[Would the love of Heavenly Father take away agency?]

11 minutes ago, Fether said:

I understand it to be similar to watching a questionable movie or listening to questionable music. Would you watch or listen to it with your grandma in the room? What about when she is 100 miles away and no chance of her there with you.

It really doesn’t matter what you do when your grandma is there, those actions are compromised due to, among other things, an image you grandma has of you that you want to uphold.

We aren’t here to show God that we can act good, but show that we can become old, that we are good. That “be” and “are” is compromised if we always feel such a powerful emotion in us. Or we feel we are being watched by the grader all the time.

This is also correct but I think there's more to being in God's presence than just a simple avoidance of guilt.

[The Meaning of Atonement]

Right off the bat, I really don't like how he's written this piece. I'm looking for a summary of it and it doesn't seem to be at the beginning and it's not at the end. And at the beginning, he starts this story up and it really just sounds like a load of waffling.

What exactly is this article proposing here?

[Would the love of Heavenly Father take away agency?]

I've been thinking about this a long time here. And while I have been, I've also been looking high and low for the quote I mentioned in the OP, but alas I cannot find it at all.

Nevertheless, at the same time, I also feel like I have misunderstood my own question. I think that even if we were Heavenly Father's presence, we would still definitely have agency as we know and feel that we aren't actually deprived of his love then. But if we WEREN'T in his presence AND we remembered and felt just a hundredth part of a finite portion of God's love, how could we resist doing whatever we could to get back into his presence? Also think about the fact that God's love for us is literally infinite.

And then think about this. In D&C 19, there is this passage that we all know.

Quote

 

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

 

It talks about the pain Jesus Christ had to suffer when performing the Atonement. This revelation was directed at Martin Harris who, at the time, had committed a serious sin and was experiencing great distress just from that. And that was, as we see, the smallest portion of pain that is felt compared to the full reality that Christ took upon himself.

Now, we also know that there is an opposite in all things. Alma 36:21 clearly states, "Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy." It makes very much sense that in contrast to such pain, there is an equal amount of such relief, happiness, love, and bliss. And this combined with knowing that God's love for us is truly infinite stands to reason that, again, were we to remember the love that we felt in a much greater amount than we usually do, we would do anything to get back to him, including taking our own lives.

It could also be that even in our premortal lives, the love of our Heavenly Parents that we felt was carefully limited in order to give us agency, and as we progress and continually choose the right, we can feel that love in greater and greater amounts. This would also explain how Satan and a third of the hosts of heaven could possibly have done what he did in the presence of his father and his god.

[Would the love of Heavenly Father take away agency?]

It is said (I think by Joseph Smith although please let me know if I'm wrong) that were we to feel even just a small little fraction of the love God has for us, we would all willingly commit suicide just to see him again.

If this is true, does that mean that whenever we are in the presence of our Heavenly Father or even within his love, none of us could ever resist obeying him?

But then, why did Satan go so far as to completely go against God?

Perhaps technically God's love doesn't take away our agency but it's so wonderful that most souls, not all but most, can't resist it and thus it's partly why our minds are veiled in this stage of our lives.

[I can think of only 2 reasons why men would want polygamy]

On 8/31/2016 at 3:27 PM, Zarahemla said:

God of War Saga

wat r u casul? Everybody knows Ninja Gaiden Black/II is the best.

[Visions of Glory]

5 hours ago, LeSellers said:

Here is one of the tamer passages:

Lehi

Pffftt... I very strongly suspect that's what's going on too, judging from the things I've read, mainly Key to the Science of Theology by Parley P. Pratt. But even if it was, that's far from the scariest thing I've seen in my life. Some of the stuff I've heard about IRL from my close family... And I've felt things... Demonic things... Words cannot describe it very well but it is a laughing crying screaming insanity. Like your life is become a spiraling nightmare you cannot wake or escape from. that you're helplessly watching. And if you don't wanna sleep tonight, read up on cult abuse. It's so incredibly bad that many minds literally FRACTURE to deal with the pressure, hence Dissociative Identity Disorder, AKA multiple personality disorder.

[Visions of Glory]

On 4/18/2016 at 0:21 PM, LeSellers said:

The "ghost stuff" is both improbable and scary because it could be true.

What "ghost stuff"?

[I can think of only 2 reasons why men would want polygamy]

12 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

So you think there are women in Outer Darkness with Satan who rebelled against God as part of the 1/3 host that rebelled? I thought you had to have the priesthood to warrant Outer Darkness.

Who said that? Outer Darkness is for the worst. Who exactly warrants that here, only Christ and Heavenly Father knows. But I certainly don't see why not. In fact, I'm pretty certain there are demonesses out there, considering what I've read and heard about. And make no mistake, I'm more than sure they're just as equally and utterly nasty and twisted and malevolent as their male counterparts.

[I can think of only 2 reasons why men would want polygamy]

Alright, this isn't really a reply to this topic as it is to Zara as a whole.

I noticed your topic about women being better than men. I used to think like that too. A lot. I literally began to have suspicions that perhaps men should be serving women and letting them lead us, it was that extreme. And you know what?

It was wrong. This goes back into the plain ol' thinking that someone else is somehow better than us, more spiritual than us, more qualified to be in the Celestial Kingdom, more etc. Perhaps we even unconsciously see them as perfect. and in such cases, then begins the horrible thinking that we're not and we'll never be as good as that person or persons.

THIS IS A LIE. Let me tell you what the truth is. Everyone sins. EVERYONE. We all sin constantly. Only Jesus Christ was the only person who lived on this world who was perfect. And that's it. Period. And you know what the Lord also said?

"For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance" (emphasis added)

He said that right in the first section of the Doctrine and Covenants. So, everyone is equally guilty. (Not counting the Unforgivable Sins) Everyone is equally separated from God. And there is no way we can "earn" our way back into the Celestial Kingdom by our own merits and/or power. The moment you first sin, that's it. You're out. Doesn't matter how small it was. Doesn't matter how many times it was committed. If you've sinned even once, you're finished. This is the justice of God in its pure form. The justice of God leaves none standing but the one and only Christ.

So what are we to do? How can we possibly return back to our loving Father? How could we ever do it? And the good news, the glorious wonderful answer, is Jesus Christ. His mercy. His Atonement. He will get us safely back. How? The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Faith in Christ, repentance, baptism by water, and baptism by fire. This is the ageless message for our world. One that applies to everyone. Something that EVERY SINGLE PERSON on this earth needs to understand fully and completely. This is our ticket back home and this is the only way. And simultaneously, it is the best way.

So, anyway. Back to what I was originally saying. Are women better than men? NO. Are men better than women? NO. No one is better than the other. Again, we are all equally separated from our dear Heavenly Father. We are all equally loved, which is an infinite love. An Eternal love. We all equally need our brother, Savior, and Lord, Jesus Christ. And He is asking us to follow him. To learn from him. To lovingly and respectfully accept his sacrifice and be justified and purified, both.

And in any case, if Women are so much better than men, then why is the Savior that we chose in the beginning, male? It's such an inferior gender after all. How could it possssibbbllyy be? I just don't know. XP

 

[I’m not sure there has ever been an issue that has/will separate the wheat from the tares like homosexuality]

36 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I totally agree.  Josh and Lolly are friends of mine (yes, I'm blessed.  :) )  I have been heavily influenced in my thoughts on issue by them.  They are also the ones that have helped me understand how very painful this issue is for Gay people.  

True indeed. But every one of us has something we seriously struggle with. whether it be in-born disability, addictive personalities, bad parenting, poverty, or even war. Homosexuality is just another personal struggle, albeit a tough one.

[I’m not sure there has ever been an issue that has/will separate the wheat from the tares like homosexuality]

11 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Marriage and family are a central part of the gospel (as they should be). So when your sexual orientation precludes you from all of that, it's really painful and impossible to just ignore it.

http://www.joshweed.com/2012/06/club-unicorn-in-which-i-come-out-of.html

^ I think that should be required reading for LDS'.

TL;DR - "Here is the basic reality that I actually think many people could use a lesson in: sex is about more than just visual attraction and lust and it is about more than just passion and infatuation. I won’t get into the boring details of the research here, but basically when sex is done right, at its deepest level it is about intimacy. It is about one human being connecting with another human being they love. It is a beautiful physical manifestation of two people being connected in a truly vulnerable, intimate manner because they love each other profoundly. It is bodies connecting and souls connecting. It is beautiful and rich and fulfilling and spiritual and amazing. Many people never get to this point in their sex lives because it requires incredible communication, trust, vulnerability, and connection. And Lolly and I have had that from day one, mostly because we weren’t distracted by the powerful chemicals of infatuation and obsession that usually bring a couple together (which dwindle dramatically after the first few years of marriage anyway)."

[I’m not sure there has ever been an issue that has/will separate the wheat from the tares like homosexuality]

I think people take homosexuality way too seriously, from both sides of the camp. It's just a dumb sexual attraction. It's not supposed to be a way of life.

[Do we come close to worshipping Joseph Smith?]

8 hours ago, LeSellers said:

Another that deserves its own topic.

Yes, we do, but not in the same way we worship Father (to Whom we pray) or the Son (in Whose name we act). I'm not sure how we manifest it (and that's a problem in my eyes), but He is a full-fledged member of the Godhead.

Lehi

I believe we're supposed to invite the Holy Ghost into our lives, follow Jesus Christ and do whatsoever things we do with the father in mind in Christ's name, and worship Heavenly Father.

An even better question is, do we worship Jesus Christ as well or just Heavenly Father? And what exactly does worship mean? Or should mean in the scriptures? This is actually a question I've seriously been thinking about lately.

[Why do we need a sacrificed mediator?]

15 hours ago, jasonnooson said:

I agree with all of that.  The problem is that nothing in your analigy requires Christ to suffer and be killed to do what he did for the soccer players.  Everything in your story can come just by looking to Christ, following his example.  No where in your story did you mention the coach having to suffer and die for what he ended up doing.  That is where the logic of the Atonement ceases to make sense to me.

Christ needed to die to gain power over death. Same thing for sin and the suffering that comes with it. Why it exactly had to be done this way is a little unknown. However, after having thought about this, I've come to the firm conclusion that suffering and sin has to go SOMEWHERE. If it could just be vanished away immediately, it would render sin completely meaningless. And without sin and suffering, there is no contrast to happiness and obedience. Then there would be no law. And if there is no law, there is no order. And if there is no order, there is no God.

[Forum down time]

15 minutes ago, rpframe said:

Either way, we have a lot of things to consider when choosing software. Presently we are going to continue forward with invisionpower. There are a lot of bugfixes and improvements coming with this update. Hope it alleviates a few concerns.

The latest major version that we are using was built from the ground up. So it definitely has bugs. But they are actively working on fixing them.

And boy let me tell you, the backend of the old version was a complete disaster.

Wow. XD Don't envy you guys. But yeah, thank you for the work you guys do. I really appreciate this forum and it needs to stick around.

[Forum down time]

9 minutes ago, rpframe said:

We used vBulletin before, it has its own issues. Not real excited about anything more from them.

Additionally, there are a lot of other concerns we worry about. Such as keeping the millions of posts we already have in here. Its not quite as simple as just installing new software most of the time.

We have recently upgraded our database to help alleviate some of this. But I agree it can still take a while. SQL doesn't like it much when you have multi gigabyte databases. The search index alone for this thing is 700MB. 

Wait... vBulletin 4 or vBulletin 5? Because 5 wasn't made by the original team and sucks big time. Like... Really big. I have personally seen it. 4 was partly made by them and is widely considered to be the last vBulletin that was really great. It's showing its age though sadly despite how good it is even today.

[Forum down time]

3 hours ago, rpframe said:

Hi,

Site Tech here.

There are a lot of improvements and bug fixes in this patch. I don't write the software, I only administer it, so, all I can do right now is quote the changelog:

So, in short, yes, we hope to see fewer duplicates.

Perhaps you guys should try XenForo, made by the ex-vBulletin team.

[Why do we need a sacrificed mediator?]

Eternal does not mean never-ending. It means godly. Eternal punishment = God's punishment. A very terrible punishment but a limited one all the same because we do not commit infinite sins. We commit a GREAT amount of sin in total, absolutely. But not an infinite amount. So we don't really need to suffer for an infinite amount of time. Our agony though would be LIKE as a flame ascending up forever and ever.

I also want to add a very important thing. Christ does not only pay the demands of justice, he SANCTIFIES us. What does that mean though? It means that he is literally making us steadily into better people. So the Atonement's purpose is twofold. To pay the debt and to make our motives and actions and etc. pure. Being turned into eternal beings through Him. And I think that is where OP is confused. He is only seeing the debts paid and not the changing power as well of the Atonement and of Christ.

[Why do we need a sacrificed mediator?]

Think of Justice in terms of spiritual math. Or maybe even just straight up math.

3-1=2 That -1 is sin. And in order to make it 3 again, that one needs to be added back. 2+1=3 The +1 is the payment. The recompense that cold logic and truth say is needed.

The problem is, we cannot help but keep on minusing 1's all year long, non-stop until we die. What are we to do about this gross inequality that we are helplessly creating? The only thing we can do about it just by ourselves is to pay for all those -1's full out. Over a lifetime or even just 20 years, that's an awful lot to pay back, needless to say! How can we avoid this? Is there anything that can be done to satisfy the inequality we cannot help but make constantly in our everyday lives?

The answer is a resounding YES. Those +1's can be given from another source. Justice wants balance. Nothing more or less. And by doing this, Justice's cold logical need of balance is fully satisfied without us having to pay anything. And that other source is Jesus Christ. He is willing to pay it all. He is balancing all of us out, he who has INFINITE +1's to give because he enacted an INSANELY powerful ordinance. The Atonement. A sheer incomprehensible act only a god could ever have performed. And all of this was done for us. All we have to do is accept his payment and his commandments. To do the best we can from not adding more -1's than we can help. To follow him.

[Virtual Reality verses Reality]

To quote the late and great Morpheus, how do you define "real?" How many subatomic particles must we find before we finally agree that our reality is real? Anyway. I think the most real thing in this world is how we interact with and affect others. Because that is what will truly last when we all inevitably die. So technically, in that sense, no, our world isn't "real", but our choices with others very much are.

Unless you want to reallllyyy start questioning stuff and get into Plato's The Cave. In which case, I would have the greatest sympathy for you if you did because that line of reasoning can only go so far before you hit a very final dead end which is, there's no way at all to find out and speculation is utterly pointless and we need to just do the best with what we're given.

[Are some apostatized truths of the gospel more important / weighty than others?]

Pretty much everything you bring up has long ago been answered in the Restoration or is downright irrelevant, sorry to say.

Also, it doesn't matter if murder is SLIGHTLY more horrendous than rape or whatever other horrible sin your mind can conjure up. They BOTH are utterly terrible. Stay as far away from sin as possible, and if (sorry, WHEN) you've sinned, repent. End of story there.

"Say nothing but repentance unto this generation; keep my commandments, and assist to bring forth my work, according to my commandments" - D&C 6:9

"The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost." - Articles of Faith 1:4

Although there are many unknown things and mysteries of God, some of them doubtless utterly fascinating, if not downright enthralling, they are as of this moment in our progression entirely irrelevant to what we need to do and focus on and study. Heavenly Father wants us so very much to draw closer to him and be one with him in mind and spirit, and how we do that is described above. What we really need to know, what we really need to do, isn't complicated at all. It doesn't require a lifetime of searching out ancient and/or modern writings in the slightest. It's all in the scriptures. We follow Jesus Christ. We praise him, and we lovingly worship our Heavenly Father; the source of all power, light, love, and truth.

[Blessing/Consecrating Objects?]

Bumping with an important update.

After consulting with my parents, I've decided not to do this at all. Basically, when you give a blessing, there's more to it than just the blessing itself. The blessing comes with a firm. and in a way, loving reminder that this power comes from Heavenly Father, and thus, He is also telling you that he is the one to focus your love and faith on always. If you just made an object that did it, then the object would tend to get all the credit which leads to idolatry.

TL;DR - Heavenly Father wants his power to be delivered in person by another person.

[How long to read scriptures for each day?]

Yeah, what a lot of people here said. It's not about the amount of time, it's about getting the most out of it that you can, whether it takes 5 minutes or 30 minutes. But MAKE SURE you set aside time for it. At least 30 minutes should be set aside so if you need to ponder and/or read more, you can without interruption.

Which brings me to my last point. Minimize all interruption of your scripture reading when you're actually doing it so you dedicate your mind fully to reading and feeling the spirit instead of worrying about this or that or someone texting you or etc.

[Blessing/Consecrating Objects?]

Thanks everyone for the answers! I particularly agree with james12's reminder that we must remember to worship Heavenly Father and not the objects, no matter how powerful He made them be. I'll be sure to consult a little more with my friends before I consecrate the object I have in mind, then if all goes well, I will fast and pray and bless it as specifically as the Spirit guides me.

14 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Can it be done? Probably but why?

Because I wish to do it with an object of mine... Not only to help me but to help anyone who wears it. I have heard of demonic items made in this world. I wish to do the exact opposite and make an artifact of spiritual light and power as much as the Lord allows in his wisdom. If he will allow it. As of now though, I have a good feeling about it inside.

[Blessing/Consecrating Objects?]

So we all know about the Sword of Laban and the Stones of the Jaredites. But... After thinking about these things, a very cool question came into my mind. Is it at all possible for a normal but fully worthy priesthood holder to bless objects in the holy name of Christ to fill them with spiritual power of some sort? Maybe of course not nearly to the same extent as the Stones of the Jaredites. But I've never heard a passage of scripture saying we can't or even that it's not recommended! In fact, the scriptures seem to encourage it with such passages telling us that with great faith in Christ and Heavenly Father, good and incredible things may be brought to pass under the perfect guidance of the Holy Ghost as long as they are for the benefit of man as a whole and to help bring them back to the Father.

Can it be done then? And if not, why not?