The Folk Prophet

Without having read the thread or the details of it, but just looking at the question:
Is Faith in Jesus Christ More Important for our Salvation than the Condition of our Hearts?
The simple, plain and obvious answer is yes. Faith in Jesus Christ is more important for our salvation than the condition of our heart.
The reason for Jesus Christ's atonement is EXACTLY because of the guaranteed failure we'll all have in our heart's conditions. It is through faith in Him (and associated repentance) that we are redeemed BY Him, not by ourselves and our condition, status, prowess, etc.,etc.

The home page of the church has a Common questions section and the first question is: Are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Christian?

The answer given: Yes! As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of the World. He loves us all more than we can imagine. We consider ourselves devoted followers of Jesus. While some of our beliefs are distinct, we believe that through His life, ministry, sacrifice, and resurrection, Jesus Christ saves us from sin, suffering, and death.

Without having read the thread or the details of it, but just looking at the question:
Is Faith in Jesus Christ More Important for our Salvation than the Condition of our Hearts?
The simple, plain and obvious answer is yes. Faith in Jesus Christ is more important for our salvation than the condition of our heart.
The reason for Jesus Christ's atonement is EXACTLY because of the guaranteed failure we'll all have in our heart's conditions. It is through faith in Him (and associated repentance) that we are redeemed BY Him, not by ourselves and our condition, status, prowess, etc.,etc.

I believe this is true.
I also believe He is more strict, severe, and harsh than most of us give Him credit for.
Here's my take, for what it's worth.
People pit justice against mercy as if they're opposing forces (not saying you're doing that, just generally). My view has always been that justice encompasses mercy. Justice is equivalent to fairness. God is perfectly just. He is perfectly fair.
The atonement and God's plan for us with it is designed so that God can be just. Perfectly. Without the atonement I don't think God could be perfectly just. With it He can. That's why it was done. That's why it is His plan. In His perfectness he satisfies justice.
I know the scriptures speak of the theoretical, no mercy without the atonement. But I think there's also no justice without the atonement. As if God would send us to earth, give us no way to repent, and then condemn us all. He would not do that. It would not be just. But he also would not do as Satan's plan implied either...save us all regardless. That also wouldn't be just.
Justice will be. Period. There will be no "you deserved this but you're getting that instead". Everyone will get what they deserve*. They will get what they deserve BECAUSE of the atonement. (Of course we're getting into semantics here a bit, because from another view practically no one will get what they deserve. Since by strict law we all deserve the darkest hell.)
Mercy cannot rob justice. It must be PART of justice. Justice must be. God cannot be unfair. Will not be unfair. He won't punish when it isn't deserved*. He won't reward when it isn't deserved (once again "deserved" being a semantically relative term*.)
He made a way for us to escape the condemnation required from our sin. Christ paid that price. Therefore we can repent.
*The way we "deserve" anything is through the conditions set -- which conditions are faith in His name, obedience to His law, and repentance when we transgress that law.
In other words, God will not condemn any who repent... that is his mercy. But he will not save any who do not repent. That is His justice.
So yes, his mercy is greater than we understand. But we cannot and should not think that means that any of us can be saved in our sins. We can and will be saved from our sins if we repent. If we do not repent, we cannot be saved, and no amount of presumed mercy can or will change that.

I believe this is true.
I also believe He is more strict, severe, and harsh than most of us give Him credit for.
Here's my take, for what it's worth.
People pit justice against mercy as if they're opposing forces (not saying you're doing that, just generally). My view has always been that justice encompasses mercy. Justice is equivalent to fairness. God is perfectly just. He is perfectly fair.
The atonement and God's plan for us with it is designed so that God can be just. Perfectly. Without the atonement I don't think God could be perfectly just. With it He can. That's why it was done. That's why it is His plan. In His perfectness he satisfies justice.
I know the scriptures speak of the theoretical, no mercy without the atonement. But I think there's also no justice without the atonement. As if God would send us to earth, give us no way to repent, and then condemn us all. He would not do that. It would not be just. But he also would not do as Satan's plan implied either...save us all regardless. That also wouldn't be just.
Justice will be. Period. There will be no "you deserved this but you're getting that instead". Everyone will get what they deserve*. They will get what they deserve BECAUSE of the atonement. (Of course we're getting into semantics here a bit, because from another view practically no one will get what they deserve. Since by strict law we all deserve the darkest hell.)
Mercy cannot rob justice. It must be PART of justice. Justice must be. God cannot be unfair. Will not be unfair. He won't punish when it isn't deserved*. He won't reward when it isn't deserved (once again "deserved" being a semantically relative term*.)
He made a way for us to escape the condemnation required from our sin. Christ paid that price. Therefore we can repent.
*The way we "deserve" anything is through the conditions set -- which conditions are faith in His name, obedience to His law, and repentance when we transgress that law.
In other words, God will not condemn any who repent... that is his mercy. But he will not save any who do not repent. That is His justice.
So yes, his mercy is greater than we understand. But we cannot and should not think that means that any of us can be saved in our sins. We can and will be saved from our sins if we repent. If we do not repent, we cannot be saved, and no amount of presumed mercy can or will change that.

Without having read the thread or the details of it, but just looking at the question:
Is Faith in Jesus Christ More Important for our Salvation than the Condition of our Hearts?
The simple, plain and obvious answer is yes. Faith in Jesus Christ is more important for our salvation than the condition of our heart.
The reason for Jesus Christ's atonement is EXACTLY because of the guaranteed failure we'll all have in our heart's conditions. It is through faith in Him (and associated repentance) that we are redeemed BY Him, not by ourselves and our condition, status, prowess, etc.,etc.

Without having read the thread or the details of it, but just looking at the question:
Is Faith in Jesus Christ More Important for our Salvation than the Condition of our Hearts?
The simple, plain and obvious answer is yes. Faith in Jesus Christ is more important for our salvation than the condition of our heart.
The reason for Jesus Christ's atonement is EXACTLY because of the guaranteed failure we'll all have in our heart's conditions. It is through faith in Him (and associated repentance) that we are redeemed BY Him, not by ourselves and our condition, status, prowess, etc.,etc.

Without having read the thread or the details of it, but just looking at the question:
Is Faith in Jesus Christ More Important for our Salvation than the Condition of our Hearts?
The simple, plain and obvious answer is yes. Faith in Jesus Christ is more important for our salvation than the condition of our heart.
The reason for Jesus Christ's atonement is EXACTLY because of the guaranteed failure we'll all have in our heart's conditions. It is through faith in Him (and associated repentance) that we are redeemed BY Him, not by ourselves and our condition, status, prowess, etc.,etc.

That's not what faith means. (Meaning it is more comprehensive)

The home page of the church has a Common questions section and the first question is: Are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Christian?

The answer given: Yes! As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of the World. He loves us all more than we can imagine. We consider ourselves devoted followers of Jesus. While some of our beliefs are distinct, we believe that through His life, ministry, sacrifice, and resurrection, Jesus Christ saves us from sin, suffering, and death.

That's not what faith means. (Meaning it is more comprehensive)

The home page of the church has a Common questions section and the first question is: Are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Christian?

The answer given: Yes! As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of the World. He loves us all more than we can imagine. We consider ourselves devoted followers of Jesus. While some of our beliefs are distinct, we believe that through His life, ministry, sacrifice, and resurrection, Jesus Christ saves us from sin, suffering, and death.

The home page of the church has a Common questions section and the first question is: Are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Christian?

The answer given: Yes! As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of the World. He loves us all more than we can imagine. We consider ourselves devoted followers of Jesus. While some of our beliefs are distinct, we believe that through His life, ministry, sacrifice, and resurrection, Jesus Christ saves us from sin, suffering, and death.

That's not what faith means. (Meaning it is more comprehensive)

The home page of the church has a Common questions section and the first question is: Are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Christian?

The answer given: Yes! As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of the World. He loves us all more than we can imagine. We consider ourselves devoted followers of Jesus. While some of our beliefs are distinct, we believe that through His life, ministry, sacrifice, and resurrection, Jesus Christ saves us from sin, suffering, and death.

I have an admittedly curmudgeonly attitude toward the "Mormons are/aren't Christians" debate. I think it's misguided, ignorant, and useless. If we're being candid, I agree with the Mormon-haters about the use of "Christian" to describe Latter-day Saints; that is, from their point of view, I think their argument holds water.
From a "traditional" point of view, post-Fall of Rome (more like post-AD 150), Christians were those who believed and accepted certain ideas (e.g. the Holy Trinity) and who disbelieved and rejected as heretical certain other ideas (e.g. premortal life). It's been close to 1900 years that Europe and western societies in general have accepted this definition, and by this definition, Latter-day Saints certainly are not Christians. Which I'm perfectly okay with. I worship the true and living God, about whom I am vastly ignorant but I may know some things about him that most who call themselves Christian do not. Whether they think I'm wrong or right has exactly zero bearing on whether I'm actually wrong or right. To them, the term "Christian" means something that doesn't apply to me. Okay by me. Whatever.
The issue is not that I disagree with them. I simply don't care about their point of view. I know perfectly well whom I worship and to whom I pray. If they want to say that I worship A Different Jesus®, let them prattle on. I don't care. The honest ones among them will recognize the true spirit of Christ, and will probably not say such nonsense. As for the rest, they can and will go to hell with the rest of humanity to meet the god they worship, and I'm willing to leave them to their chosen destiny.

Is oxygenation of our blood more important than breathing? The question itself is defective. "Faith in Jesus Christ" and "the condition of our hearts" are not separate or separable phenomena. Faith in Christ determines the condition of one's heart, and the condition of one's heart determines the ability to exercise faith in Christ.
FTR, the answer is "faith in Christ". That is the important determiner. On this point, the scriptures are clear.

It's still a sin to judge wrongfully.
At the risk of sounding like I'm being patronizing, I'll leave these here despite the fact that you're obviously well aware:
"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
"Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment."
"See that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged."
I'm sure we could get into some debates over how these things relate to "jumping to conclusions". I don't disagree that jumping to a conclusion is a reflex. That doesn't make said conclusion right to have jumped to. I think it behooves us to step back and say, "Nope...even though that's my reflex, I'm going to suppress it and CHOOSE be charitable in my unwillingness to presume evil."
The fact that jumping to a conclusion is the natural man thing to do doesn't mean we shouldn't be making every effort to divorce ourselves from those tendencies, especially if we're aware that there's likely bias involved.
And, most importantly, I think that by making such choices and putting in such effort, while turning to the Savior and His atonement, we actually CAN divorce ourselves from those tendencies, and to SHOULD expect that of ourselves.
So I agree. The natural man is.....natural. But we should, and can, put off the natural man, with time, effort, practice, and the help of the Spirit.
It's a deeper subject than "don't judge" of course. Judgement is always deeper than the way people make it out to be. The idea of not judging at all is silly. It's not possible. Every thought, actions, word, etc., requires judgement. There is no neutral. So we should be taking care to not judge wrongly, unfairly, meanly, unkindly, unforgivingly, hatefully, pridefully, etc., etc. PARTICULARLY, when it's a situation of hearsay and rumor.

It.

Specifically that Tim Ballard did what he's being accused of.
Apparently a statement was released. Tim Ballard says he didn't believe it was from the church (apparently it was), because he had spoken to his Stake President and Bishop and neither of them knew anything about it. He's shocked that the church would release a public condemnation of one of its members without even talking to that member's Bishop or Stake President first. Which does, indeed, sound wrong to me too. But, you know....it happens. The church public relations department releasing a condemnatory statement because of news articles containing accusations isn't proof of wrong doing though.
I disbelieve the accusations. We've had all these anti responses to The Sound of Freedom by the leftist news, and then when there are rumors of Tim Ballard running for the Senate to replace Mitt Romney accusations conveniently appear.....in Vice?
Convenient.
Things may escalate. Things may come out that prove it one way or the other. Tim Ballard may secretly be a sexual predator and evil. But until those proofs come out, I'm inclined to disbelieve it.
Assuming he is innocent, I hope the church's response doesn't have the effect of destroying the man and his commitment to the church. He has stated in response that he is faithful and committed. I hope that remains true. Having the church one loves publicly smear them unjustly could be a pretty huge trial of faith. But it happens. The church is made of mortal men who make mortal men mistakes.

I'm a fan of talking about the massive bumpy road before you're actually on it and can't ignore it any more.   
"Mormons have always been huge on the traditional family unit, consisting of a husband, a wife, both of them opposite sex, working together to raise the children.   Although we're big on agency and choice, and acknowledge people sometimes want other things, if you become a Mormon you can expect to be taught what we consider the ideal model.  Folks who don't follow that model are welcome.  We believe everyone is a child of God, and we are big on loving our neighbor.  But we won't be changing our doctrine any time soon to fit the current culture.  Let's read the Proclamation on the Family - that might help answer your questions."
 
"But NT, that'll make 'em run for the hills before they even bother to seek a testimony!  Isn't it better to downplay this coming obstacle until they have a relationship with God, because then He'll help testify of things when it finally dawns on them what we really believe?"
Yeah, it is not a weak counter.   But not doing it now also turns a lot of former members into bitter former members who loudly yell about how they were lied to until baptism, then they really saw for the first time what we were, and the pressure to unlearn and re-think grew tenfold. 
IMO (and I'm not saying I'm right), if we love someone and respect their agency and the spirit of Christ that dwells within them, that includes telling the truth, and allowing them to make their own choices.

Maybe. Maybe. And Maybe.
An awful lot of speculation.

Out of curiosity...why?
I tend to not simply because of the politics. The lefty news has been hardcore after Tim Ballard, Jim Caveziel, and Angel Studios, ever since Sound of Freedom made some waves. And then this. That alone makes it suspect to me.

It.

Specifically that Tim Ballard did what he's being accused of.
Apparently a statement was released. Tim Ballard says he didn't believe it was from the church (apparently it was), because he had spoken to his Stake President and Bishop and neither of them knew anything about it. He's shocked that the church would release a public condemnation of one of its members without even talking to that member's Bishop or Stake President first. Which does, indeed, sound wrong to me too. But, you know....it happens. The church public relations department releasing a condemnatory statement because of news articles containing accusations isn't proof of wrong doing though.
I disbelieve the accusations. We've had all these anti responses to The Sound of Freedom by the leftist news, and then when there are rumors of Tim Ballard running for the Senate to replace Mitt Romney accusations conveniently appear.....in Vice?
Convenient.
Things may escalate. Things may come out that prove it one way or the other. Tim Ballard may secretly be a sexual predator and evil. But until those proofs come out, I'm inclined to disbelieve it.
Assuming he is innocent, I hope the church's response doesn't have the effect of destroying the man and his commitment to the church. He has stated in response that he is faithful and committed. I hope that remains true. Having the church one loves publicly smear them unjustly could be a pretty huge trial of faith. But it happens. The church is made of mortal men who make mortal men mistakes.

It's still a sin to judge wrongfully.
At the risk of sounding like I'm being patronizing, I'll leave these here despite the fact that you're obviously well aware:
"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
"Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment."
"See that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged."
I'm sure we could get into some debates over how these things relate to "jumping to conclusions". I don't disagree that jumping to a conclusion is a reflex. That doesn't make said conclusion right to have jumped to. I think it behooves us to step back and say, "Nope...even though that's my reflex, I'm going to suppress it and CHOOSE be charitable in my unwillingness to presume evil."
The fact that jumping to a conclusion is the natural man thing to do doesn't mean we shouldn't be making every effort to divorce ourselves from those tendencies, especially if we're aware that there's likely bias involved.
And, most importantly, I think that by making such choices and putting in such effort, while turning to the Savior and His atonement, we actually CAN divorce ourselves from those tendencies, and to SHOULD expect that of ourselves.
So I agree. The natural man is.....natural. But we should, and can, put off the natural man, with time, effort, practice, and the help of the Spirit.
It's a deeper subject than "don't judge" of course. Judgement is always deeper than the way people make it out to be. The idea of not judging at all is silly. It's not possible. Every thought, actions, word, etc., requires judgement. There is no neutral. So we should be taking care to not judge wrongly, unfairly, meanly, unkindly, unforgivingly, hatefully, pridefully, etc., etc. PARTICULARLY, when it's a situation of hearsay and rumor.

I think the primary difference (to my thinking) is Tim's claims. I see no reason to judge him as guilty when he claims he's not. I think giving him the benefit of the doubt is the charitable approach. He may be a dirt bag scum con man pervert. But until that comes out concretely, I'll presume he's being honest.
I know it can be read that one must choose between support for Tim or support for the church. I don't think so. I give the benefit of the doubt to both, and will wait and see.... or never know and maintain said benefit of the doubt.
I have no delusions that all members who claim to be "in good standing" are. I also have no delusions that all apostles are and have been perfect and never make poor choices in frustration or anger.
As I've said, in this case the accusations against Tim seem awfully convenient which makes me suspicious. And it strikes me that he's been universally presumed guilty without due process. I may be wrong. That's just how it strikes me.
On the actual accusations re: sexual stuff....it's SO very fishy. Like I get that sometimes someone under cover might need to get into some less than ideal predicaments. And how to balance that with moral cleanliness escapes me. But the accusations, beside being conveniently anonymous are...that he sent pics of himself in his underwear and asked women to shower with him to maintain cover.
REALLY?!?
Pictures in boxers or his tighty-whiteys? (Ooo...sexy....) And the LUDICROUS concept that alone in their hotel room he tried to convince a woman that they had to get naked, even though no one was watching, and shower together? Either he's the dumbest idiot in the world and believed the women to be the dumbest idiots in the world too or something is seriously off here.
Maybe I missed something.