ElectofGod
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Exactly...sort of like the Adam-God theory. (it only took 20 years for the Church to publicly renounce that one)
But this is a problem.
ONLY
The adam-God theory was incorporated into the early endowment.
heard of the lecture at the veil?
In the st george temple from 1877 until it was removed in 1990. However it was not given usually to the participants except the early years.
Guess this part of history really did happen than?
this revelation was in the year 1841, joseph died in 1844. this is the nauvoo period to reference.
D&C 124: 28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.50 And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.
Explains a lot.
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Outsider looking-in muses: I know that scripture must reconcile. Prophets/prophecies must reconcile with scripture or be declared wrong. Leadership teachings should reconcile with scripture, but can be chalked up to human error, overstatement, hyperbole, etc.
So, my question: Is it possible for an LDS prophet to say something he believes in prophecy, and for it to turn out to be error? If so, is there room for this? Can it be said that the prophet spoke out of opinion in a given matter, even though he declared it prophesy at the time?
In pentecostal teaching, this is not only possible, but is an obligation of church leaders. When prophesy is spoken, we are commanded to seek the gift of discernment. If there is error, correction is made. I have no suggestions about any given prophesy or teaching. My question is "in general."
If such a prophet does that, and it failed because THEY received revelation than they are a false prophet. Could it be possible for a man to think its prophecy when its not? Yes sure its possible, if they are deceived or still lack the gift of discernment. There are circumstances were prophecies CAN be fulfilled different than WE think they will be fulfilled however. Also there could be times when one is stated, and the people repent changing it. Or in essence, its a conditional prophecy based off "the people". Though such a prophecy I would think would be stated AS such, ie "Repent else be destroyed".
Back to the OP,
Policy or doctrine?
1949 First Presidency statement:"The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. IT IS NOT A MATTER OF THE DECLARATION OF A POLICY BUT OF DIRECT COMMUNICATION FROM THE LORD< ON WHICH IS FOUNDED THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH FROM THE DAYS OF ITS ORGANIZATION, TO THE EFFECT THAT NEGROES MAY BECOME MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH BUT THAT THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO THE PRIESTHOOD AT THE PRESENT TIME.
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Rebaptism, 12May44
-- 12May44
[Joseph Smith Sermon] ... The sectarians have no Charity for me but I have for them.
I intend to send men to prison to preach to them, and this is all on the Principle of entering in by Water and Spirit.
Dead Must Have Same Ordinances as Living and baptism for the dead, who died without the knowledge of the gospel I am going on in my progress for eternal life--it is not only necessary that you should be baptized for your dead, but you will have to go thro' all the ordinances for them, same as you have gone through, to save yourselves; there will be 144,000 Saviors on Mount Zion, and with them an innumerable host, that no man can number-- therefore those who are baptised for their dead are the Saviour's on mount Zion & the[y] must receive their washings and their anointings for their dead the same as for themselves till the[y] are connected to the ones in the dispensation before us and trace their leniage to connect the priesthood again and if any other man preach any other gospel then this and the Baptism for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the reception of the holy ghost let him be anathematized or accursed The curs of god shall be upon him or them.
Then you must not only be baptized for them but they must receive the Holy Ghost by Proxy and be sealed by it unto the day of their redemption as all the other ordinances by proxy.
All persons who have been Baptized and who have received the Holy Ghost may be baptized for their ancestors or near relatives. God has administrators in the eternal world to release those spirits from Prison the ordinances being administered by proxy upon them the law is fulfilled.
Make Your Calling and Election Sure Oh! I beseech you to forward, go forward and make your calling and your election sure---and if any man preach any other gospel with that which I have preached, he shall be cursed, and some of you who now hear me, shall see it & know that I testify the truth concerning them; Nations Come to the Temple Then Return in regard to the law of the Priesthood--there should be a place where all nations shall come up from time to time to receive their endowments, and the Lord has said, this shall be the place for the baptism for the dead--every man that has been baptized and belongs to the Kingdom, has a right to be baptized for those who are gone before, and, as soon as the Law of the Gospel is obeyed here by their friends, who act as proxy for them, the Lord has administrators there to set them free--a man may act as proxy for his own relatives-- Ordinances put in Place Before the World Made the ordinances of the Gospel which was laid out before the foundation of the world has been thus fulfilled, by them, and we may be baptized for those who we have much friendship for, Baptized for Relatives and Friends (With Permission) but it must be first revealed to the man of God, lest we should run too far.... (1)
Reiterate one comment in the quote,
" till the[y] are connected to the ones in the dispensation before us "
"Baptized for Relatives and Friends (With Permission) but it must be first revealed to the man of God, lest we should run too far...."
...
millenium is living in a terrestial word, not telestial, its focus is different.
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So according to what others have said, the church was at one time allowed to lead others astray with a completely false doctrine, yet they fix it now. So good thing we won't be damned but they must be for believing and practicing such false doctrines.
What a ridiculous view point!
Fairmormon quotes hinckley,
Recent remarks by the current prophet, President Hinckley, demonstrate that members of the LDS church must put aside any thoughts or legacy of racial intolerance or unkindness:Racial strife still lifts its ugly head. I am advised that even right here among us there is some of this. I cannot understand how it can be. It seemed to me that we all rejoiced in the 1978 revelation given President Kimball. I was there in the temple at the time that that happened. There was no doubt in my mind or in the minds of my associates that what was revealed was the mind and the will of the Lord.
Now I am told that racial slurs and denigrating remarks are sometimes heard among us. I remind you that no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church of Christ. How can any man holding the Melchizedek Priesthood arrogantly assume that he is eligible for the priesthood whereas another who lives a righteous life but whose skin is of a different color is ineligible?
Throughout my service as a member of the First Presidency, I have recognized and spoken a number of times on the diversity we see in our society. It is all about us, and we must make an effort to accommodate that diversity.
Let us all recognize that each of us is a son or daughter of our Father in Heaven, who loves all of His children.
Brethren, there is no basis for racial hatred among the priesthood of this Church. If any within the sound of my voice is inclined to indulge in this, then let him go before the Lord and ask for forgiveness and be no more involved in such.[3]
Soo ALL the early prophets cannot consider themselves disciples of Christ.
Difference between policy and doctrine? This is Doctrine they are teaching. Took us 3 generations I guess to correct this one, what one or two generations to correct lectures on faith, 3 generations to remove the church patriarch...
the church has just stated the following people were wrong,
Brigham Young
John Taylor
Wilford Woodruff
Spencer W. Kimball
Maybe even others.
2 nephi 5: 21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.3 nephi 2:15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;It would be nice if the leaders could receive a reveation on this matter, you know actual Doctrine. Instead of stating everything as policies or public statements.
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The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time.
—First Presidency statement, August 17, 1949
Loudmouth, its partially quoted in the official statement.
number 8.
Brigham Young, Speeches Before the Utah Territorial Legislature, Jan. 23 and Feb. 5, 1852, George D. Watt Papers, Church History Library, Salt Lake City, transcribed from Pitman shorthand by LaJean Purcell Carruth; “To the Saints,” Deseret News, April 3, 1852, 42.It summarized parts of it here,
In 1850, the U.S. Congress created Utah Territory, and the U.S. president appointed Brigham Young to the position of territorial governor. Southerners who had converted to the Church and migrated to Utah with their slaves raised the question of slavery’s legal status in the territory. In two speeches delivered before the Utah territorial legislature in January and February 1852, Brigham Young announced a policy restricting men of black African descent from priesthood ordination. At the same time, President Young said that at some future day, black Church members would “have [all] the privilege and more” enjoyed by other members.8Mormonism and racial issues/Blacks and the priesthood/Policy or doctrine - FairMormon
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...is when we give way to the notion that "no, the prophet just led the Church astray--and if the old prophet led us wrong about this, then the current prophet is leading us wrong about whatever else I want him to be wrong about".
This is exactly the issue here.
And this is the issue that should be addressed as MANY are losing Faith in God because of these things. I think this would be a beneficial discussion to many people that are struggling. There are SO many things that have changed.
Its nice to just state what you did. But it would do more for those struggling if we stated WHY we shouldn't give in to that notion that "so and so got this wrong, hence others could also be wrong".
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The Church proclaims that redemption through Jesus Christ is available to the entire human family on the conditions God has prescribed. It affirms that God is “no respecter of persons”24 and emphatically declares that anyone who is righteous—regardless of race—is favored of Him. The teachings of the Church in relation to God’s children are epitomized by a verse in the second book of Nephi: “[The Lord] denieth none that cometh unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; . . . all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.”25
Or Brigham young,
In the preisthood I will tell you what it will do. Where the children of God to mingle there seed with the seed of Cain it would not only bring the curse of being deprived of the power of the preisthood upon themselves but they entail it upon their children after them, and they cannot get rid of it. If a man in an ungaurded moment should commit such a transgression, if he would walk up and say cut off my head, and kill man woman and child it would do a great deal towards atoneing for the sin. .. It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed of Cain for servants. ...Let this Church which is called the kingdom of God on the earth; we will sommons the first presidency, the twelve, the high counsel, the Bishopric, and all the elders of Israel, suppose we summons them to apear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with with us and be pertakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day, and hour we should do so, the priesthood is taken from this Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to destruction..." (Brigham Young, February 5 1852)and many other quotes including other presidents such as john taylor.
Racism could be one reason. But who knows who was really right.
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Yeah my favourite movie has a scene where a guy walks threw a skyscraper as it falls ontop of him, to save a little girl. He then proceeds to crush a mans skull with his bare hand and hit three other guys so hard they explode.
I got that movie for free at an anime store (it was on VHS)... Violence is a part of life, we kill to survive.
Yea in highschool my favorite movies were Running Scared, also American History X. Full of profanity, violence, and a great actor paul walker for the first movie
Not recommended for anyone. I won't watch it any more. But still it shows many great points of what our society has come to especially with American history X. Too over the top but I just used to love violence.Now looking at the world I see it and all I can think is this...
2 nephi 26:7 O the pain, and the anguish of my soul for the loss of the slain of my people! For I, Nephi, have seen it, and it well nigh consumeth me before the presence of the Lord; but I must cry unto my God: Thy ways are just.8 But behold, the righteous that hearken unto the words of the prophets, and destroy them not, but look forward unto Christ with steadfastness for the signs which are given, notwithstanding all persecution—behold, they are they which shall not perish.
9 But the Son of Righteousness shall appear unto them; and he shall heal them, and they shall have peace with him, until three generations shall have passed away, and many of the fourth generation shall have passed away in righteousness.
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Because we love violence. Its what will befall us when our nation is destroyed.
Romans loved to watch people fight to the death.
We love to watch people fight, kill, have immoral acts, and far more than they did with even more graphic reality in our movies.
We are no different, if not more wicked. We are in a world of violence and the BOM teaches us how to live righteously among such wickedness.
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My question to you PC - is why will we live in perfect unity? What must happen to cause perfect unity? And most of all - is it happening now? If unity is not happening now - would it not be delusional to think it will happen; unless, something that is not happening now does happen at some time?
If we do not know or have some vision of what must change - it is likely we are not on that path to change.
The Traveler
Not PC but I love these questions. Does it really TAKE 3-4 generations to become Zioni?
"to become of one heart and one mind".
How do we do that?
When two people have the same purpose they become one heart and one mind.
When two people are entireliy focused on Christ, with an eye single to his glory, having been sanctified through teh blood of Christ, having their blood cleansed through His garments and washed clean, when two people have the same purpose to serve Him in all hazards, in all places, at all times, and Have eternal life, they also become one heart and one mind.
The Lord gave the early saints the united order. They wanted to know WHAT to do, outwards things, lists, items, Do this, this and this, than you can be Zion. It didn't work. What was missing?
They were not united IN Christ. When two people gain an eye single to the Glory of God, are clothed in Charity, they are united in consequence of their actions of being Christlike. They don't need an outwards law for the law has been written in their hearts.
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I think the question answered in the OP is easily answered. We are in a state of apostasy if we do not have a direct connection to heaven.
Mormon said that when we have faith, angels "appear" and minister to us. Joseph stated that,
"For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto — revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every necessary thing, in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected, and obtain salvation;"
In other words, when we have faith, the fruit of that faith is indicated by revelations, visions, dreams, and angels that "appear" and minister to us. These things are necessary.
If we do not see these things, we are in a state of apostasy. We sing in our hymns, "The visions and blessings of old are returning and angels are coming to visit the earth." Are these experiences ours?
We cannot ride into heaven on the coat tails of other people's experiences. Each of us must come to know God for ourselves. The experiences and faith of others does not save us.
D&C 131:6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.
In order to be saved, we must receive knowledge. In the scriptures we read this.
"for there is a great difference between believing in God and knowing him—knowledge implies more than faith."
When we have faith, we receive the knowledge of God. This comes in the form described above. If we have not faith, we are in a state of apostasy.
Interesting. Thanks for this. I think it applies to this too.
We go through the following stages.
Unbelief
Belief
Faith
Knowledge
Relating Unbelif,
2 nephi 32:7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.Belief
3 Nephi 16:66 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.
4 Nephi 1:29
29 And again, there was another church which denied the Christ; and they did persecute the true church of Christ, because of their humility and their belief in Christ; and they did despise them because of the many miracles which were wrought among them.
3 Nephi 16:7
Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
Or as I would say from going from unbelief, which is not understanding knowledge (doctrine) or incorrectly believing "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture" as truth, to belief.
Belief is understanding truth, having had the holy ghost witness all things to us relating to Christ and the father. When we have finally cast off our unbelief.
Faith,
Moroni 7:37...for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.
39 But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church.
knowledge,
Just a few references.
2 Nephi 30:55 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers.
Jacob 4:12
12 And now, beloved, marvel not that I tell you these things; for why not speak of the atonement of Christ, and attain to a perfect knowledge of him, as to attain to the knowledge of a resurrection and the world to come?
1 Nephi 15:14
14 And at that day shall the remnant of our seed know that they are of the house of Israel, and that they are the covenant people of the Lord; and then shall they know and come to the knowledge of their forefathers, and also to the knowledge of the gospel of their Redeemer, which was ministered unto their fathers by him; wherefore, they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and the very points of his doctrine, that they may know how to come unto him and be saved.
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If I may be given some freedom to conjecture I will give my thoughts. I believe that there are certain signs, certain ordinances which the great God of Heaven has setup which are eternal. If one desires to obtain the power of the priesthood, among other things, he must receive the signs.
Moreover, in every estate we must receive these ordinances, these signs. In our first estate as spirit beings we had to receive these same ordinances. Now in our second estate we must again receive them. Michael progressed and received all the ordinances in his first estate. Having received these he was then required to obtain them in his second. At each estate growing in glory and power. And so it continues from one estate to another.
Thanks for that quote! :)
I agree with this 100%.
I love the orson Hyde diagram, makes things simple.
The above diagram shows the order and unity of the kingdom of God. The eternal Father sits at the head, crowned King of kings and Lord of lords. Wherever the other lines meet, there sits a king and a priest unto God, bearing rule, authority, and dominion under the Father. He is one with the Father, because his kingdom is joined to his Father's and becomes part of it.The most eminent and distinguished prophets who have laid down their lives for their testimony (Jesus among the rest), will be crowned at the head of the largest kingdoms under the Father, and will be one with Christ as Christ is one with his Father; for their kingdoms are all joined together, and such as do the will of the Father, the same are his mothers, sisters, and brothers. He that has been faithful over a few things, will be made ruler over many things; he that has been faithful over ten talents, shall have dominion over ten cities, and he that has been faithful over five talents, shall have dominion over five cities, and to every man will be given a kingdom and a dominion, according to his merit, powers, and abilities to govern and control. It will be seen by the above diagram that there are kingdoms of all sizes, an infinite variety to suit all grades of merit and ability. The chosen vessels unto God are the kings and priests that are placed at the head of these kingdoms. These have received their washings and anointings in the temple of God on this earth; they have been chosen, ordained, and anointed kings and priests, to reign as such in the resurrection of the just. Such as have not received the fulness of the priesthood, (for the fulness of the priesthood includes the authority of both king and priest) and have not been anointed and ordained in the temple of the Most High, may obtain salvation in the celestial kingdom, but not a celestial crown. Many are called to enjoy a celestial glory, yet few are chosen to wear a celestial crown, or rather, to be rulers in the celestial kingdom.
While this portion of eternity that we now live in, called time, continues, and while the other portions of eternity that we may hereafter dwell in, continue, those lines in the foregoing diagram, representing kingdoms, will continue to extend and be lengthened out; and thus, the increase of our kingdoms will increase the kingdom of our God, even as Daniel hath said: “of the increase of his kingdom and government there shall be no end.” All these kingdoms are one kingdom, and there is a King over kings, and a Lord over lords. There are Lords many, and Gods many, for they are called Gods to whom the word of God comes, and the word of God comes to all these kings and priests. But to our branch of the kingdom there is but one God, to whom we all owe the most perfect submission and loyalty; yet our God is just as subject to still higher intelligences, as we should be to him.
...These kingdoms, which are one kingdom, are designed to extend till they not only embrace this world, but every other planet that rolls in the blue vault of heaven. Thus will all things be gathered in one during the dispensation of the fulness of times, and the Saints will not only possess the earth, but all things else, for, says Paul, “All things are yours, whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come: all are yours, and ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's”
(Orson Hyde, “A Diagram of the Kingdom of God,” Millennial Star 9 [15 January 1847]: 23-24).
Orson Hyde's Diagram of the Kingdom of God
According to the teachings that the Prophet gave in private (but which he only hinted at in this discourse [13 August 1843]), to be heir to Abraham's promise that he would head an innumerable posterity, each individual and his children must be sealed for time and eternity. If this sealing was performed, he taught, the covenant relationship would then continue throughout eternity. The Prophet taught, moreover, that such a patriarchal priesthood of kings and priests would have to be established by sealing children and parents back through Abraham to Adam in order to fulfill the mission of Elijah (Malachi 4:5-6). When this was accomplished, the order within the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom would then be eternally set. Probably no clearer statement of Joseph's theology regarding this concept can be found than what is given in an editorial by Orson Hyde. The following diagram began the editorial after which came the text.Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph, compiled and edited by Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook [Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1980], 297.)
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Elect, when the D&C mentions "the Jews," I'm guessing the reference is to the religious hierarchy--the teachers of the law (rabbis). Am I right? After all, at its foundation, the church was a Jewish sect.
Great question I don't know the answer. Titles can be used in many different ways.
I would assume in that reference I posted it, the jews, refers to jerusalem, or judah. All the people as it was "the kingdom". But when it brings the idea of john overthrowing it, it refers specically to what you said, the teachers of the law.
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How about the apostasy with the jews? They had the gospel, the covenanted people, yet fell into apostasy. This is a good place to look at because its one of the few places we have some information on.
Johns mission,
“For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight says old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power” (D&C; 84:28“Thirdly. John, at that time, was the only legal administrator in the affairs of the kingdom there was then on the earth, and holding the keys of power. The Jews had to obey his instructions or be damned, by their own law; and Christ Himself fulfilled all righteousness in becoming obedient to the law. …The son of Zacharias wrested the keys, the kingdom, the power, the glory from the Jews, by the holy anointing and decree of heaven, and these three reasons constitute him the greatest prophet born of a woman” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938], pp. 275–76).A new dispensation is started after an apostasy occurs. For there is not a need for a new dispensation when there is no apostasy. Thats my personal opinon that could change in the future.
How did John wrest the keys from the jews? This occured because the priests, the leaders, etc had become corrupted, and those who were not had no keys or authority. So john "wrested" the keys from them to prepare the way for the Lord.
Did he wrest them because they rejected him? Was it the rejection of John, being the servant to prepare the way for the lord, that caused them to lose the keys, kingdom, power, and glory? Their inability to recognize the truth that was once part of their religion?
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Can one even be a G_d before they are exalted? Than how was Michael (El) a God?
The temple paints the picture of our path to Godhood (exaltation).
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Not sure a piece of wood or metal, no matter how fancy it is can be considered as living as something growing crops.
I really am not understanding why a blessed cross is any different than an unblessed one. If a cross makes you remember Christ does a blessed one make you remember Him more?
As a Priesthood bearer I would not participate in the blessing of an object like this and yes I do think its different than blessing a home.
my 2 cents - your mileage may vary
FWIW
"ALL THINGS PRAISE THE LORD"
Legends of the Jews [Chapter I: The Creation of the World, Volume I]
As for blessing objects. There are many blessed objects in the book of mormon. The question is what is the purpose for doing it?
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Does it worry me? Yes. I am scared to death. I am not ready or prepared for the second coming. But I am praying to be so that the Lord will prepare me. I believe things are going to be VERY BAD very QUICKLY. I believe obamacare will be used to coerce and control us. If ye are prepared ye shall not fear.
Revelations 13:16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.But we already know the outcome of things.
D&C 87:6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;Decreed, the law in heaven, is decreed, that there will be an END of all nations. Including our own. It will fall by war, than famine, plagues, pestilence, etc...
Not to divert your attention on these things. My focus used to be these things, the Lord used it to point me to whats important and he can for you.
Ether says,
8:23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.
25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.
26 Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have no power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be persuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved.
For the time speedily cometh that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy; and he will spare his people, yea, even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire. (2 Ne 30:10)Our Call Is to Build Zion Where We AreElder Jeffrey R. Holland
CES Devotional, September 2012
According to Elder Holland the Church will never flee into the wilderness again.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/32.1-7
Put our focus on Christ. That is the only hope we can find in this world.
Isaiah has told us already what will happen.
Read this chapter.
Analysis of Isaiah 3 by Hebrew Scholar Avraham Gileadi Ph.D.
If time this one. Analysis of Isaiah 28 by Hebrew Scholar Avraham Gileadi Ph.D.
Hey, read all of it if time... :). Especially the chapters that were compiled in the book of mormon by Mormon.
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Some believe that God, call it what you want, is beyond our weak understanding. If there is truly a divine creator out there, I don't believe I could ever understand it in this life, understand an avatar or incarnation yes because that is what such things are made for. Least I think so.
So many religions, throughout human history, have put human looks to their Gods, or to put a Godly idea onto themselves.
I haven't commented to many of your posts. I would like to respond to this portion.
Lakumi, this is the gospel of jesus christ, that YOU CAN know God, you can converse with him as one man does with another, you can talk to him through prayer and hear his voice, that you can have a personal and intimate relationship with HIM.
I promise you that what you wrote is not true, IT CAN and SHOULD be understood in this life. Turn to him entirely in prayer. Ask to know him. He will respond in his own way, his own time, but know assuredly he is your father, he knows you, I promise you this is true. He loves you and knows you.
I have had my doubts. I have not seen him yet, I but he has spoken to me to prepare me to do so. Including through his voice, dreams, and ministering angels have taught me.
Call me a crazy religious person
. But I believe with every fiber of my body Joseph smith SAW and TALKED with God. That moses, abraham, adam, and all the others did. what does this tell us? That WE can know him too! We can understand him! You CANT talk to someone you DONT understand.So much so I would give my life as a witness that Christ and Heavenly father lives.
Believest thou that these things are true?
Doctrine and Covenants 76:20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness;21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.
22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.
Can ye deny the witness of men who have entered into his presence? Do you believe that through the power of the holy ghost that he can confirm these truths to you?
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I concur with others. I would do something out of respect for someone. But also at the same time as traveler pointed out, we should naturally go away from graven images. But how far do we go?
Images of Christ?
Temples?
Moroni?
Prophets?
Do you see what I am doing here? Joseph explained it.
"There is one thing under the sun which I have learned and that is that the righteousness of man is sin because it exacteth over much; nevertheless, the righteousness of God is just, because it exacteth nothing at all, but sendeth the rain on the just and the unjust, seed time and harvest, for all of which man is ungrateful." (TPJS, pg 317) -
By the holy ghost you shall know the truth of all things. Have your prayed and studied over these questions?
"and heavenly father is a being how do we know he is a guy ?"
Can a father be a she? Not sure what you are asking. The scriptures always use Him, He, etc.. There is a heavenly mother too. The question is, do you believe the people who claim to have talked with God and have seen Him?
Just as God created the earth as a place for you to live and gain experience, He created you. And gave you a body of flesh and blood in the likeness of His glorified body. In the Old Testament God said, "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26). Jacob declared that he had seen God "face to face" (Genesis 32:30). Moses also spoke with God "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend" (Exodus 33:11). In the New Testament, when the resurrected Christ appeared to His Apostles, He told them, "Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39).Plan of Salvation. God's Plan For Your Life & Happiness | Mormon.org
"b4 we were born our heavenly father knew us
i cannot find it in the bible or book of mormon .
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Its all in there. Have you read it all the way through?
Just a few,
every plant of the field before it was in the earth: Gen. 2:5 . ( Abr. 5:5 . )you are children of the most High: Ps. 82:6 . ( Rom. 8:16 . )
spirit shall return unto God who gave it: Eccl. 12:7 .
he that giveth … spirit to them that walk therein: Isa. 42:5 .
Ye are the sons of the living God: Hosea 1:10 .
formeth the spirit of man within him: Zech. 12:1 .
we are the offspring of God: Acts 17:29 .
in subjection unto the Father of spirits: Heb. 12:9 .
First spiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work: D&C 29:32 .
temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual: D&C 77:2 .
All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure: D&C 131:7 .
created all things … spiritually, before they were naturally: Moses 3:5 .
beheld the spirits that God had created: Moses 6:36 .
I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh: Moses 6:51 .
spirits … have no beginning; they existed before: Abr. 3:18 .
he stood among those that were spirits: Abr. 3:23 .
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Alma 13; " 3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such."
It may be semantics - called vs. chosen. Is being "chosen" not a priesthood calling?
YEs I think its semantics. I would not equate called or chosen in the context of that verse to priesthood.
I truly believe our eternal existence is a that twofold (ok one) calling. To save souls. To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
I loved this verse though! Its one of my favorite.
"on account of their exceeding faith and good works". I guess you could say we are choosen because of Good works. What are good works. Anything that "brings others unto christ" that heavenly Father asks us to do.
To the last part "are called with a holy calling, a preparatory redemption for such."
I find this the most fascinating sentences in the entire book of mormon. The holy calling came from that preparatory redemption. Otherwards because of their exceedingly great faith, they were allowed to have a holy calling. We could be called to hold the priesthood to help us if worthy.
John pontius talks about priesthood and callings so I won't derail the subject. Oath and the Covenant By John Pontius
As for the other posts, I think JUST_A_GUY question is one worthy asking.
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I personally think that the things that matter for us is that we do this.
1) if we do improve our time while in this life
2) We doubled our talents
I believe when the scriptures say AWAKE and ARISE it means, 1) to awake to who we were before this life, and 2) Arise or do something that will cause us to improve ourselves and double our talents. This is what happened to Abraham in Abraham 3. The lord showed him who he was. This is why we shouldn't compare ourselves to others. Only to Christ, the perfect prototype. We are all imperfect.
So we must work out our salvation "with fear and trembling".
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What does the book of mormon DEFINE as "the end"?
As for knowing hte will of god. What does it take to know what you are doing is contrary to God?
If these were answered, sorry, didn't read it all.
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Here are some things to ponder,
JST, Genesis 14:29
Joseph Smith Translation
And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.
Moses 6:51
Pearl of Great Price
And he called upon our father Adam by his own voice, saying: I am God; I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh.
D&C 84:42
Doctrine and Covenants
And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.
D&C 132:59
Doctrine and Covenants
Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him.
D&C 136:37
Doctrine and Covenants
...words that I have given you, from the days of Adam to Abraham, from Abraham to Moses, from Moses to Jesus and his apostles, and from Jesus and his apostles to Joseph Smith, whom I did call upon by mine angels, my ministering servants, and by mine own voice
Ether 12:14 Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost.3Ne. 19:13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
Helamen 10: 3... and it came to pass as he was thus pondering in his heart, behold, a voice came unto him saying:
7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.
Further another interesting scripture.
D&C 84:42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.Going along with what vort just said about God having a body.
An Excerpt from Oliver Cowdery’s “General Charge to the Twelve”You have been indebted to other men, in the first instance, for evidence; on that you have acted; but it is necessary that you receive a testimony from heaven for yourselves; so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon, and that you have seen the face of God. That is more than the testimony of an angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God, this testimony God will never suffer to fall, but will bear you out; although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will therefore see the necessity of getting this testimony from heaven.
Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, your sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you. We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us; God is the same. If the Savior in former days laid His hands upon His disciples, why not in latter days?
[Pp. 195–96 in Roberts, B.H., ed. 1976. History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Vol. II. 2nd ed. rev. Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book Company.]
As for the calling question. Our only calling is twofold. To become like God and saving souls. That is our calling and always will be. Missionary work is an assignment, but the call itself of saving souls is part of our ongoing calling. "if ye have desires to serve him ye are called to the work". The work of souls.
Church issues Race & Priesthood statement rejecting theories for past ban on Blacks in priesthood
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
Nope because its not true. This same logic i could say anything you agree with that he has said you also agree with an excommunicated person. Or if you agree with any Michael Quinn or any of the others have stated.
Good thing you cant substantiate any of your claims. You or I have never read PTHG.
Just looked at claim 9, still no mention of when the lord came to restore again the priesthood.
Its a simple answer.
Its a simple answer.
Show me when the Lord restored the fulness. Greg smith did not do that.