lagarthaaz

A scary movie is not the authority on what "hell" is really like - it's based on writer's imaginings on the topic. Try to see the film for what it is - a carefully constructed set of edited images and sounds designed to scare us. If horror films are making you feel so bad as to think you are destined for "hell" - then it seems they are messing with your psyche. A better option might be to stop watching horror films and use your time to view media that will uplift and fill you with hope, laughter and joy.

What in the world. I should probably get some popcorn too, but...there are so many topics to addess here. I cannot see how a person can support “liberal” practices and claim to believe in the Gospel. Many of the liberal practices of today go against what is taught by the Church. Liberals support: Abortion Full government control of the economy (socialism) Euthanasia Eliminating the right to self-defense (2nd Amendment) Free health care for all Ignore laws on illegal immigration Homosexual marriage Abolish death penalty Protect Social Security at all costs Welfare, lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of welfare Heavy taxation (socialism) www.studentdailynews.com I consider myself "liberal" in many ways, and definitely "believe in the gospel". What in the world is your problem with "free health care for all"? Keep in mind that I live in a country where a free public health system operates alongside private health schemes and hospitals. People have the right to free care, but they also have a choice of taking the private option if they prefer.

I've mentioned before that this sort of thing is rife in my ward where certain people are constantly trying to get church members to buy or invest in schemes and products. Just be prepared to get bitten if you say something negative to 'believers' in the scheme because the person who is trying to sell will be upset with you for sabotaging their sales opportunities. And, those who follow will be upset because they believe they have already used their good judgement and you are just an awful cynic. This happened to me and the salesperson still hates me for it!

Mad sport. Ms Rousey is lucky not to get brain damage out of this. I still can't believe the organisers managed to find 56,000 people to attend the fight in Melbourne - I'd never even heard of these women until they hit our news over the past week or so. I also read that Ms Holmes won $100,000 in prize money. This doesn't seem much considering the same article stated that the UFC "grossed over $9.53 (AUD) million on ticket sales alone which is a stadium gate record." Kinda sweet how they weep and thank god and their trainers for blessing them with a victory after the match.

Hi Jane, yes being married to a non-member and remaining active in the church is indeed doable, but as you've noted, not always easy.

He doesn't care to even look it up - the only reason he read it was because I sometimes check the news and other sites on his computer, and I guess some kind of cookies have tracked my interests. Now he gets 'breaking news' popups that are really meant for me... And yet, he does sometimes read them. When we watched the movie"Inside Out", he told me he read about a Mormon woman who penned an article about how that particular film goes against the principle of free agency. He is also quick to point out any bigotry or misrepresentation of the church and in fact, doesn't understand why so other faiths feel so threatened by us.

Ha, so do the Elders in our ward!

Yes it can be tough raising kids in the gospel alone, but I'm fortunate that my husband doesn't actively try and pull our kids away from the gospel. Although he doesn't encourage them to be involved either. So far I haven't felt like he's 'dragging me down' but I've always been extremely independent and believe it is up to us individually to build our testimony and spiritual strength regardless of who we are married to (or not).

Thanks for the interpretation of the wording of the article...this is a perfect example of how we seem to be very good at loopholes and semantics in certain texts. Most often, everything can have multiple meanings or words aren't at first what they seem to be. I need to remember that when I read and not be so literal. I too know of many women who have fallen away from the church after being married to a non-member, but I also know many who have remained faithful. This also applies to at least a couple of men in my ward I know who married outside the faith. Quite a lot of us in my ward are active and serve in leadership and other callings in the church, we do this while being married to non-members, to less-active members, or while separated or divorced (even after temple marriages). Your husband obviously harbors some negative feelings about your faith and seeks to weaken your faith. If the man you love more than any other on earth is encouraging you to abandon your faith, then what is likely to eventually happen? I think he would be a happy camper if I were to turn my back on the church, although he'd miss his four hours on Sunday where he gets the house to himself while we out , but he never encourages me to do the same or delivers ultimatums. He will help me get copying and other items ready for church, and the main beef he has is when he sees me spending money on items I need for my calling. LDS values underpin many aspects of my marriage, and my non-member husband recognises this.

But they do...September 11, 2001 and the Boston Marathon attacks of 2013 are the most obvious examples of suicide bombers in the USA. That's without even mentioning the regular attacks and shootings by Islamic extremists across the country.

Hi Leah, I hear you on the apparent double standards we see so often in the church, I really do. I struggle with similar thoughts but on a different issue. I admit I was (and still am sometimes), judgmental when I saw people doing and saying certain things that are contrary to our gospel standards. I confided in my bishop who told me 'don't worry about what you can't control in other people or it will drive you crazy. Just focus on your own choices because for you and the Lord, they are all that matter'. I've taken his advice (even though it's taken every ounce of self-control sometimes) and it has become a easier. I hope this hasn't come across as patronising or anything, I'm just sharing what's helped me not to feel so upset when I see church members (especially temple endowed) doing stuff that I feel is REALLY wrong.

My non-member husband told me about a news article he read that lumped the apostasy of gay marriage in with marrying outside the LDS faith ( I won't link it here because it's a garbage site in spite of having almost 1.5 million facebook followers). I told him that wasn't the case, and then of course tried to find the source for the quote in the article. The authors don't provide any references, but use the following quote and imply it comes from BYU: “The steps to apostasy are usually gradual. All members are counseled to guard against all manifestations of personal apostasy. The most frequent causes of apostasy are failure to maintain strict standards of morality, taking personal offense (real or perceived), marrying someone who is of another faith or who is irreligious, neglecting to pray and maintain spirituality or misunderstanding of the teachings of the Church.” It actually comes from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism in the Harold B.Lee Library Digital Collections. The link to this quote is a form of bait and switch, aimed at first condemning the church for its stance against gay marriage, and then implying that a huge population of the church is also 'apostate' if it falls into any of the above categories. The suggestion sure worked on my husband, who pointed it out to me as if it's a revelation I was not aware of. So, what do you think - is marrying outside of the faith a form of apostasy? I'm interested in people's thoughts on this. Hopefully I'm not being too masochistic in posting the question...

Thank you for leading the way, thread boss.

Yep, there are challenges being married to a non-member, but that's the least of our problems really. I agree too that children shouldn't have to feel they need to choose between their parents and the church, but I suspect this is exactly what's going to happen in some situations where the child of gay parents is allowed to attend church with relatives. What a world we are living in where this is even an issue!

Thanks for the exciting trip down Mesopotamian lane, a truly incredible ancient culture that I freely admit I am in awe of. But your analogy between Babylon and our western cultural achievements IS a sobering thought, especially in light of scripture. I used to spend a lot of time reading the Book of Revelation, but stopped because even though I know it is symbolic, it gave me the heebie-jeebies over an end-time that I have zero control over. One example... We are warned that people will find the accomplishments of Babylon incredibly seductive, and most chillingly: And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived...And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. (Revelation 18:23-24). This brings to mind for me the sophistry of certain 'great men' today who deny god's existence and yet are feted and adored by the western world. Will the blood of prophets and saints be shed in the future as a result of this I wonder, and at the very least, does this scripture symbolise persecution of the saints in the end times by our modern day Babylon?

Hi Anatess, don't worry about the 'punishment' comment - it's mostly resolved at this point (if you can be bothered wading through the entire thread you'll see that I had concerns but am mostly ok now I've had some time to think, study and pray). Thanks for the info about taking Communion, it's been a long time since I thought much about Catholicism but I do remember the belief in transubstantiation. I was earlier in the thread, simply recalling my feelings as a young child who had friends who were Catholic, taking First Holy Communion and attending Mass...and how I wanted to be part of it but was told I couldn't because I had not been baptised as an infant into the Catholic faith. I carried that feeling of ostracism around with me for years as a youngster - mostly because of what other children told me. When I read of the new policy my first reaction was that children of gay parents may feel similarly rejected by a religious system they may want to be part of. I suspect this may not be an unusual scenario in the case less-active gay parents who are embraced by their LDS family and may allow their children to attend church, primary and youth activities with extended family members such as grandparents.

I'm always in such diverse wards that being a woman on her own with kids is pretty common place in church, I like to pretend that I don't stand out

For sure when I first read about the new policy I had a knee-jerk reaction (based no doubt in subjective experience) about how it may hurt little children who may be refused baptism even if they express a desire for it. After Pam posted Elder Christoffersen's interview I gained a more objective understanding of the context and reasons underlying the policy. Literate Parakeet was spot on when she said that ultimately this needs to be made a matter of prayer, as well as studying it out in our minds. I certainly don't believe my marriage is sinful (although it's obviously not all I would want as far as being in a temple marriage). I had not heard that comment about marrying outside of the church being apostasy, but I suppose in a loose sense it could be considered as such.

While we are on the topic, my husband who is not a member of the church, raised this issue with me this morning. The article he read was entitled 'Mormon church rejects children of gay couples' (or close to it). I haven't had a chance to read it, but he said that the article stated that people who marry outside the Mormon faith are considered apostate too. Of course then he became annoyed and said "that means that you are considered apostate in your own religion that you work your **s off for". I explained the definition of apostate, and also sent him the link to Elder Christoffersen's interview to show that the policy was rooted in compassion for children and was meant to minimise pain and conflict for families. I haven't read anything about marrying a non-member being considered an act of apostasy... has anyone else?

Yes, of course a child feeling punished does not mean they actually are being punished. But in the mind of the child, it makes no difference. One example - as a child I liked to walk to the local Catholic church and sit at the back during Mass - I loved the ritual and most especially the images of the passion of Christ that adorned the walls. I had friends the same age who took their First Communion and when I asked if I could do that, I was told that because I wasn't born a Catholic, I couldn't take communion at all. Now whether this really was a true policy, I have no idea, but at the time I felt very much ostracised from participating in something I perceived to be very beautiful and comforting, and for many years the feeling of not being quite worthy enough stuck with me. That was my own thinking in reaction to the situation. I do believe that children of gay couples who are denied baptism may have similar feelings, if they are exposed to the teachings of the church through extended family members (active grandparents come to mind, who may take the children to church with parental permission). I agree that it's unlikely a 'practicing homosexual' is doing their best to stay active. I was thinking more along the lines of a couple who have split, or someone who has been on their own and has been trying to repent and become active with children who were born while the relationship was intact.

Thanks Pam for posting the video of Elder Christofferson's response to the the handbook change. It did provide some different perspective, particularly when he said the policy "originates from compassion and a desire to protect children in their innocence"..so as not to place children in a position of conflict with their families while they are young. I've still got some thinking and praying to do though. I imagine myself as a child with a desire to be baptised, but being told no because of the lifestyle of my parents. It would have compounded my feelings of rejection, of feeling 'different' and not considered good enough to be with the 'worthy'.

What I mean by 'punishment' is that if a child of that age has a desire to be baptised, and his or her parents allow their child to attend church, primary, etc, (with active relatives like grandparents, for example), then they will most likely feel punished by having baptism withheld. Someone else in this thread mentioned gay parents who are doing their best to stay 'active' and who support their children actively participating in the church. I would hope there are some exceptions to the new rule in the handbook, to cater for individual situations like this one.

At this point I have not googled any other discussion about this topic so all I have is the information in this thread - but I'm a bit upset right now. I don't want to end up in a huge quagmire of church bashing on the net over this which is why I'm not clicking any further. But I need help understanding - prior to this I wasn't aware that children of polygamous marriages were not allowed to be baptised. Please help me understand if you can. Isn't this policy punishing children because of the sins of their parents? Let's say an 8 year old desires to be baptised, and his gay parents agree to let him attend church, primary, etc, (perhaps with member relatives or friends), then where is the harm in that if the parents are ok with it? How does this relate to our 2nd Article of Faith or the principle contained in scripture in John 9:13, where the Saviour says the blind man was not born that way because of the sins of his parents? If the children of gay couples can't be baptised because of their parents' lifestyle, then how is that different to baptising the child of unwed or co-habiting parents who have no interest in the church but are willing to allow their child to be part of it? I'd like to share my own personal example so you know where I'm coming from - I was born into a dysfunctional situation of every conceivable kind of immorality you can think of. In fact, I am the product of a brief sexual relationship between my then teenage mother and my then professional athlete, married with children - father. He was never in my life growing up. My own mother at one point was into Satanism and when I was 16 she refused permission for me to join the church as she was told it was a cult (oh, the irony). As a child I rebelled against it all (by not participating) and was punished severely for my views. I was naturally drawn to churches - any Christian church. I would walk by myself to local churches where-ever we lived (we moved often) and loved hearing the stories of Jesus Christ and looking at images of the Passion of Christ in some churches I visited. Where did this desire come from? Somehow the light of Christ found me even thought I lived in a situation where spiritual darkness was all around me. I can only praise God in my heart every time I think of how he let me know of the reality of his love in spite of my family background. So, let's say my mother was gay (she was bi-sexual) and raised me in a lesbian relationship (she didn't, it was much worse than that). As a child I would have leaped at the chance to be baptised into the church if my mother gave permission. I would have been hungry to be around good, solid families and spiritual beliefs that were wholesome and pure. How on earth would it benefit anyone - if a child like the one I was, is denied baptism and full fellowship in the gospel until they are an adult? I do not want to argue, but I do need some clarity here.

I'm sure many of us can relate to having lives that are full of responsibilities and/or challenges that can take our focus off the the Saviour and how He would have us live. I don't do it as often as I should, but I try to read about the life and teachings of Jesus in the New Testament - often. By reading the words that were recorded about Him, I gain insights for how to show deeper love for others and see them as He would. Reading the General Conference talks a few times a week, as well as Ensign articles also help me to stay focused on the Saviour. In fact, without those regular experiences of increased faith gained from feeling the spirit during Conference talks and scripture reading, I fear I would wither on the gospel vine. The Saviour's words and deeds recorded in the gospels, along with spiritual guidance from our modern day prophet and apostles, always inspire me to want to be a better person. I need all the help I can get, because I am far from being the kind of person I would like to be and constant reminders are needed to keep me Christ-centred.

Is that quote a reference to plural marriage? I'm just curious.