LaughingMan

Thats entirely true! Also, how quickly the membership is growing in Africa in general is astounding.

Its more an auto-biography... a lot of times the bio's would have to be edited just as much as a novel!!

Both valid points. I was merely broaching the possibility. Deeper thinking and consideration is something I enjoy, and enjoy sharing! There are so many things in the Church that we simply can't wrap our minds around. I read a great story recently, and if I recall correctly it was told by President Packer. It was about President McKay, and that they were having a meeting in the Celestial Room of the Salt Lake Temple. President McKay entered the room last, and was softly, as if to himself, repeating the words in the Endowment ceremony. All the Authorities in the room listened silently as he recited the words. As he finished, he chuckled softly, looked skyward and said "I'm *finally* beginning to understand." President McKay had been an apostle for roughly 60 years at this time. We ALL have a lot to learn!!!

What I was saying that I consider both to be Deity, but that the Son, while a God Himself, is not on the same level as our Father in Heaven, who, as the Father, has been working and refining Himself, and growing for a longer period of time. If "They will continue to grow and progress just as we do" does this mean that you don't believe the Father or the Son are omnipotent, omnipresent and/or omniscient right now? What will they learn in the future? Thanks Speaking on a if/then philosophical level, from a limited mortal understanding such as we are given in our mortal minds and bodies, its a logical fallacy to be attempt to truly understand the full extent of the power, presence, and knowledge of an Exalted Being. We cannot accurately understand such things, because to understand them would put ourselves into a higher echelon of spiritual understanding than we are capable of understanding. It would be similar to a person from the bronze age witnessing technologies that we in modern society have harnessed. Such a person might well consider us to be Gods.

Man oh man, I should've joined a few weeks ago so I could be in this thread from the very start!! I love discussions like this!!! Its a bit difficult to play catchup, so I'm just going to chime in here where Traveler left these tidbits and add things as they come to me! And, FWIW, these are all merely my own interpretations and conclusions as I have spent a great deal of my life pondering such things. Since we're using a mathematics analogy here, I feel like the calculus principle of magnitudes is delightfully applicable in attempting to possibly explain the differences between God the Father, and Jesus Christ. With magnitudes, two similar figures can have different total values. The number 1 could truly have a value of 1 (or 2,5,63, pick any number),or be greater or lesser, as I comprehend it. Its still the same number by definition but with different magnitude, its total worth (terrible word because I don't feel as though it accurately displays the intended sentiment, but I can't think of another word, and don't want to get off track with a thesaurus) can differ greatly. This is how I tend to consider the natures of God the Father, and Jesus Christ; both are Deity undoubtedly, however, due to experience, and eternal progression, the Father has an definitively higher magnitude. It is truth that we can be co-heirs, that we can share in the glory of our Father in Heaven and our Older Brother, however, due to the principle of eternal progression in which we believe, They will continue to grow and progress just as we do, so logically that should entail that we likely will not ever be in a position to be their equal, barring unknown circumstances that are entirely conjectural with our limited mortal knowledge of the Celestial experiences. The Godhead/Trinity (dependent on your personal belief) I feel is nearly identical in function and purpose to the First Presidency. They have the same purpose, and work together as One in functionality, but are inherently different persons. Also, I am of the belief that Heavenly Father and Jesus, in sharing Their glory with those of us who earn it due to our successes in our mortal test, further magnifies their Own glory. As another somewhat poor example, its similar to an artist who's entirely focused on their creations. He relies on his works to sustain his life, to feed him, clothe him, and house himself. If he is a poor artist, his work will not sell, and he will be without the things he requires, and go no further in life. However, if his product is good, his crafts are well made, accomplished and refined, his success raises him perpetually. His creations uplift his reputation, so to speak. (I told you it was a bad example, but perhaps look past those failing words! ) Lastly, (at least for this post) one last bit that is something I feel to be an interest thought, and personally one that I accept. With that being said, I am a person who comes to conclusions in regards to my personal beliefs in certain theological arenas, but definitely leave the door open for my own opinions to change... in essence, this is merely my current belief. I believe that Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten Son of the Father in the flesh upon the earth. However, I feel that as much as that is truth, that Jesus was either the Firstborn or Secondborn of The Father among spirit children as well. The point in this being that I feel it was His Birthright to be the God of this world; to create this world, to be the God of this world, to lay down His life for the sins of His brothers and sisters and be our Savior and King, with God the Father in a supervisory and assisting role. (The reasoning between Firstborn or Secondborn being that Lucifer or Jesus may have been the eldest, but we do not know. It would be similar potentially however to Jacob and Esau, or Ishmael and Isaac.) Thats the end for now!

I've considered this topic periodically for several years myself... Its likely one of those things that is currently beyond our mortal understanding, rather, the understanding that our physical selves can understand, which is what I've chalked it up to for the time being. However, I'm rather flexible in such things, so I continue to consider it from time to time... The only other conjecture that I might add to the discussion at this point is that personally, if the Holy Ghost had not yet had his mortal experience, seemingly the most appropriate time for him to accomplish that would be during the Millennium when Lucifer and his cohorts will be bound.

I agree with Praetorian. Have a calm, educated discussion with your Mom. Assure her that its something you've thought deeply about, prayed about, and learned as much as you can. Try to not take it personally if things don't go well, and don't overreact, because in my experience much of the time people tend to blow things they're not expecting a little out of proportion only to be accepting of things later on.

All great points, so far as I am concerned. In summation, I feel the Lord deserves our best efforts in all things; behavior, heart, kindness, understanding, devotion, energies, and resources... all personally, and in when it comes to building His Kingdom or his House.

I fail to remember what the precise number, but once attendance reaches a certain number, Wards split... so the meetinghouse you're thinking of quite possibly has a few Wards or Branches meeting in it.

Thank you to both of you... for all the reasons!!

My Dad was born in extreme southern Idaho, and I have family all through the Salt Lake valley... its like my second home! I'd love to move out there as well, but variables won't likely allow it for at least a few more years.

No problem! It's a fascinating watch!

Here in Southeast Missouri... we get humid cold, and summers with mid-90's and 50% humidity... Much prefer the drier climate of say, Idaho or Utah or Canada myself!

My Mom thought so too when she was an investigator... she'd investigated and attended nearly every Christian denomination before she met my Father, and none of them appealed to her for various reasons, some of which was the the natures of The Father and The Son and The Holy Ghost. =)

Jody, before you get too pumped up about going to Germany () know that the General Authorities send you where you are needed.... I wanted to go the Russia (I love cold weather) and I was called to the Philippines (I hate hot humid weather!)

Don't forget as well, that when they're built, and before the dedication ceremonies take place, they do guided tours and show the whole place!! The two times I've been to the temple (St. Louis and Provo), just walking inside makes it seem like my spirit is overpowering my physical form. It literally takes my breath away at times in the best kind of way.

In regard to the denial of Priesthood rights to African-Americans, I recently saw an exemplary documentary entitled "Nobody Knows". Its the story of African-American members of the Church. In short, there were at least two black men ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood before the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, Elijah Able and Walker Lewis. Able was a Seventy and served two missions for the Church. Both retained the Melchizedek Priesthood until their death. Able is buried in a cemetery in the Salt Lake area. The "consensus" stated in the documentary was that President Young instituted the ban as a "policy" not as doctrine. Though the policy today seems rather radical and exclusionary, it seemingly was intended as a way of keeping the peace in the Utah Territory between members of Southern and Northern persuasion at a time of great disunity between the States leading up to the Civil War, and the lingering ill feelings after the war. It was a policy that was continued after President Young's death. Subsequent Prophets declared they believed it to be a temporary policy, but nothing came of it otherwise until President McKay, who began earnestly praying for an answer to the situation, as did President Smith and President Lee. President Kimball continued the tradition, even going so far as to spend hours alone in the Salt Lake Temple after it was closed for the night until he received the answer that became the revelation in 1978. I was touched by something an African-American woman said in the documentary though... she stated that we are all aware of our missions on Earth before we join our mortal bodies and pass through the veil... which to her meant that she'd accepted the body she had, the skin color, and the knowledge of all the trials that she'd be subjected to.

The Youth in our local Ward had a chili cook off a few weeks ago....... yeah it happens!!! Firesides were exactly what they sound like in the earliest days of the Church. Leaders would speak at small bonfires to local groups of members before the advent of electricity, especially since so many of the members had no time during the day to devote. I'm not sure entirely if they're related, but FDR had what he referred to as Fireside Chats broadcast over the radio on a weekly basis during the Great Depression. Andy, I know what you mean. I've battled intense depression for years, and seen the abyss, and felt it drawing me in. The one constant that has kept me from being dragged down into intense mistakes in my life has been my faith. You must decide what is best for yourself. Either way, we'll welcome you to continue your dialogue with us. Oh, Lakumi.... I'm partly Socialist!

The simplest explanation that I know, is that we are judged according to our knowledge. The more one knows, the higher the standard to which they will be judged.

More times than I care to admit. Its one of my "short fuse" buttons. My best friends have always been minorities. Some of the best people I know are Muslim or African-american.

Its never too late to repent, or to be forgiven. The Lord will forgive. We're here to make mistakes, and making the same mistake twice isn't ideal, as we're to learn from our mistakes, but you are far from the only one to make such a mistake. I speak from experience. Talk to your Bishop.

I feel as though there is a large difference between forgiveness, and giving someone a potentially wide open scenario to repeat their own mistakes. I've no problem with your wife's parents wanting to see their grandchildren, but history is what we learn from. I am in no way saying that it would definitively cause an issue to develop, but the potential is there, and personally it'd make me extremely uncomfortable as well.

My name is Isaac Gabriel. It is a fitting name. The name of someone who laughs, but has great messages to share. I am 29 years old, and live in Missouri, though truly I feel at home most anywhere I am, so long as I am around people that I trust. I have grown up with two loving amazing parents who are both members of the church. My mother was a convert when she married my father and collectively (yours, mine and ours family) there are seven children including myself. All of the male children are active in the church (except myself at the moment), one of my sisters is an inactive member, another is Buddhist but attended church from roughly the ages 11-18, and the last is spiritual but not religious. I am the youngest by 16 years. My fathers side of the family has been in the Church since nearly the beginning, and has a long history. My progenitors were among the first to be baptized in the United Kingdom (specifically Wales). My great-great-grandfather was the last Stake President of St. Louis before the Stake was closed during the Extermination Order. Another traded suits with Parley P. Pratt in an attempt to prevent Pratts assassination, and Pratt was killed wearing my grandfathers suit. Two relatives owned property in Nauvoo, and a house still stands on the property one owned. The last I will mention was the first blacksmith in the Idaho territory. President Young sent him north from Salt Lake City to assist efforts in the Logan, Utah area, but he went a little too far... In general, strong faith characterizes my forebears, and I am no different. However, one of the greatest strengths, and simultaneous weaknesses is our stubborn nature. My faith has never been the question, but I am tormented. I over-analyze everything, and doubt myself and my capabilities to the extreme. My fathers grandmother had a vision once; she was being assaulted by the adversary and succeeded in fending him off, but as he departed finally, he told her implicitly that if he could not have her, he would come after her progeny ten-fold. I've never met him, but he's certainly made himself very much known in parts of my life. It is said that the greater your faith and your knowledge, the more Lucifer works at you. I know this is the truth because I've felt his work. It also is said that our Father in Heaven and our elder brother Jesus know us better than we know ourselves, as they know us personally, without the veil that clouds our memories of the pre-existence; conversely, it is not often thought that Lucifer, as our brother as well, knows us just as well. He knows our strengths, and he knows our weaknesses. He knows exactly where to hit us and how and where it counts the most. As earlier stated, I am a member. One could say I'm mildly active, even though I'm aware that is a bit of a logical fallacy. I go to church, but on a somewhat irregular basis at this point. I am far from perfect, I have my faults. I know that my faults are no greater or more insignificant than those of others, but having seen what I've seen and experienced that which I have experienced I am not entirely comfortable at this point making myself more of a fixture in my local singles Ward. I've bared my soul to my fellow single adults, in testimony, and as a substitute Sunday school teacher. When I was nearly 16, I lost one of my heroes. My paternal grandfather, one of the greatest men I've ever known, died. He was very ill and living in California, and gave up the spirit rather abruptly, and we were left without a chance to say goodbye. It was my first experience with the death of a loved one, and unfortunately my second came extremely quickly. Roughly six weeks later, I was at a mutual friends house with my best friend, and a fourth person. My best friend and I stayed in the house and the other two went out to shoot a tin can with the mutual friend. When the two came back inside, the removed the clip, but forgot about the round in the chamber, and my best friend was shot in the face and was brain-dead before he hit the floor. This has haunted me since the very second it occurred. I've not ever been the same since. Within six months, my maternal grandmother, who was seemingly the picture of health, collapsed suddenly in pain at her home, called my uncle, was taken to the hospital, and died the next morning. For many years, I refused help. My parents tried to get me to attend counseling, which I did. Unfortunately, I'm intelligent enough that I was fully capable of talking circles around the counselors, to appease my parents. Eventually, a few years later than most, I decided it was time to go on my mission. I received my patriarchal blessing, attended the temple for the first time (which was an immense experience that I will not at this time go into, and have only in the last 8 months discovered a fragment of the magnitude of it) and received a mission call to the Philippines Manila Mission. After my third week in the MTC, I had a massive panic attack that lasted days. I was sent home with the message that I had an immense ability to relate to people and reach them emotionally. I was told that my mission in life was my life. My life was my mission. I'd shown the willingness to serve, and that was enough, but that I was welcome to return to the field at any time I wished. I made my share of mistakes upon returning. I nearly got married to a girl who nearly joined the church, but freaked out and returned to her Baptist roots, and constantly told me I was going to burn in hell for all time. I lost my virginity to her, which was the mistake. The relationship was a learning experience which I did not learn from quickly enough. After we split, I made another awful decision, and dated an attractive young married woman who was separated. I've atoned for those mistakes. However the guilt, pain, loss and breaking of trust finally began to catch up with me, and crush me. I still admitted nothing so far as psychological issues, until last December. In the six years from the end of the previously mentioned relationship, until last December, I was in emotional hell. I admitted having no issues, but I was in immense pain. My family couldn't help me. I wouldn't allow them to help me. I'd have panic attacks, mood swings, go from exhaustion to bouncing off the walls, rage issues, constant fear and paranoia. I finally broke down and begged for help, but I'd silenced myself for so many years, I couldn't find the words. Its still difficult for me to open up, but I've forced myself to do just that. I have my bad days, and my good days... at this point, there are more negative than positive. Its a process feeling out the medications I'm on now, and balancing what I know is the truth, and the faith that I have, with the swirling, boiling emotions that permeate me at times. I've a combination of Bipolar, PTSD, Major Depressive and General Anxiety disorders, with myriad tendencies. Many of these are at odds with the way I've felt since I was a child, which tears at me from the inside at times. As a child and early teenager, I was known for my sensitivity and empathy. I still have those traits, but I'm far more guarded about them as a general rule. I feel as though I've rambled enough for now, and I feel like I've barely scratched the surface, but I'm glad to be here, and hope to be able to support and converse with all of you more in the future! Isaac