SAMORMON

Sorry I dont have the time to read everything you've said, I've got work waiting for me, but thanks for your point of view I apologise if you or anyone else felt I attacked you in any way. This is my final entry on this forum.

I dont mean to give offense, but you do seem like the very same close minded Americans we have running the show this side. Did it occur to you that Ive already tried every avenue to resolve issues this side . . . Did it not occur to you that the reason for not naming names and pointing to specifics is both because what would it matter to you anyway . . . and anyone who has already done so has been worked out of their positions. The first couple of "sympathetic" commenters actually hit the nail on the head with their PERSONAL experiences in church employment . . . Im guessing you just have friends and acquantences that work for the church . . . well Im married to an employee . . . I get phone calls minute by minute . . .as things happen . . . I have friends that discuss things with me that only only church employed person can discuss with another who is familiar with church employment happenings. Just because Im not pointing fingers, doesn't mean it isn't true. My enquiry is in regard to whether we're sitting in a unique situation here or is this normal . . . As already explained by my supportive Filipino friend . . . Work is work, but you'd expect decisions about the kingdom of God to be made through the direction of God . . . not favouritism or "arrogant pride" as you so clearly pointed out that Im full of. I appologise that my "gossip" isnt detailed enough for you to run to your friends with and say "have you heard about so and so" Not to pick a fight, but you may want to go easy on the judgement calls . . . often those that accuse others of pride suffer from the same fate thinking they're better than the accused. Understand my frustration, we're White South Africans without a home in our own country, we face racist politics on a daily basis . . . wrong colour, wrong gender, wrong language, wrong whatever . . . we dont need it from the church too . . . They're supposed to be a level playing field not "you get the promotion cause you're the right tan, or you have a friend who demands that you get it, or I dont like your cousin so tough for you" The church already has a welfare program . . . and its not called church employment. This nonsense of "you cant fire me cause I just bought a half a million rand vehicle and I wont be able to afford it" even though they sit and do nothing to earn their salary . . . is nonsense. Why must your poor financial choices be the churches concern . . . or even the ordacity of "I need a raise because I now need xyz in my life" Many . . .not all . . . Many church employees take advantage of the church because "they have an endless supply of income from members" If your spouse is unemployed, how on earth do you resign from your job just because you'd rather be studying . . . and besides Ive earned my welfare, its time for the church to pay me back . . . Really . . ? Yes, I am now venting. Church members should get a backbone and stop abusing their "privileges" There is nothing wrong with the church itself, Ive never put doubt in anyones mind that the gospel is not true, Im just saying that there are members taking advantage of the kind hearted nature of Church programs and other members. The other reason for asking my questions here is to try and work out if we are unique . . . do I write a letter to the first presidency to bring it to their attention, but since it appears to be standard practice, Im guessing they're aware of it. Ive always had the view point that you cant complain if you dont do anything to resolve the problem . . . but once you've expressed your opinion to the powers that be (which we've done locally) . . . the consequences lie on their shoulders and its just our responsibility to sustain their choice. But its getting so unbearable that I felt I needed to bring it to someone elses attention . . . someone of greater authority . . .. but at the same time we're told not to bother the first presidency with our every concern . . . there is an order to things. Namely bishop, then stake president, then area president, etc. Nothing's getting done about it locally . . . thus my enquiry further a field. None of you on here are an authority, so why should I name names and give details . . . If I did that, it would then just become gossip. Pull your head out the sand and broaden your perspective Selek, the world is bigger than just your perfect family.

Thanks all . . . its good to know we're not just being "picked on" this side. Sorry I dont know how to Quote properly, but Windseekers said: "With what he told me it seemed like employment at the Church is NOT exempt from petty politics, interoffice grudges, gossip and infighting. The Church for whatever reason is more patient with behavior that would get someone thrown out on their ear in a regular business. He has seen toxic people removed from Church offices to the relief of the co-workers but they all seemed to be removed via promotion and hardly ever fired." That just doesnt sound like a practice that should be endorsed. With all the talk of Choice and Consequence, how can people then just turn around a "reward" bad behaviour while all affected get "Demoted" . .. either physically or spiritually by seeing the "wicked" progress while they are "punished" for being innocent. Im by no means implying that anyone should loose their jobs if they step out of line, but why should everyone else suffer because the powers that be are too scared of confrontation. . . . "Its better that one man perish than a whole nation dwindle in unbelief" Anyways, Ive been advised to not speak out too much for fear of harming the testimonies of any investigating the church and potentially having this blog used as canon fodder to further the bias against related employees at church employment. But I must confess that this is the problem with the entire South African society . . . its all about "human rights" . . . but only if you're guilty . . . if you're innocent, then just suck it up. I didnt think this would be the attitude within the church too. Thanks again for your support. I do know without a shadow of doubt that the gospel is true and each of us are responsible for our own salvation and can blame no one for our actions. We just need to make sure we aren't a stumbling block to others. Keep the faith for there is peace in living the gospel . . . it may just not be found in church employment.

Thanks Vort Its dificult for me as alot of what goes on is hear say, and as you said, its employment like any other. so as a spouse i cant walk in and tell my spous's boss to "catch a wake up" it wouldnt be appropriate in any work environment. At the same time its the last thing you would expect to hear about in CHURCH employment. Ive been told that I dont know the half of the nonsense going on . . . and if i did my testimony may be forever jolted as your friend's was. its not right, and there is no authority unaffected by the internal politics to go to within the country.

Hi everyone I dont want to be controversial, but do have a genuine concern about members abilities to live the Gospel according to the Saviour vs according to america. Ive been a member my whole life and have been taught to, and strongly believe in, sustaining my leaders. However there seem to be more and more "american" traditions being forced onto us and they're being labeled "church tradition". I live in South Africa where we have 11 official languages and as many cultures. The problem with the blurred line of american vs church culture seems more prevelent in church employment. My spouse, along with many friends are employed at the the SA church headoffice. they often get chastised about the way they do things. For example, many years ago an opostle said he loved to hear people prayer in their mother tongue. my spouse agrees with this as this is the language they have always used to communicate with their Heavenly Father. There is now an american running the show, who has put forward a "memo" that the only language that will be spoken in the offices will be english. My spouse was asked to pray one morning in devotional and then got rebuked for not praying in english. Im sure when the prophet goes to brazil or mexico, he doesnt demand all to only speak english. He is a guest there, not vice versa! The entire office has lost the spirit of working for Our Heavenly Father. There is so much politics and "digging a pit" for their neighbour to fall into at the offices I cant possibly believe that the desicions being made are under the direction of the first presudency. Im actually of the opion that they are misinformed of all that is going on here. . . as im sure if they knew, it would not be happening. We are counselled to bring our good traditions and add them to the "traditions" of the church . . . but how is it that so many american traditions are being labeled as "church" traditions and other traditions/cultures being frowned upon. As I memtioned, I in no way wish to be controversial about this. There is no doubt in my mind that the gospel is true and that we have a living prophet and apostles on the earth today. But I cant help feeling that there will soon be a split in the church because people are pushing their personal beliefs and preferences onto others and labeling them as doctrine . . .especially when it comes to more temporal affairs. How envolved is the first presidency with temporal affairs and are they really aware of all thats going on in church employment. I cant name a single person who is currently happy within church employment in SA due to all the internal politics. . . . And im talking about faithful members who have happily worked for the church for the last 30years who themselves confess it feels nothing like working for the Lord anymore. Is South African Church employment different to elsewhere or am I just over reacting? Its all good and well to say that if an apostle hasnt said it then its not doctrine, but arent all leadership supposed to be acting under the direction of the twelve? I dont want to "not sustain" my leaders, but how can i be sure that "the powers that be" are aware of whats going on in the "lower ranks" so to speak. How do you address such problem when it kinda stems from the very top of the area. Another member who Ive never known to say anything derogatory about anyone, simply made the comment that leadership here "is rotten from the top". Ive served in leadership positions under the same leaders about whom some of these comments have been made . . . and I have spiritually felt the opposite about what has been said about them. How can one person be so spiritual eclesiastically speaking but so corrupt or misguided temporally speaking. Surely one cannot also be the other. I hope im making sense to someone, i feel like im mostly just thinking out loud now. I look forward to your comments!