ElectofGod

Ah ok I see now. My thoughts were said in a round about way. The reason is what I truly believe about the next life is personal, opinion, and not meant for public discussion. You are right, suffering is a telestial world thing only (without glory, the world which we now live). But what is this world for? To prepare us to be like God? Or to prove ourselves in all things? Or to prove to ourselves who we ARE, are really ARE? Are We trying to find the deity within ourselves? Whats the purpose in this life of suffering if it doesn't perfect us? What did Christ have to suffer for us? What is its purpose? Some are able to some are never able to find that deity within themselves and connect to the holy spirit making them one with God. Like satan who progressed next to adam in the pre-existence but decided through rebellion to cease his progression. Cast out into a world without glory. I see it this way Celestial: Increasing State Terrestial: Everything stays the same Telestial: Degenerates Also, there are orders higher than the celestial realm which one must progress too. The process we become like God, is the same that has been done in other worlds, one eternal round, Eternal life, Eternal Lives... otherwise one inherits eternal deaths. (D&C 132). All I will say is this. Going back to the OP. Do we expect to become something if we have not done what they themselves has not done? Do we expect to be able to become a God yet not sacrifice all things? As said by JS that we must do in Lectures on Faith (I think part 6). Now I'll just end with the king follet discourse and leave it at that. Which I summarized above already. This is what I believe. Its my opinion nothing more. Even though I am vague in that. This is all taught (as I SEE it) in the endowment. There are way to many views on what this all means so this is why I am not commenting on it. At least not here.

I see exactly what you are saying and I used to think like this. My thoughts have changed recently. I don't have the knowledge to expound scriptures to show my point. But I will briefly explain it. There are two degrees of this. a) a wicked man who does not repent must suffer to overcome it STILL to receive forgiveness b) Those who repented enough to become "those who Christ's sins bore", otherwards celestial, yet they still must suffer. The first is reaching the point to enter the path, the straight and narrow, to receive ones baptism by fire and the holy ghost. Than they will have received a remission of their sins and continue to cleans their blood through Christ. They who do not repent, "must still suffer" to overcome that which they did not else they will not receive a forgiveness. Those who do overcome, still suffer and must do so. Here they allowed Christ bore (bear) them up to the point they are free from sin. They are not sinless but are free from its bondage. They still suffer through their own sins. They still must suffer to perfect themselves. They must "sacrifice all things" to gain an exaltation. From exaltation to exaltation until they attain the resurrection of the dead and can dwell in everlasting burnings (King Follet Discourse) The reason WHY Christ had to suffer in Gethsemane is because that is what perfected him. The 40 day fast is a type of suffering of perfection. Its a type of him subjecting his flesh to the spirit to such a degree that it caused his stomach to bleed (at least it would for us), to feed upon itself. His suffering in Gethsemane is a type of how he forgave us and caused the heavens to have mercy and grace have take on all those who would accept. Thus its a type of how we gain forgiveness for ourselves. There are multiple meanings for suffering and it can come in more forms than just pain and anguish. What does it mean to go from grace to grace? “And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at first, but received grace for grace. And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness.” In other words, Jesus grew in grace (light, truth, power, and perfection) by giving grace (service and blessings to others). We progress from one grace to another by giving grace to others. Grace is to get grace on the condition of giving grace. “For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.” What do these have in common? While suffering accelerates our learning and progression and shows us who we really are in ALL circumstances, it is not quite the same as simply service. One we are requiring grace another we are giving grace. Except in Gethsemane Christ was not only receiving it but giving it in behalf of us. We can too! How? Being a savior on mount Zion. Being an intercessory for all is how we practice this principle. I have come to realize the importance of this in all we do. We should be acting as intercessories as much as we are capable and able to do so for others. In our prayers, they should be directed towards others. In our acts, they should be directed towards others, in our suffering they should direct us towards God or others (Charity). My thoughts in this are new so my understanding may be off quite a bit. So here we have the other half of this picture. Suffering perfects but also does giving grace. It was a little off tangent. So what of those new borns? The children who die? All the others that seem to suffer? a) They are suffering because they are not repenting. b) They are not suffering because they ALREADY learned the principle behind it. I ask how? If we can only learn things through a body? Being here? If this is the life to know god? How did they before coming here? c) They are still required to suffer equally to the point that is required, thus they suffer than the rest is up to us. If we don't repent we will suffer UNTIL we do so, than we will progress to the next level of grace. UNLESS we have voided our rights to do so by breaking eternal covenants that have been entered than broken. Stopped our progression where there is no forgiveness in the world to come but still receive an exaltation. Hope I am making sense. Its a little cluttered.

The only person I would take from if I could choose one would be Joseph Smith. The talk I would choose? Lectures on Faith.

20% usually, sometimes 18%. Occasionally higher if I feel the need. Rarely.

Since the review was posted, its the worst article I have read by FAIR and they did a lousy job analyzing parts of the book. They try to find faults in what the authors interviewee (the person who had the Dream) and make arguments against what was said, BUT it ignore what was written before those same stories that they are not to be taken literally. They try to argue no revelation can be given for the church, when the book states its meaning was only for the person who received it. The article takes packers quote totally out of context, about the millennium being grandchildren AWAY, which is NOT what packer stated. Spencer does not state its scripture but that its all metaphorically. SYMBOLIC! That He himself does not know what the dream means. Its an excellent book. Not to mention there is false doctrine taught in the fair article. But, hey, they can't speak for the church either, they are independent organization. Yes there are false things in the book but if you have an open mind and realize its symbolic, metaphorical, allegorical, and sometimes literal, than you will enjoy this book. The one thing this book did for me, was desire to experience the blessings that are available to all and draw near to the Lord.

My Patriarchal blessing states I have the gift of knowledge. I am going to use it to bless others :). Though I realize how poorly I do it, I would consider myself in this category of having knowledge and using it to benefit the church. My PB says to do so. I know not what you meant.

I was going to touch on it but didn't. I will share what I feel is my own opinion. While reading it, looks like I was slightly mistaken in that statement. Looks like others view it differently than I. I will put new thought into it. Why did I think they commit the unpardonable sin? Well it depends on what sin it is. Some sins qualify some don't. The article does mention how some sins could NOT be the unpardonable sin but still dis-qualify us from exaltation (but still receive forgiveness). If I read that correctly at least. This is how I see it here. The article below explains it more thoroughly. The qualification is to "turneth from the priesthood" which will not cause us to become the son of perdition, but if we shed innocent blood or asscent to Christ's death, that is when we commit the unpardonable sin. I wouldn't worry about commiting the unpardonable sin if I were you. Its fear put in by Satan. You will only do whats in your heart already. Is it in your heart to turn against God? It ceases our progression. Not to say it doesn't come into my heart as it does sometimes, that fear of committing that sin. ---As I was typing I found a BYU article that answers it. I will just post it :). Read it, its really well written. 17. The Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood (D&C 84) | Religious Studies Center Patriarchal Priesthood This is quoted from the website by BH Porter The endowment teaches us how to walk about into the presence of God. What we must become to do so. It states "no forgiveness in the world to come" which usually accompanies the unpardonable sin, so that is why I thought it did. Something for me to consider and ponder.

Exactly. A Covenant is only a Covenant when God accepts it. We can make them all we want, but if God does not approve it does not matter. Thus if a husband or wife is mistreating their rights in the covenant, God can no longer accept it. See D&C 84 about the oath and covenant and D&C 121 states: Apply it to covenants and all ordinances of the gospel. This is speaking to those who receive the oath and covenant of the priesthood. The temple we make many covenants. Keep in mind this oath and covenant applies to the everlasting covenant of marriage, including our endowment, so it applies to both male and female. While we make covenants here in this life, they are almost all prepartory covenants, condintional upon our righteousness. This is done because God knows we make mistakes or people fall away. This allows us to learn and move on (ie leave a spouse) without condemnation coming upon us. Its beautiful. But only if its the Lord's will. God will judge all men according to their desires of their heart and according to their works.

I think McConkie was a very powerful teacher, more so than many along with JFS. I agree with skal, get rid of the manual and teach about Christ and make the teacher come up with a lesson on their own. Stick with the book of mormon manual. Out of the list I only want JFS or benson, I would get bored from the others most likely.

Going along with james post which said it very well. This relates to the oath and covenant. I think its also with a penalty at this point too which belongs to the sealing power. Thus the unpardonable sin for breaking this covenant.

My wife is most of them except 5 ish of them. I didn't count. I was the one that said yes to Taylor Swift

Great post suzie, The sad truth. As Uchdortf says, we are living far beneath our privileges as a people. We don't believe it will happen so it doesn't. Including myself.

If I remember correctly, The whole Christ delegating his judgments to the 12 is only for the righteous, Christ will still judge the wicked himself. One must receive a witness of Christ through the holy ghost or as defined here is a witness by the holy ghost while gazing into heaven. The holy Ghost than testifies that those things are true and not a Satan counterfeit. So who are they? After what sufferings? Most these notes were taken here: LDS (Mormonism) Deep Doctrine: Requirements to Commit the Unpardonable Sin I'm a lazy poster sometimes

For the same reasons Joseph Smith told Brigham Young, if I told you all that I knew you would want to kill me. Thats my guess anyways.

Yes I meant Stages of Faith. I agree with you here. No where in these stages does this happen except stage 4. Stage four is where one becomes "apostates" (sometimes, it may happen other places) or progresses to accept that everything around them is not perfect but realizes its still part of God's plan. I have met many people who fight against the church because they never gain that conversion to overcome the three trials we all must overcome. Thus they become stuck in stage 4 as written in the post. The temptations that one fall into, Parable of the sower. Truman G Madsen (or Nibley?) talks aboubt this. I just googled to find it but found a blog that expounds on it so I will copy it below so I don't have to summarize it myself.

Deleted this part of the thread. Something felt off about it. 7 STAGES OF GRIEF Because my title was wrong here is a random website

Its not judging when its fact. I never been in a ward that doesn't have families that do this. There was just a thread that popped up on this forum on this very matter. I am the elders quroum first councilor and visit families every week and the majority of the people I meet are struggling with their basic testimonies. Our ward is 6-7% home teaching (Yes I am included in that as I visit only half of mine 2/4). Its a transient ward, members don't stay longer than 1 year for the most part. Of course there are families that would love to study the gospel in greater depth also in these wards. But their numbers are few. But as for the OP the problem is the spirit cannot dwell when there is contention which seems to be the problem. I don't know how to address the problem. Luckily for me I don't have too I have acquaintences who I have talked to who are considered apostate from some but are FAR from it, that occasionally speaks out in gospel doctrine classes when they feel a need to. They are not always received well but what they spoke is truth according to my own understanding at least. Someone in tune with the spirit will know not to consistently to do this as it can cause contention and ruins the lesson from any chance of learning anything (again seems to be the OP problem). I have come to the conclusion there are two types of apostates: a) Those who really are b) Those who think outside the box so the Lord reveals things that would be troublesome to many. As I heard someone say (I think Brigham Young), more people left the church when Section 76 was revealed than they did from polygamy or any other church practice. Because they didn't like the new, now widely accepted, doctrine.

This is wonderful. The way it should be. Really discussing and expounding doctrine. The ones in my wards seem too much in a hurry to go home and watch their sport games, eat, or whatever else they do. I could spend all day discussing a lesson.

From the OP, there has not been sufficient evidence that the person is criticizing the church (leaders). Is he criticizing individuals? Is he criticizing the "corporate" church? Is he criticizing the "drifting off course of the church"? (Packer in 1990 stated the church has drifted off course due to 1) Fast growth 2) popularity with the world 3) properity, all of which happened in the church of Alma and Helamen) It may sound like he is interjecting, even if it be truth, in a way not consistent with longsuffering, patience, in the proper place and time (according to spirit)... So I don't know. There is two lines, criticizing the leaders due to lack of perfection (unrighteous judgement) which is NOT ok. Or judging the fruits of the organization itself which we are commanded to do. All is not OK with Zion but that does not mean we have the right to criticize anyone. I think empyropocket makes a good remark. You don't know where the individual is at in his progression. He may have hit a point where he has seen the corruption around him and struggling to find stable ground again. I've been there. Its a point where you re-ask yourself what is really true and what isn't? You separate traditions of man from the revelations of God. He may need you (the members) more than you need him to help him realize you won't judge him or prove his point, that members are anything but Christlike that have all gone astray which is not entirely true.

I hear emotional abuse is far worse than physical. From what my wife went through in her first marriage and what you stated there are lots of similarities. My wife became depressed and suicidal for a time. I would consider praying to see if you have permission to leave. Get a witness for yourself. God does not want us to be in an awful situation but to arise above it. That could mean leaving but it could also show you a way to work through it. What has the spirit shown you to do?

The quesiton is does it affect your ability to still love them? Not the act? I have similar thoughts when I look at all the things around me, tattoos, excessive piercings, drugs, music, partying, drugs, etc... But I still appreciate those around me even if their "shown" acts that I consider not of God and do not let it affect my abillity to look at them as Christ would. Try to anyways. The Book of Mormon Online Look at the bold wording that is used below. Keep in mind its not necessarily a sin to do these things, its not what goes into the body that defileth it but what comes out. My wife has a tattoo that she got when she was extremely depressed and suicidal from her first marriage. It was a comfort to the soul at the time and symbolic of some Gospel principle I don't remember what. Pray for charity, Moroni 7:

This is how I felt a lot at my house. I than got married (after my mission) and moved out. I was very glad to do so but also it helped these feelings go away for the most part. I now visit frequently and enjoy doing so. I still occasionally have some thoughts like this but I am growing out of it. Not sure what to say that will help besides make prayer and scripture study a DAILY activity. Enjoy doing it, not because you have to, but because you can learn about the savior. This part of my life was the hardest for me spiritually as well so if I would have acted on my urges to move out I may have lost my testimony in the only thing that matters to me now, Christ. Just try to enjoy your time as much as you can, it'll be short, you will move out eventually and hardly see them. I too have an independent spirit.

There are people that are born without a veil. God can use the animals just as he does with "angels" to help us and keep charge over us. What purpose would a veil serve for animals? Only to keep their natural instincts of constant "barking" at people or other things. I am not sure

You are right in your considerations of this subject matter. There are many references in the book of Mormon like you mentioned. Can search lds.org for them. From the blog of Denver Snuffer as I can't find my conference quotes at the moment. PLEASE others who do not agree with this author do not disrupt the thread. Hope this helps. There is a reference of the early book of mormon changes were Joseph Smith added a word somewhere clarifying "the son of God" when it referred to Christ as the Father. Don't know where it was. I think Hugh Nibley talks about this.

There is some good stuff in the lorenzo snow material. Each and everyone of us must achieve perfection or be damned (like the tel terrestial worlds people are damned because they cannot achieve further progress of those that are in the celestial world, stop of progress). Why are we going from line upon line, precept to precept, grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation? Because as the Lorenzo snow mentions We are perfect from the given laws. Thus we progress from law to law until we attain perfection. (Think endowment) This life is to learn perfection to the degree we are called upon (laws given to us). All things are possible with God to the willing soul. Even if we are eons away from the perfection of God we can through his infinite knowledge and a willing heart that doesn't break the unpardonable sin (breaking of covenants) can attain to perfection. Joseph Smith taught, we must learn our exaltation even beyond the veil, also in d&C "the person that gains more knowledge through his faith and obedience has a greater advantage in the world to come". I believe this refers to us being closer to perfection. We do not learn everything now. So how do we get there? The same way every God before us has done so. From grace to grace. Suffering brings perfection. That is why we suffer. Telestial World -> one overcomes through Justificaton, Washings Terrestial World -> one overcomes through Santification, Anointings Celestial World -> one overcomes through purification (the work of perfection), Sealings The Journey – Receiving our Endowment | Journey to the Fullness