared had faith to see God. I want to be clear that I'm not trying to create any sort of attack situation against the Book of Mormon, as I believe it to be true - instead I'm trying to simply get other's thoughts to help me work some things out that I'm thinking on, and because I have children I'm always looking for concise and accurate information to help them with as they have questions and while honest, the answer, "I don't know" just doesn't seem to be a faith promoting response from my perspective. So digging into this, here is the passage from Ether 3 in question: My primary wonderance is how this can be that he is the first. I've often just left it as being a matter of him living way back.... but still Adam surely walked with god in the garden (perhaps doesn't apply as being prior to the Fall) Cain seems to have conversed with the Lord (not necessarily seeing him, but still interesting and speaking to the fact that his killing of Abel was more than simple murder, but a covenant with Satan leading him to perdition - a state seemingly reserved for those who have sinned against the greater light, possibly only for those who have had their calling and election sure and chosen a different path anyway) and Enoch walked with God as did Noah, the former being taken up without tasting death along with a full city. These are all events prior to the tower of Babel saga. Perhaps, I'm reading too much into things, but it seems to me that the brother of Jared was clearly not the first to witness the Lord. I would wonder if perhaps a distinction would be made that he was the first to see Him with mortal eyes, and not in vision, but in the Doctrine and Covenants it seems pretty clear that Enoch definitely beheld the Lord: One possibility that I see, is that I've always created a false understanding of this to be a chronological event that no one before has seen the Lord in the form of his mortal body while yet in the spirit prior to this event, when perhaps that is not actually what the scripture in Ether says at all. It says never has the Lord shown himself unto MAN, not that he hasn't shown himself unto individual men/women. This seems to be in keeping with Moses interaction with the Lord that is seemingly contradictory where in the same chapter it states that Moses spoke with God face to face, but also that no man shall see his face and live. This is clarified better in the JST/Inspired version: So I guess my thoughts are that the Brother of Jared experience has less to do with timing and more to do with the class of individual in which case the word "man" is being used generically as a class of those in the fallen state of natural man being an enemy to god, and never have (or will) these have the faith to meet Jesus in the flesh, but there are those such as Enoch and the Brother of Jared who essentially ascended to a higher plane (think Isaiah's spiritual ladder elucidated by Gileadi's works where Jacob/Israel are a class of believers that still have much work to do in repenting and truly turning their lives over to the Lord, but Zion/Jerusalem refers to a different class of people of who are covenant keeper). This allows for both the situation where any number of individuals could see God prior to the Brother of Jared's sacred experience and yet the statement that NEVER BEFORE has MAN still apply in truth.
  8. Just a potentially interesting article to throw on concerning horses in pre-spanish america: https://indiancountrytoday.com/news/yes-world-there-were-horses-in-native-culture-before-the-settlers-came
  9. Hi Fether, I don't believe the term is used largely by others, but I've come across the concept in studies of environment and behavior that may match what you're looking for. I call it the proximity impulse. Basically, when something we desire is close and easy to access we are more likely to engage in the desire. A classic example is a study called the Office Candy Dish, where visible, open, candy dishes in close proximity to workers leads to more candy consumption than closed off opaque candy dishes or those that are further away. Thus, just as the candy was not needed before seeing it and being able to grab it, The black hole video wasn't needed until it showed up and became available. I do believe some of these are compounded by an aspect of the fear of missing out as well though, because unless you write down the video name and allot a time to come back later part of you realizes that by not watching it now you may never do so. I think the same can be said of obsessing over responding to a question, except in this case it's an added level of instant gratification as well. By going to sleep and responding in the morning there is delayed gratification in being the one with the answer and the supposed prestige it may bring. There may also be an element of challenge in responding to a text that may be perceived at some level as creating an unsafe environment that needs to be resolved before sleep. Anyways, hopefully there's something helpful in there for you.
  10. Sounds like you've watched this episode before
  11. This is one of those stories that I'm not 100% sure is real, but I picked it up on my mission. Sharing horror stories of things that happened (particularly in testimony meetings) when we had investigators visiting, and most of us were sharing stories of weird and/or "deep" doctrine being shared that caused us some explaining to do with our investigators, one of my fellow missionaries shared the following story: While sitting there listening to a sister's remarks, this is essentially the dialogue that follows - Sister (at pulpit sobbing): ... this always happens to me, I start to get emotional and can't speak clearly. I'm such a big boob! Bishop (trying to console her, a little too close to the mic): That's alright, sister, the Bishop likes big boobs.
  12. That is terrifying. We all always pose a potential risk of spreading communicable disease, and disease has always been among us. Let's just cede more power to the government to interfere in our lives, yeesh. As for the reference to the prior conversation, I thank you for your input. I'm undecided on where I stand with that issue still and perhaps border on the side of apostasy in my beliefs, so I'll keep those thoughts to myself - although I have formed them through scripture study and some prayer. Either way, I appreciate the apologetic approach and have wrestled with various iterations of how this could be. I suppose, in many ways it comes back to a much earlier conversation (circa 2012ish) wherein I expressed concerns over personal interpretation of spiritual answers. It's hard because if I'm supposed to follow personal revelation and follow the prophet and the two don't agree, which is wrong? Either my personal revelation upon which my testimony was originally developed is askew calling in to question the validity of anything moving forward, or something else entirely and I just don't know.
  13. Which is really not that different, I suppose. The idea behind setting up these systems is no doubt still driven by a hope to reach a specific goal. It's not dissimilar from missionary goals being followed up with action items - something that can actually be acted on. Thus we can think of systems as being sets of action items that are focused on to still ultimately attaining a goal, at least if I'm understanding correctly. Perhaps a distinction would be that success is predicated on following the system and not attaining the goal... but at the same time if the end goal is not being attained but the system is being adhered to then it would inform the user that the system is failing, not the user, and thus the system needs to be adjusted. On the other hand, if the system is not being followed, the person needs to figure out why and follow it, but can't blame the system - they have to own up to not following through.
  14. I'm curious about this as well. I've had Atomic Habits on my birthday/Christmas wishlist for a couple years now but it has been overlooked, so I haven't read it yet, but I've heard this concept of systems vs goals before and I'm not sure I see the distinction. Perhaps it's akin to what I would refer to as the difference between behaviour goals and outcome goals. We can't directly control outcomes (i.e. drop xyz pounds, make X sales, etc.) But we can control behaviours (hit the gym, skip the sweets, talk to X people, ask for referrals, etc.) By leveraging behaviours associated with outcomes we move the needle by controlling what we can control. When we also fall short of our behaviour goals we can use these "failures" as good information gathering opportunities to learn what factors contributed to the lack of success one day or why on a different occasion we were successful. When sufficient info is collected it makes it easier to implement strategies to increase the success rate sticking to desired behaviours.
  15. If good data were actually kept on this then the comparison he is looking for would be possible. It should be a simple matter to track what treatments are given to whom and what outcomes happen. I realize that good data is sadly a big ask and definitely too much to wish for in the age of Covid stupidity where any option besides the vaccines is largely dismissed and the vaccines are held on a pedestal they don't deserve. One would think with the epic failures of the vaccines to prevent infection and transmission to the point that they are being touted as merely a tool for reducing more severe outcomes that other treatment options would be welcomed, but instead they are censored and every effort made to suppress data on whether such treatments help while the narrative is to continue to push the failed vaccines as the only way forward.