paracaidista508

No worse than ramming twinkies down ur throat, guzzling 64 Oz of doctor pepper and hitting the dessert table at the ward dinner for the third time. All violations by being excessive, but unless it's actually smoke, chew, beer, wine, coffee, tea doesn't seem like a violation to me. My understanding is that it isn't tobacco, just nicotine. I look at it just like the whole coffee/caffeine scenario. Coffee is outlawed, not caffeine. Hence all the monster drink guzzling people in my ward. Vaping does have the appearance of evil so yeah it will be shunned. Eating in excess should also be shunned as it is a clear violation of the wow, but it is a widely accepted part of our culture so we just do it anyway.

Then explain what you meant by: You tried to explain thusly: Then you really got to work on your wording. Even with your clarification and explanation I'm having difficulty seeing the bolded portion as anything other than saying he didn't do his job. So, if you're saying otherwise, I'd ask for further clarification. ** See above Can you actually corroborate this? I know billionaires (OK, I just know one billionaire, going on two if things go right) that can't make that statement about themselves. How can you make that supposition about an organization that owns no high speed transportation and have to stand in line like everyone else? *** Corroborate what? Are you saying the church does not have the financial ability to move someone around the globe??? The church is a "Billionaire" so to speak...many times over. How do you think these missionaries who have mental meltdowns or otherwise get sent home at the drop of a hat get home from Russia, Africa, Brazil or wherever overnight? On a plane. The church has an extensive network of travel connections, pre-contracted transportation of all sorts and as a last resort, rich membership who owns these same types of assets. Also, every GA out there is passported and visad for everywhere they need to go. Back to reality for a minute- it was only Texas so it doesnt take a Miracle to get there. I am lower middle class and I have the financial assets to get a plane ticket anywhere I want. I may not enjoy the pricetag, but I can do it. If I can, then the church with its Billions can do the same- probably much easier. As for a directive, I don't think anyone said that was the directive. In fact, I don't see anyone saying he gave a directive at all. I see people saying he wasn't given enough time to even issue a directive. OK, I got the month wrong. July was the month they were gone. And this vacation happens every year. Why do you think the board scheduled this that month? They KNEW the Mormons (most of them anyway) would be gone that month. *** Again. So now the world revolves around some people's vacations??? I think not. If it was important enough, they could have taken a break from vacation for 12 hrs and go vote. If all it takes is to say ur gonna be on vacation to delay a vote then anyone can call for a delay and then nothing gets done. Where did you get the bolded part above? Your comment that it was no secret to anyone is unfounded. Don't make a statement like that and expect it not to get challenged. If you can show a source, then fine, I'll apologize. Here is the source. I realize it is fairly obscure and many peole dont have access to it, but it is what it is: Heres the first one - Jul 13, 2015 http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/13/us/boy-scouts-gay-ban/index.html And the follow up on the 28th: http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/27/us/boy-scouts-gay-leaders-feat/ Where was the notification to the General Authorities? That there was a meeting that day? Or the subject of the votes? When were they alerted? Yes, I'm asking "what did they know and when did they know it?" Do you have actual documentation stating so? The official statement from the Church states that it was held at a time when the General Authorities are not in their offices. Is there any kind of timeline documented about who knew what when?

Response 1. Regards scheduled vacation....uh too bad. Like I said if it was important, they would have been there........all of them 2. 1st vote was on Jul 13 and that was of the smaller more senior comittee/ board or whatever. The final vote which required the entire scout exec board was on the 27th of Jul. If I knew about it, the lds members of the board knew of it. Additionally, three of the lds members were at the final vote and voted for the ban. The rest were on vacation. It was not a secret to anyone. 3. Like I said, if Pres Monson wanted all of them there on the record, then they would have. I'm pretty sure if that was the directive, they all would have been there.....vacation or not. The church has adequate resources to get them there in a pinch...in fact I bet they could get them anywhere in the world in less than 24 hrs. If they wanted to. 4. Yea, whatever. Like I said...if it was important enought, they would have taken some time from vacation to be there. They had notice. Now as for saying I accused President Monson of not doing his job: I never did accuse him of not doing his job. I posited some theories as to what may have happened,but that is just speculation as to how the job was done, not that it wasnt. That is the question:what was the church's priority at that time? If it was to just let the chips fall where they may and not interrupt a vacation, then so be it. No one really knows. No where did I say he wasn't doing his job. Don't make up a lie about what I said and expect it to go unchallenged. I'm pretty sure that as a forum member, accusing the prophet of not doing his job would be a violation of TOS and my post would have been addressed by a moderator. Don't lie about what I said. Our edit....accusing the prophet of not doing his job would be a violation of rule number 1 of the mormonhub rules. Would a moderator please review the post where carb says I accused the prophet of not doing his job and please suspend me for the appropriate amount of time if that is indeed what I did??

I'm overjoyed we are bailing on it. The minute the bsa caved and began the process of becoming a facilitator for the grooming of kids into the gay agenda, I checked out of it. The church should have walked a long time ago. Not to mention the lds population in general can't stand scouts and don't want anything to do with it, but participation and service in it was compulsory up to this point. Watch what happens now that we have effectively walked away from it. Our eagle rate is going to plummet. That alone is another topic, but the lds church has far more middle age female eagle scouts than any other chartering organization out there. So many fake eagles it makes ones head spin. Of course there are legit ones, but they are hard to come by. I was a huge cheerleader for bsa up till about 5 yrs ago. I got into many leadership positions where I saw how fraudulent the program was at our stake and even district level with the lds troops. I ended up with a fairly big scout position and the resistance to fixing our program was so intense even at the stake level I asked to be released. I got nothing done as not one person was willing to put in the effort or make the changes necessary to fix the problems. I have not been in any scouting positions ever again. I got called one more time but refused it. It was all but acknowledged they really do not care about scouting here. No more fos donations since then and I was one of the people who used to make up for a few of the other ward members lack of contributions to the fundraising quota. The way I see it, since we don't want to do it right it is better not to do it at all........good riddance

To be a bit more precise, it is the parents, the schools, the church etc who have softened the boys. As for the scouting activities with which are a bit more rustic, there are very few leaders left who even experienced anything tough as a kid. Most are the byproduct of a mushy scout program where they grew up. The current leadership is a byproduct of the garbage scouting which has been going on in the church for long time. Speaking only for my council area here which is overwhelmingly lds....the lds troops always get destroyed at the Camporees and other similar activities by the traditional troops. By and large the traditional troops are motivated, well funded, they are not restricted to one stupid spaghetti dinner a year, the kids all want to be there and their parents are on board. Lds troops? I have never sent one like that.

The current situation is also making recruiting difficult. I'm still in regular contact with my cop friends and they say that when they actually get funding to hire, they have hard time getting qualified candidates. Currently their biggest pool is former military. The overall us population is morally and physically unfit for police service. (Oddly enough fewpolice agencies require in service fitness tests after the academy, but that is a topic for another day) . I asked about lds candidates since a few of my friends are lds ( u can tell the applican is lds by the app stating mission service and eagle). They said they are getting a lot less than we had in the past.....a lot less. And of the ones they do get, they are not any more qualified than anyone else. Mostly they are in sad physical condition and then the moral issues run a close second. Their overall opinion of the recruit pool in general is that Americans dont have the intestinal fortitude to "warrior up" for a job that frankly involves much less violence than is portrayed on TV. That is why they are getting so many former military because they are not afraid to engage and they want the challenge.

Yep becuz times have changed. Like I said, the guys are softer than the girls. Thats ok, someone has to help decorate for the RS banquets.

If I recall correct, some of them were on vacation and didnt show up. As I stated earlier, if it was actually important to the church we exclude gays from being leaders for our boys then Pres Monson likely would have made sure they were there to vote. If a vacation is all it takes to excuse someone from doing their job for a high-profile culture changing action such as this then a vacation can be used as an excuse for anything. http://www.ldsliving.com/Church-Deeply-Troubled-by-BSA-Decision-Re-evaluating-Scouting-Program/s/79566

I'm on board with whoever said it was a lot to cover and would make for a lengthy meeting. That said it is stuff that needs to be done so just do baby steps. If you dump it all on theSeptember snowflakes all at once they will melt. As for long meetings, I was involved an a scouting position in my stake and the sp was a guy who was there most times and made it a point to let us all know he holds lengthy meetings. He was right except most the time nothing was accomplished. I whined about it a bit and was given the too bad so sad response. I stopped going after a whilevel. It is a given that he is the sp and he or one of his folks can hold a marathon meeting if they wish, it the whole lack of respect for peoplesale time and not accomplishing much is a no go. Just make sure to respect people's time and be efficient. For those who choose not to cooperate and be a team player....dump them.

No

Dr lemon, Now you know how everyone else feels when they are put on the witness stand and grilled by an attorney who's only mission is to destroy your credibility. I spent a career as a cop and every time on the stand it wasent the evidence which was attacked, it was me, my integrity and usually a bit of racist accusations thrown in for good measure. And for the record not one time was my interrogator in a suit ever correct in that regard. Spotless career and track record. It is part of your job to be that way and the other part is to be on the receiving end. Sucks but that is life.

I'm good with tats...I wouldn't shun you. I'm looking at getting another myself. I'm probably nothe supposed to button one made me remove my other ones so I guess its not a big deal.

I have no idea what the vote count was way back when the bsa voted on whether to let openly gay kids participate,but I do recall virtually all the lds leadership on the council not showing up as they were on vacation. It wasn't a suprise vote so if the church really wanted to stick with bsa and stand up for our beliefs then they would have shown up to vote. That being said I think the church was just trying not to look bigoted in the eyes of the world so doing the no-show and hastening the inevitable destruction of scouting as we know it was probably the lesser evil. That being said, scouting was falling apart inside the lds church anyway. When we have so many adult leaders who don't take the kids camping, do backpack trips and show up to church adultctivities in skinny jeans and speaking g with a lilt it is little surprise we have come to this. As for the skinny jeans and lilt...that's in my ward right now. Many will say that camping, outdoor skills, hunting etc are irrelevant in our society. Sure that is true I terms of how we exist, but there is nothing better to build confidence than to have to live a little rough to appreciate how easy we have it. Additionally, when a young man makes a big game kill, carries out and butchers his own meat he learns self reliance and the confidence to do hard things. Hunting isn't a part of the bsa, but ties in with the whole outdoor experience and character building thing. Our church went from rough frontier and self reliant types to having a population of men who have better skin and softer hands than their wives. Funny thing, our stake did a trek a ways back and on the average, the women and girls were much hardier than the average male. The boys and most of the men were shocked their women folks were tougher than them. Anyway...this was all baked in when we no showed for the vote. It is just as well as we (lds) are not interested in that type of program. It is sad that for all these years church leadership has harped on young men about getting their eagle,but now they have essentially just erased it from the the list of things that make you a better person. I'm thinking they never really believed that in the first place.

I'd specifically like to see the empirical data showing how eagle scouts are more likely to go on missions, then marry in temple and then have kids and then also have kids who are active. We have been told this ad infinitum over the years, but I see lots of rm with eagles getting divorce ed or not marrying at all because they are well....who knows. Mebbe their mom earned the eagle for them and now they realize they got a free trophy lol. Just curious. I have done all the above cept the mission thing. I'm told lack of mission service is actually the real reason people fall away or don't check all the lifetime achievement boxes. Anyway, would be interesting to see. I guarantee they have the numbers on this. Too bad we will never see it, might be interesting.

Too bad the lds social services mental health counselors / psychologifts can't help out vets with mtbi and ptsd. At least here I az they offer nothing. I work with a couple lds vets and one had been referred to social services by his bishop. They told him they do that deal with military trauma..they don't get exposure to it. They recommended the VA. They need to go to a va vet clinic sometime answer listen to what goes on in there. I'm thinking they would go out of their way to find an alternative for lds vets.

Re bathing suits...we had a ward swim party where we had a couple teen girls and a mom show up in bikinis. That was all fine and dandy till another sister in her late 30s was there in an extremely modest one piece and all I can say is all eyes were on her. Oh my. I'm sure no one forgot that sight. Made Victoria secret models look pitiful. Good thingame she was in a one piece or the women would have been checking her out too..lol

"Kind of ironic that they have such a double standard at BYU. Its always bothered me. Not sure why we have to conform to the world." yes that is a double standard...of course watching the cheerleaders is fun so I guess it is ok.

So- for those of you who went on Missions/ or who are very familiar with the rules. Is this fighting Elder going to get in trouble for fighting back? https://www.ksl.com/?sid=43502837 Personally I think he ought to be given a medal...but Im not a nice guy. An as for his buddy not helping him....udumnno. Maybe the fighter told him to stay put. Im sure they have it sorted out already.

Ha this circus gets better by the day. I suppose sometime soon the FOS folks are going to start beating us up over donating so they can build a 3rd bathroom at each scout camp.

OK- so what is the penalty for not serving a full time mission then?? Surely we are not letting little things like a war get in the way of spreading the gospel. We have consequences for everything else- six months probation for certain WOW issues, 1 yr (if all goes well) for sexual sins and so on. This is where I'm not seeing it as a big deal. If it wont keep you out of the temple even when you feel you have not done anything wrong then where is the sin? I have never repented for not going on a mission. I felt the military was where I should be for whatever reason that was. I made it very clear after coming home I had no intention of serving a mission and didnt feel as if I did anything wrong. That is the answer I gave to my Bishop and Stake pres when they asked me if I intended on serving a mission now that I was back and I said "no." I left with a recommend and was married 2 weeks later- still am in fact and happily I might add. Sure this was nearly 30 yrs ago but nothing has changed in regards to sinfullness or lack thereof.

I dont think it is a big deal. There are a litany of GAs who did not serve missions. Of course the majority of them were excused because WW2/Korea was going on and they served there. That being said- nothing kept them from going on a mission after the war was over. After all, the Military does not issue you a wife so if they wanted to go, they could have. Setting wartime aside- Pre Eyring didnt serve a mission and went into the military instead. No war going on. I dont know why he did that, but he did. He is a General Authority and I have not heard about anyone giving him the "what-for" because he didnt serve a mission. What isnt ok is to not do anything in lieu of serving a mission. It is also not ok to turn into a deadbeat after serving a mission thinking you checked the box and are good to go. Some will say if one (male) does not serve a mission and you were not honorably excused then you are by default committing a sin no matter what. I would say that church policy as it has been exercised in the past probably negates that theory. Sin was then what it is now and I dont recall "failure to serve a full time mission" being listed as a bona fide sin anywhere. Go ask your Stake President how many recommends have been denied a priesthood holder who has not served a mission for any reason at all (who was eligible when 18-19 years old). The condition being that the person also cannot feel as if they have sinned and feel no need to repent. I'm betting on a big fat ZERO. All that said- missions are good for whoever chooses to go serve and do a good job. Same goes for the military, peace corps, college or working at Burger King. I'm not as well read as some on this forum so I'm sure someone will come along and throw up some word salad and say, "see right there---its a sin! If you read this, and compare that with the other and say abracadabra you will see it too. So and so is an exception to the rule because of X."

Aka.....relaxing

Why would the wow need to clarify? Morphine is derived from opium which is a naturally occurring substance. Plenty of mormons popping pills prescribed by a dr. And no one blinks an eye. It is extremely addictive though. When med marijuana is appropriate for me I'll be on it for sure. I suffer from chronic pain from blast injuries to bones and internal organs. Don't take anything for it for ten yrs now because pain killers prevent me from working and frankly I'm extremely susceptible to addiction to them. I love them so I dont even ask the dr for them. Mj will be welcome relief as minimal as it will be.

Maybe even marrying more than one woman will be legalized...heaven help us

Regardless if high altitude or mental illness etc is too blame....still wound a bit too tight.