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paracaidista508

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Posts posted by paracaidista508

  3. To serve or not to serve

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    15 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

    I think he needs to read the following verse of scripture a little closer, "Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brothers should go unto the house of Laban," (emphasis added) -- Literally we could also say here, "The Lord hath [counseled] me..."

    But then again, maybe Laman and Lemuel had it correct and since Lehi didn't use the word "shall" (at least what we have in scripture) they really 'should' have just stayed in the tent and let Nephi go and just follow "counsel" since commandments only begin with "shall" not "should." 

    Scriptures are pretty clear "should" and "shall" are both used with commandments, and when a prophet of the Lord says, "The Lord expects it." I am not sure how anyone could interpret any other way.

    "Wherefore, [the Lord expects me] that though and thy brothers should go..." A commandment is an expectation to do something.

    He told him to go kill laban....in person. Maybe it is just me, but I'm thinking that is a bit different.  I'm sure for you guys it is exact the same because when you were 19 you had a better testimony. Mine sucked (no kidding) and a lot of it had to do with my experiences that I won't bore you with because you wouldn't even believe it if I told you..i will, but only if you want me to.

     

     

  4. To serve or not to serve

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted · Edited by paracaidista508

    7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

     

    Okay... let's analyze this one.  How many is "enough to leave a young impressionable kid with that belief" in your ward?  30?  10?  5?  How many of these early returned missionaries in your ward are impressionable?  All of them, only some of them?  What's the cross-sectional average of impressionable early returned missionaries and number of awful people in wards that makes it reasonable to stop teaching young men that it is their Godly duty to go on a mission?  75%?  50%? 10%? 1?

    And it's not at all a consideration that maybe these early returned missionaries are actually not hurting from awful people (because there are awful people everywhere, I'm sure this is not their first exposure to them) but from their own feelings of failure from not having completed their mission?  This is actually a very common feeling, even in athletes that, for no reason within their control, end up getting injured and can't finish the race.

    I know you think you are funny and you really are. Esp in the light majority of early returns are for mental illness. I'm sure you are kidding about the stats you ask for because you think they don't exist. I have two links to papers for you to read. You likely won't read them, but if you do you will see how the church's organized response and methods of dealing with early rm  is severely lacking. There is also good commentary about the issue in regards to the church and members too. Interestingly, the three most unsupportive people to the eraly return are the stake pres, bishop and ward members. Overall the handling of the issue is a hot mess for a lack of a better descriptor.

    Happy reading if you are willing to:

    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/irp/

    Go to the article re experience  of early return missionary parents

     

     

    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1555&context=irp

    This one goes directly to the paper

    Enjoy!

     

    I nearly forgot...you ask how many people does it take to leave a lasting impression? If it is the bishop...only one.

     

  5. To serve or not to serve

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

    Wow.  Your ward are a bunch of awful people.  My ward isn't like that and thank goodness for that.  I mean, of course, we have our handful of busy bodies and gossip mongers, but they're a very small minority.  You make it sound like Mormons are awful people.  I don't see that in my neck of the woods.

    I wouldnt say the entire ward was awful and i had to scroll back to see if i ever said such a thing....and i didnt. My commentary on this is how as an lds culture, early return missionaries are not treated too well.  By everyone? No, but enough to leave a young impressionable kid with that belief. It is such a problem the general authorities have been addressing it. We already have a huge problem retaining honorably returned missionaries in the church after somehting like 10 yrs or so. With the early returns...I bet the retention rates of these guys are much worse.

    It is a cultural thing and as a collective, lds people are extremely awkward when it comes to how to deal with some kiddo who came home early for any reason,  much less something negative. I suspect most people are awkward about stuff like that, but this is our problem, not society at large.

    Prime example...kid comes home after only 4 months. He is in the main priesthood gathering prior to. Elders and HP breaking off on their own. Bishop gets up and let's him know we are all comitted to helping him get back out there. He just answered up...I'm not going back out. Bishop said we will still encourage you....anyway meeting moved on. 

    I actually really like that bishop, but that was about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. He came home early because he hated it. That's what he told my son, not me. They are friends.

    Anyway...that was a few years ago and Im no longer in that ward but am aware he never went back out. 

     

  6. To serve or not to serve

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

    Yep. That's me. Ignoring the prophets and apostles.

    :roflmbo:

    Admitting you have a problem is the first step towards your becoming a much more likeable person. I have no intention on becoming a more likeable person so the admission of my problems has no likelihood of helping me to change.

  11. Asked not to wear pants to church

    in Learn about The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints

    Posted

    I was just reading comments on another forum which was about an lds topic. Check out the comment in the middle reference a woman in pants:

    2 years ago

    I have another theory.Take a stroll into any fast and testimony meeting and you'll find that it's dominated by women. Without exaggeration, and if you're LDS you know it to be true, 90% of the people getting up are women. And they cry, cry, cry. The infamous tear-filled testimonies about finding lost car keys and other such nonsense almost always come from, yep you guessed it, women. At the risk of coming across as a misogynistic jerk, I'll just say it, women are illogical and emotional! They buy into the church, with all its sappiness, hook line and sinker. Walk into relief society and you'll find a bunch of crying women happy to be there. A few exceptions, maybe an angry woman with short hair wearing purple pants off the side somewhere. Walk into elders quorum and you'll find half of them asleep, the other half staring at their phones, and then a literal handful of weirdos who are really into it that are giving the rest of them guilt trips about not being more into 

    Purple pants lol

  13. To serve or not to serve

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    13 hours ago, paracaidista508 said:

    As for me, until you prove you are Spencer W Kimball reincarnated I'm gonna go by what he actually said as opposed to what some self -appointed prophet like you wants to tell me he really meant.

    I don't believe I'm addressing Kimball's talk at all. I don't think I've addressed it all. I'm pretty sure all I said is that we should be concerned with what we should do and what we should not do and that covers things.

    That's what this whole controversy is built on. Pres Kimball is who spoke at conference and essentially read a new commandment over the pulpit if you believe what some would say and that is what started the whole "all young men should..." deal. We have been quoting it all along as have you. You have just been cutting and pasting from our responses. Do you need the link? Thought you had this stuff all memorized.

  14. To serve or not to serve

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    7 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

     It felt like you seemed to be taking that as if I were trying to argue that the shoulds and the shalts are the same thing. Calling that a lie seems a bit ridiculously antagonistic and over the top.

    Too bad... don't argue that way and people wont think that is what you are doing.

    I'm not saying that any of them use that wording. Does that mean it isn't true that we should or should not obey the commandments? Obviously you understand, based on "Certainly every male member of the Church should fill a mission, like he should pay his tithing, like he should attend his meetings, like he should keep his life clean and free from the ugliness of the world and plan a celestial marriage in the temple of the Lord." Which really has me wondering -- if you, as you clearly do, understand my point, then what are you arguing against? Did you confuse my ideas with other things others have said?

    It gets easy to get confused by your arguments specifically as it applies to this quote. You went back and forth half a dozen times explaining why should and shall are interchangeable and at the same time saying they are not. I'm not that smart, but I am easily able to pick up on a circumlocutory argument which is specifically crafted to get a message accepted without the receiver knowing they have been duped. I am well aware some (to include you) regard any commandment or suggestion or whatever as an explicit order to be followed unquestionably. That is your prerogative, but don't think we all will march off into the sunset with you because it is your hobby. You tried to get me to agree the words meant the same without you ever saying they do. This is the kind of things a propagandist does to sway those to his side.

    The gospel is supposed to be taught in simple terms so even a child can understand. Perhaps my understanding may be just like a child. That said, when you discuss just like I explained above you confuse the issue. Pres Kimball explained it just right in simple clear terms. He said we SHOULD prepare to serve a full time mission. He also said full time mission service was not mandatory for anyone. With that statement he didn't follow it up with a "yea well you don't have to go on a full time mission, but if you don't be prepared to pay for your dirty sins." It was not followed up with any condition, therefore one is not sinning by not going on a full time mission.

    You can debate that till the cows come home if you like- remember it is pointless to debate the willfully ingnorant. Until you get Kimball's talk changed- I choose to just understand it like it is written as opposed whatever word salad you want to turn it into. 

     

  15. Caught by a contractor!

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by paracaidista508

    that's pretty funny. My platoon in Iraq used to get fired up before misisons playing all heavy metal....it makes you want to destroy stuff sometimes. Anyway was good to get them on the mood as if they needed help. They were surprised at this Mormon guy's choice when it was my turn to choose- always seek and destroy by Metallica.

     

  16. To serve or not to serve

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted · Edited by paracaidista508

    5 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

     I'm not making the point that all sins are equal in gravity. That seems to be your inference.

    Please reference the post where I said all sins are equal in gravity or even inferred they are. I said no such thing and that is a lie.

    We shouldn't lie. (you need to follow your own advice) We shouldn't kill. We shouldn't covet. We also shouldn't stay up too late, eat too many donuts, or park in a disabled spot without a pass. These things are not all equal, but they all fit nicely under shouldn't, the 'shalts' and the 'shoulds".

    And as far as commandments go - none of then say should not, they pretty much say shalt not. Big difference. That doesn't mean because two different sins we are told we shall not do are equal in seriousness. Theft, adultery, and murder are all different, but we shalt not do any of them.

    What about that is willfully ignorant? What, exactly, am I trying to justify that I shouldn't?

    Beats me, I'm not the ignorant one. Kimball's talk says what it says.

    Because we've been commanded to do or not do something it no longer fits into something we should our should not do?

     Any English textbook will tell you the difference between the two words. You don't get to take the word shall and change the meaning. Shall is a command. Should is a suggestion or opinion. While replacing the words can be done and have essentially the same meaning, that also is contingent upon the intent of the author. Sometimes it conveys the same message and sometimes it does not.  As far as the scriptures and talks given by prophets, I'm pretty sure you do not get to change the words they used in order to change the meaning so you can use it for your own personal agenda. That is the prophet's calling, not yours. I know you would kill to have that role, but I'm afraid mormonhub and your home is the only audience you get right now.  If you want to do that with your kids (and I'm sure you roll like that) then go for it. As for me, until you prove you are Spencer W Kimball reincarnated I'm gonna go by what he actually said as opposed to what some self -appointed prophet like you wants to tell me he really meant.

    I'm concerned with what I should do and what I should not do. You should be concerned with the same, as should we all. Nit picking over whether something is a "commandment' or not doesn't answer that question in every case. 

    Depending upon whether or not something is a commandment does make a difference to me. In the case of a church talk from a prophet, I'll read what he says and then decide what to do. Ill likely do what I'm told. If given options, I'll pick one that suits me...after all I have been given an option. In this case, he said it wasn't mandatory to do the full time thing. I'm not worried I'll go to hell for not going on a mission. If I had only known about his quote when I was a kid...that would have been nice. Instead I was lied to and told it was a commandment and I had no option. Imagine everyone's surprise when I said, well ok, I'm still going into the Army. Turns out it is optional. I had all the intent to disobey and I did....except I was disobeying a commandment that didn't even exist. Granted, my decision was selfish in the context of me believing this was a commandment so yea I had the intent of breaking it. I'm sure I'll be held to some account later on for having the intent to break a commandment. Given the context of the situation, I'm pretty sure it isn't gonna be a problem. Had I known what Kimball actually said as opposed to what everyone was parroting, well I would have had ammo- a-plenty to shut that one down. If I had the cojones to do what I did believing I was doing wrong, imagine the pushback if I knew people were lying to me or at the very least were telling me something which is a half truth and when presented as not optional makes it a lie or at the very least- incomplete.

     

    Certainly every male member of the Church should fill a mission, like he should pay his tithing, like he should attend his meetings, like he should keep his life clean and free from the ugliness of the world and plan a celestial marriage in the temple of the Lord.

    While there is no compulsion for him to do any of these things, he should do them for his own good.

    Someone might also ask, “Should every young woman, should every father and mother, should every member of the Church serve a mission?” Again, the Lord has given the answer: Yes, every man, woman, and child—every young person and every little boy and girl—should serve a mission. This does not mean that they must serve abroad or even be formally called and set apart as full-time missionaries...

    Buenos Noches

  17. To serve or not to serve

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted · Edited by paracaidista508

    1 hour ago, DoctorLemon said:

    Full disclosure: I went on a mission and I was not very good at it.  I have to live with the consequences.  As I mature in my testimony, I realize what an awesome responsibility missionary work is, and wish I could have done better.  (Maybe I can make up for it a little by helping people on this site!:))

    Thanks for the honesty with this disclosure...you do see the difference though right? You went and probably got an honorable release or whatever it is called...obviously I wouldn't know. That gets the good ole RM box checked and now you are good to go.

    Lets just say that for the guys who had conduct issues, were lazy, got in fights, didn't do their daily reading etc...so long as they finished their mission and didn't get sent home no one will know otherwise and they reap the same rewards as those who did everything they were supposed to. Perhaps not in the afterlife, but I'm sure you get my drift. They get the benefits while the guy who says im not going cuz im not gonna do it gets stigmatized for his honesty.  The dishonest who go and are a total flop on the job get the heroes welcome home...for just going and that's about all they did for two years. I dont know one rm who doesn't have a story about somene who shouldn't have been there stayed the whole time and made everyone's life miserable all the while accomplishing nothing. Always put them with the good missionary to fix them and after two years no change. Sent home with a clean bill of health and no one knows otherwise. We had one in our ward several years ago. The good missionary looked like he wanted to kill himself. I have no idea how that turned out, but I bet I can guess correctly.

    Not any different than military veterans in general. I served with people,who cowered in vehicles during firefights, didn't return fire etc on multiple occasions and they have the same discharge paperwork I got. Honorable. 

    Not trying to rag on you. Just pointing out how things really are.

  18. To serve or not to serve

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    Just now, MormonGator said:

    So heartbreaking. Maybe if the church didn't pressure all young men so much they wouldn't have to go though that. 

    Acceptable casualties.

    Speaking of: When I got medevac'd from Iraq I saw a very disturbing scene at the hospital I was at. I recall one morning after breakfast seeing a soldier in a wheelchair with both legs in halos which is because they were shattered by a bomb. He was moving along the sidewalk with those grabbers people use to reach items and was picking up cigarette butts. It was about 20 deg f outside. I went and asked the sergeant in charge of them why they had him out there doing that and he responded well its good therapy dont you think? After all what good other than that can he really do? Anyway I went out and helped him pick up cigarette butts until I got hauled in by my commander and counseled about making martyrs out of non deserving people. Apparently the kid had a drug addiction which the army created by endles opiod prescription and this was their way of cleaning up his bill of health. 

    He was an acceptable casualty and since he wasn't on the battlefield, the superstars figured they knew best how to help him recover. K kinda like our membership knows best with our "casualties."

    Our way to help early returning missionaries recover and return is to humiliate them. That isnt what the bishop and the parents do. I think they do what they can, but the membership are the ones who make it an ordeal unless the missionary is totally focused and proactive. That isn't what the church would have us do, but that is what happens. If they dont return, then we constantly remind them they didn't meet the standard. This isn't generally overt reminder, it's just the constant reminder with just the way business is run in the church that they are reminded they are a second class citizen. I watched this happen over and over again for several years in my old ward.

    Generally the way the person handles it really determines if it will have a negative affect on their life. In cases where it is mental problems and such, it's really too bad because they either announce it to get people off their back and then have that info hanging over their head or keep it to themselves and just get regarded as a loser. As for people like me who just went in the military- well we just have to accept the fact that a good portion of the lds membership holds a poor opinion of the military as an organization, much less as an alternative for a mission. I didnt do it for an alternative, i spent over 20 yrs doing it. While many wave the flag on holidays, not many back it up with action. To be fair, neither does the average American. We are supposedly more patriotic and better than the average but that just isn't true. Matters not to me. Not everyone has the nerts to go to combat much less repeatedly. I'm game though.

    I will vigorously defend other people when they are being unfairly treated re the mission stuff. Since they are all under 25 yrs old when this happens, they handle it much different than a middle aged guy like me. I'm not too diplomatic and speak freely when I feel like it. They may just feel like they have to shut up and take it.....and that's just it.

     

     

  19. To serve or not to serve

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

    I know someone who is a stand up guy and his son went home early on a mission. It was for medical reasons, but my fear is that people will gossip or talk about it and rumors will be spread. So I know what you mean @omegaseamaster75. It's my fear that some will view them differently as well. 

     


    They will gossip about him. My last ward has over half the young men come back early.....even the local singles wards have them all on radar so everyone already knows they are "losers". Thats not my descriptor btw, thats what one of the ysa girls who was at our house said a couple months ago.  Totally screwed. A couple of them tried to get ahead of it and just announced it was for mental problems. So yea they are even worse off than the others because frankly there's no fixng metal problems, just management

  20. To serve or not to serve

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted · Edited by paracaidista508

    1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

    Do they really? All of them? Are all commandments ever given phrased with "shall"? Is that you're peculiar personal take on doctrine? If it doesn't use some version of the word "shall" in the phrasing, please disregard?

    But even if we took it as truth that what you say is right? Do you really fail to understand that we "should" do those things we have been commanded to do, regardless of the phrasing, but that is not ALL we "should" do. There are a great many things we "should" do and a great many things we "shouldn't" do, and when we do not do things that we "should' do it's problematic and when we do things we "shouldn't" do it's problematic.

    I suspect you fully well understand this. But as I said before, you can't argue with someone who chooses to be willfully ignorant on some matter or another in order to justify themselves.

    You're right. You're entitled to your opinion.

    Ok shall/ shalt whatever. Gospel doctrine class back row sniper right here folks. 

    So you saying shalt not kill is the same as should not? 

    Also thought you told someone else not to debate willful ignorance a couple pages back. Perhaps you should follow your own advice. I have no reason to change my opinion. The words of Kimball say what they say. Get over it. 

  23. Asked not to wear pants to church

    in Learn about The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints

    Posted · Edited by paracaidista508

    5 hours ago, Grunt said:

    I’m silently waiting to become Bishop so I can reveal my orthodox agenda, enforce linger longer EVERY Sabbath, and exchange the pianist for a bagpipe band   

     

    Thank goodness for the bagpipes...just about every ward I have been  in sings like they are all on anti depressants....probably a bunch of them are trying to keep up with sister Smith and her perfect life I'm sure. We need a black choir to get things back to motivating. 

     

  25. To serve or not to serve

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted · Edited by paracaidista508

    20 hours ago, askandanswer said:

    I think you might be placing too much emphasis on a 40 year old quote. I don't think it would be too hard to find far more recent statements from apostles and prophets emphasising the obligation of all worthy, capable young men to serve a mission. They're out there if you put in the effort to look. One talk that comes to mind, given within the last ten years, is the exhortation to "raise the bar" when it comes to missionary service. As another example of changing times, there also seems to be a greater encouragement for older couples to serve a mission now than there used to be.

    So you are saying I can look for more modern scripture to suit my personal agenda? Well that's cool. Can I write some too?
    The Kimball quote being thrown around is the standard one which is used to tell young men they are required to serve a fill time mission. They just don't use the full quote.

    You know, now I see why churches back in the day liked when people were illiterate. They could tell them whatever they wanted and the masses wouldn't know any better. Kinda like now except it is the parents and self appointed backroom clergy who quote a talk....at least what they want to have heard and use it as a form of manipulative propaganda. Why not have someone read the entire thing, study it and make up their own mind. Right now we start as soon as someone has cognitive thought and essentially tell them what their punchlist is for their life.  We want our kids to go on missions so badly we are willing to lie and/or and with hold info from them so thoey will go. No one likes it when you look something up and it doesn't say what they told you it