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  1. After all, what happens when the political winds change, and government decides to get cozy with conservative advocacy groups? Lol you mean like it is in the southern states Take a look at who is helping sponsering some of the stuff in Texas and and Alabama. Both sides are guilty, though i wonder why only one side was mentioned?
  2. So much to say but if i quote the posts it will get rather long so I'll make a few comments along the way to previous posts and hope it all flows together. On the topic of whether its the drugs and drinking that lead to the looking down no it wasn't in that case and many of the cases i or those i know have met with. It's just the fact we are perceive as gay. My friend was just playing with his nephew last week and low and behold his nephew said gay and my friends father started to punch him because he though he infected his nephew. Last city i lived in we had people wait out side the gay bars to attack people. I've seen it out shopping with me friends. I've seen It in places i work when customers assume someone is gay and just start verbally abusing them. ( boy are they shocked when i come to deal with is and find out why i handle it the way i do, i admit i enjoy surprising them as i have security throw them out with me going toe to toe with them the entire way). One thing to consider in much i say, is that while some of it comes from this site, much of what i say reflecting on the Christians perspective comes from the Christian right media. I've heard bits and pieces parroted here over the years but for the most part the members of this site have been less antagonistic. As for the trying marriage of straight sex bit it get thrown around a lot. Look at some of Carlimacs posts on asking why we just can't make a go with women. Why oh why is it so horrible, why don't we just admit it could be possible to marry a woman and make it work. Like it or not that's an experiment that more than a few of us have tried. And like it or not it is an experiment at it's core. Trying to find a way to make it work knowing the odds tend to be stacked against us. It's only in the last few years that the LDS church has moved away from the idea of marriage as a cure and a lot of people still don't quite get why it's a bad idea. People see Josh weed and think hey there you go see it can be done. They tend to ignore the fact that for the one that does work, 100 have failed and hurt a lot of people. There is a number of support groups in Utah for families that tried this experiment and now have to pick up the pieces. Also quite a few of the "ex-gay" programs do push for gay people to develop sexual attraction to the opposite sex and progress into opposite sex marriages and as more and more of those groups are admitting it is a failed experiment. I have no problem with the LDS looking down on homosexuals, it's what they believe and in the end it is what it is. It's not pleasant but oh well. It's how it's conveyed. As Vort pointed out there are right and wrong ways to deal with it and a certain yuck factor does figure in.(by the way the exact same yuck factor we feel towards straight sexual ideas). One of the comments i've made is expecting more from those taking the moral high ground. Like Jesus with the leapers, it may be yuck, but that doesn't allow for people to use less of their manners or better behavior. You might not get it from the other side and i hate that, but the second you act like them, you lose the ground you have. This isn't directed at anyone in specific this is Christianity in general. As for The Christian right using the pedophilia argument oh dear. It's a favorite fall back. They quote studies then have the person who did the study come back and say " what on earth are you doing ? my study said the exact opposite", they take random cases and don't fact check they just say what they want. There are a whole bunch of flyers and site dedicated to the homosexual pedophilia menace. They still claim being we are made this way by abuse and horrible families that we have to keep recruiting kids young to get more gay people and that this is 100% fact. Over all to me there seems a stark difference between what a lot of people say should be the reaction or what they perceive as the reaction and what is reality. I look at Christians and some of the vile stuff i hear means they have lost all justification to speak as Christians. I'm not a novice or unschooled in Christianity. I spent quite a bit of my life as a Christian and i still use a lot of the tenants to live by. So why i hear some of the horrible things said it makes me pitty them because they are not on the path they think they are on. I'm not talking simple condemnation, though to a point it's not their place but they are doing it to try and make us see our errors, great i can deal with that. I can understand a level of disgust, but don't accept it as a reason to turn away for the sinner unless there are other good reasons. I don't take issue at all with how it's supposed to happen and for the most part the LDS church has got it right...a few members here and there need a swift kick but I've gotten a much better feeling about the church on this area in the last few years. That being said the Christian right and their media machine needs to be looked at real hard by honest to God Christians so you see the name they are giving you. Lies, misrepresentations, distortions, fantasies, actual sins in the name of God. If you wonder why "religious liberty" is in danger, why gays feel at war with Christians this is the reason. This is why the level of respect or even fear has gone down on the gay side, this is why they don't really care about who gets hurt or loses something, because the Christian right has no problems lying or playing dirty so it's all out war, and sadly the real salt of the earth Christians get stung. The members here aren't advocating executions, beating, expulsion, incarceration public shaming. Most of you would be horrified to see that, but people are speaking for you.
  3. Sorry for the late reply i was away for the weekend. My trip actually gave me time to sit and talk about this issue with a large number of gay men at a party and it lead to some interesting conversations. Can i give you 5 or 10 names who came out publicly for Josh Weed, no. I read a few here and there and in conversations I've found a few but mostly I've come across doubt. I wouldn't say loving concern is a motivation more a Shell shock reaction. Sitting this weekend and listening to the people who were forced to try and change at a young age while they were trying to figure things out, talking to those who have tried the straight route for a variety or reasons it was interesting to listen. One thing also very interesting to me wee the differences in stories between the age groups. The mind set between the 30 year olds and the 20 year olds was quite different as to be expected. The 30 year olds experiences were a little more reflective and while some of them had been through hell they had learned and grown and had time to ponder. The younger ones were of the more rebellious " i'll do what i want because i want and i don't care what others think" mentality. One common factor amongst almost all of the men who had undergone (ex gay) experiences in their youth was it was forced in one way or another. Guilted, Strong armed, Violence used. Deception. Now with out going and looking for horror stories or random experiences, a group of gay men just sat and talked and this was a complete random sample but it was there in the open. A few admitted to wanting to change on their own, but the way it was handled scared them so bad that it now produces a heated response. Many of us have also tried the straight route for what ever reason and in the end had similar experiences, Are these people vocally outspoken or part of the gay rights media monster, no, they are just normal every day people living their lives. We talked about Josh Weed and the strongest reaction was poor guy i hope it works better than my experience. Not Poor guy cause he's "stuck in a lie" but because they all remember their time in his place and don't want it to happen to someone else. Are some of the more vocal opponents a bit more rash and heated, you bet, but for the average joe's it gives insight on where it comes from. Now lets look at celibacy and lets be honest that's not all Christians are asking for unless things have changed. I once asked here that if i entered into a same sex relationship following all the rules of the law of chastity would everything be ok. The answer i got from this forum was a resounding no. It wasn't just no sex, it was no relationship. No hugs, no brief kisses no nothing unlike a straight dating member. So it's not just no sex, it's no relationship. So lets either clarify or state it's not just celibacy that's being asked. Which is fine, but lets just make it clear. That average teen age boy you mentioned can still ask his crush out, maybe hold hands, have that brief hug, steal a quick kiss and if things progress he might marry her and have sex. is it easy for him to avoid temptation, not in the least, trust me fully understand. I was celibate for 13 years between relationships was it easy, nope did i do it, yes. You know what made it not so bad? Knowing it could end. People look at me like I was crazy, but i held to something, not because of god, or religious obligation but because i didn't like the idea of sleeping around. Now to touch on the suicides topic something that happened this weekend makes me want to comment. It's not that they need to stay celibate that drives the desire for young people to die. It's that people can't even just accept them. They aren't asked if they are having sex, or have had sex. It's the fact they say they are gay and people come crashing down on them. It was my friends 30th birthday this weekend. I hate crowds and i still feel awkward in the gay scene, so i stuck in the kitchen helping with all the food and such. One of his friends felt much the same way so he stuck with me. He's 18, good looking kid, smart, should have been the life of the party. Instead he was moody, depressed and needed to drink. He's been down visiting family during the week and had a great time until for some reason his young nephew said the word gay around my friends father. His father lost it, blamed my friend and started to beat him. It took such a huge toll on him that he spent the night trying to kill it all off with alcohol and drugs, just trying to numb everything. These tend to be the things that make young people want to kill themselves rather than being told not to have sex. You say Mormons call out sexual sins of straight people quite a bit, but it's not with the same disdain. You look at many of the post dealing with sex before marriage and adultery and the reactions tend to be black and white. The over all reaction to straight sexual sin is more understanding and seeking to repent. The over all reaction to homosexual sin is completely different. The revulsion, comparison to bestiality, the link to pedophilia, the complete looking down on the people who commit it. If you look at the public face of the church would most people say the sexual sins are all called out equally or would most people even know of the fact it's called out at all. Now yes i know, i've heard the talks at all levels of the church, it's a huge topic, but there are major differences. Now believe it or not lol you straights love to tell gays to experiment with straight sex. weather it be conversion therapy, marriage, Heck the amount of girls that want to turn gay guys straight. If you think it's gays pushing for straights to experiment lol trust me try being gay and see how much straights push experimenting lol. Now people keep telling me marriage isn't about sex and to a point i agree. There is so much more to marriage, but i'd believe it was something worth exempting from my life is we didn't see things like the law of chastity which puts such a high importance on sexuality(purity0, it shows how vital a part that it o a person and what a gift it it to be given in a marriage. I'd believe sex isn't a strong component if i didn't see such high adultery numbers in the people telling us it's not that big a deal. I'd believe it if we didn't see endless posts here complaining of sexless marriages and how it's harming one side of such marriage. There is so much to a complete relationship, but the people telling me sex really plays such a little to no part of it are full of it. i have seen sooooooooooo many LDS marriages rushed because the partners can not control themselves and instead of taking it slow and just waiting and being celibate boom they are married and there are kids 9 months later. Is that immaculate conception or lo and behold was there that sex that people say really doesn't need to factor in. Yes people are celibate for many reasons, yes it's possible, yes it can open doors to a different kind of life. It can make you stronger. It can also make you weaker. Also for Gay LDS it's the answer. The thing that a lot of this thread misses is that most of this doesn't apply with in The church. It doesn't fall with in The physical structures of Christianity. Asking Gay Christians to be celibate is fine, it's part of their doctrine and have at it. This thread isn't about (directly) Gay Christians, it's about all gays seeking marriage. I had a guy ask me about my views on marriage this weekend, more so about civil unions vs marriage. He wanted my opinion before he spoke because we have our own heated debates with in the community. I said i was more than happy with civil unions if they hadn't tried to find ways to still make exclusions in a lot of them. Let Religion have marriage, or get government out of marriage all together, find a way to make both sides happy that really doesn't cause any injury to anyone. I myself will gladly give up marriage if it gives me and my partner what we need, but people kept playing games and dragging their feet so it came to this. It's gotten so blown out of proportion that now it's all or nothing and i don't see it ending when it probably could have ended long ago if we'd all let some of the posturing and ego go and just listened.
  4. First off while it might seem easier to think that the gays who have the issues aren't religious it's not right. Also the assumption that the majority of the ones who are have in mind that their relationship is ok with god is also wrong. It creates a lot of stress in their life having to decide between a relationship or following the tenants of their faith to the letter. Though i do dwell on your comment about fabricated beliefs. Isn't that what most different sects of Christianity accuse each other of constantly? How many doctrines of the LDS church do other Christians say are just made up, or complete misinterpretations? Singles who don't get married still can for the most part hold out hope. There's that chance it might still happen. I've seen so many members of the church who have never been married my age or older who still talk like they have a chance, bemoaning being single and holding out for their day in the temple. They have hope. Some have followed the law of chastity, some haven't. Also above and beyond we aren't talking about changing church doctrine here, no one has mentioned it in this thread at all. Not one thing about this topic has been about church doctrine, it's about the Courts and law, which are separate from doctrine much to the sadness of some people. How many posts do we see on this site about sexless or un fulfilling marriages. People recommend books, people recommend ways to spice things up. Very few say just sit back and take it accept it and like it. Will every marriage have great sex? Nope. Will every same sex marriage have great sex, Nope. I do laugh at the self discipline comment. Look at the posters on this site. So many of them are revolted and horrified at the though of male on male sex, it provokes a very deep reaction both mental and in some cases physical. Ask Vort, Folk Prophet, PC, Travler if they could develop enough self discipline to commit to that type of sexual relationship and find happiness. I have no doubt a few people could and make it work, but there are those who just couldn't for any reason. A great sex life might not be a civil right, but i believe the court ruling in 2003 said that ability for homosexuals to seek one is. One last thing. I had asked so many times if what you say is possible. An emotional loving relationship with someone of the same sex, and most members here said absolutely not. Such a relationship violates the spirit of the law of chastity because it can never progress so there for it shouldn't happen. The funny thing is same sex relationships are no different from others, over time sex isn't as big a deal as just having someone to come home to, it's just nice to have on occasion. Heck most of my dates involve just cuddling up on the couch watching a movie or playing video games rather than sex, it's nice to just have someone to share my life with. And honestly if you can find willing straight members on this site who would be as willing to enter a same sex marriage as they are a traditional marriage we can talk about it being a good solution. Being it's only a matter of self discipline it shouldn't be too hard right?
  5. I think you might have misunderstood my direction on some of this. I'm not advocating the experimentation, just saying it happens, and really has been advocated by both sides. It can lead to as much confusion as it can help resolve and can lead to hurting themselves and others. I don't care if it's straights advocating gays experiment with being straight or gays suggesting it doesn't hurt to experiment with gay sex to make sure you aren't repressed, i don't think either argument bares any merit and can be dangerous and insulting. As for the behavior vs orientation comment, it can be hard to seperate the two. You bring up people like Josh weed and the show and why it elicits the reaction is does. There are people who don't care if others are celibate, others who don't care if a gay guy marries a woman. The concern and reaction comes from a few different places. Look at the coversation we've had about polyamy in this thread. Now some of the comments have been " it doesn't happen by free choice, young girls are forced into it, it's oppressive" ect ect. Now look at the reactions to those comments. Members here with family history of polygamy and with faith in the church can take exception to this and see different sides to the issue. Ask some of the young women who were married off in the FLDS church or were to be married off and you might here a different side. Perspective might play a role in what you see. The reason i bring this up is you here some gays who are skeptics to the marriages and the chastity but a lot of it comes from their personal experiences. At the end of the day gays can't ever have a real relationship they would desire in the eyes of most christians. Marry the opposite sex or just never be with anyone is really the only way to make christians happy. A lot of us do those things because it's expected or for the sakes of others and it for many it causes pain and damage. For a great many they remember the why of why they did it and limits them from seeing some might make the choice for themselves 100%, it what they want to do because its what they want. It doesn't make their lashing out right, but it doesn't come from a simple place. part of being gay is part of the sexual relationships. just like being straight is part of the sexual relationships. Straights don't get called out nearly as much for their sexual sins. Straights have a sexual outlet that is allowed and triumphed. Are their other aspects to the people yes, but i don't think for the most part Christians are against much of the gay asspect other than the sex. I honestly hear more from the religious right about graphic gay sex than i do my gay friends.
  6. You bring up an interesting point, but i wonder if you realize how much the flip side is already practiced. How many people insist that if gay people just try straight sex they will be cured. How do they know they are gay if they have never been with the opposite sex. How many gay people have felt forced into straight sex to pacify others. How many times have we seen people suggest a straight marriage can be good for gay people. As i've said before i have seen different "types of gays". The confused who don't know, the rebels who are acting out and the mainstream who just are. With adolescents and young adults it's never been rare to find confused and rebels who will seek experiences that may not be them on their way to finding themselves or escaping who they are. I've had the misfortune of dating some of these and it's not a good experience for them or the person they are dating. The one thing to consider is just because people experiment doesn't make orientation fluid. Experimentation is just that, with many things it will come about by peer pressure, confusion, curiosity or rebellion but it doesn't tend to make statement on orientation.
  7. I personally wonder why neither side can learn from the past? So if we go with what you consider the level of persecution in America we can agree both sides have been persecuted and it still goes on. If it's wrong to have it on one side then it must be wrong for the other side to do the same kind of behavior, or at least in my mind if it's wrong for one it's wrong for the other. We see tit for tat across the board. Too many times the other side see's the worst possible outcome of the other sides actions and reacts according to the worst possible out come. Gays get denied as say in their partners lives and deaths so gays want marriage, Christians worry they will be forced to participate so they bring in RFA bills, Gays worry the extent these bills can go to ( doctors ok to refuse treatment, grocery stores refusing to sell food ect), Gays rally and push back and make the Christians more scared so Christians push for more extreme bills ( two new ones i read about include one that would make it impossible to have your marriage recognized and another that will not let a state issue marriage licenses to gay couples even if it is the law of the land.)it's a never ending circle that keeps constricting and forcing worse reactions out of each side and it worries me cause both sides will soon be backed into corners that will only lead to something horrible if neither side blinks and realizes that we are to a point just being spiteful against each other rather than seeing how it's taking a human toll.
  8. I do find in sad we are starting to see another version of don't ask don't tell, this time aimed more at those with religious convictions. Not everyone is going to like what others say and do, but there does need to be a bit thicker skin all around. Now as i pointed out earlier with people who take issue with the term homophobe ( i'm not a huge fan of it myself) we are starting to see the terms Christianaphobe and starting to see the term persecution when applied to Christianity in North America more and more. So if it's just silly to use the term homophobe, isn't it just as silly to use the term applying to Christianity? Are Christians really being persecuted in America or are they having some growing pains rubbing up against another way of life that could very easily even out given time if both sides stop trying to win it all?
  9. I know it may sound stupid to Christians, but Since i stopped trying to fight myself i find the good a bit easier to let out. I learned most of the patience though from helping raise 5 kids lol. From there no retail customer or staff member can really shake me, though i have to fight off the urge to spank them. I'm not sure there would be much left of me if i didn't have the 3 c-isms but maybe one day someone or something will prove me wrong. I always find it funny to look at me now vs where i was when i was younger. Wanting nothing more than to be a priest to being "a soulless darth vader" ( my teams favorite nickname for me, they really love me). There might still be hope for you PC come to the dark side
  10. Hey Pammy, how are ya? Life has been crazy. Another company closing down and another job search, yay for a bit of free time though lol.
  11. LOL but the legal speak is always where they get you. There is a reason they always say read the fine print. Might seem like common sense until it comes and bites you in the backside because you didn't bother to take a real close look at it.
  12. Well you know I've been in retail too long when i saw the first bit of your story and before i read the response from the first salesman " YAY brand new market!!!!" Also if it makes you feel better about me I have 0 interest in the 50 shades of gray movie :) I also think for me personally part of the difference is i don't have a belief that humanity at it's core is good or wants to be good or any such thing. Now while this seems like rambling and it is, needed to get a bit of it off my chest it holds true because it shows the mindset some people approach this issue with, and i think more people are starting to reach this place. I don't believe in the good intentions of Christians, I don't believe they are good intentioned people. I don't dislike them in general i just don't see the good in them, or anyone because for the most part people haven't given me reason in a long time to think of them as good. I know a lot of gays like me, and i know a lot of Christians like me. I also know others on the other side of the fence from both factions. I don't like expecting the worst from people and being right, it's dreary and depressing, but gives me the nice benefit of usually being right. I'm hopeful now and then and really would like to see a middle ground reached between religion and sexual orientation. That being said we all need to change just a bit and stop proving everyone right. We need to stop and think " how would i feel?" and really think on it. This isn't just pointed at Christians or any particular faith. Everybody needs to start acting like the humans we want to see rather than what we say they should be. In 20 years maybe 5% of people i've interacted with convinced me they were good people in thought and action, while my number might be low, how many people can say they really approach people thinking the best any more, or do we expect the worst and go from there?
  13. Here is another way of looking at it You use the term Chritianphobia which i assume is a tongue in cheek reference to Homophobia. The fact that you would use a term that you and many rolled your eyes at even tongue in cheek shows the circle i mention and that many others see. If you are as willing to use the same old lingo that you were against and use the same tactics then how are we moving on or learning, just the same old same old circle. If we aren't just taking each others place from the past shouldn't we be doing new things and learning rather than recycling?
  14. It's not so terrible in a country that's made marriage civil and given it government benefits. That's where it all falls down. If religion was the only marriage broker I'd be right beside you telling them to drop it and move on to something they had any reason to think they should have. Darn those civil ceremonies and benefits that gay people pay taxes to help support. Darn a government that was created to not be beholden to any one faith and to allow people to make choices to be out from under any one particular faith. That's where America loses the clarity that other countries like your home land has. Most people used to see it as a huge winning point of America but now it's being seen as less or a bright spot because the world has turned a bit but that doesn't mean that the people are just looking to whip people for the sake of it or for the powerful feeling it brings. The fact you might think Christianity has not earned the wrath it's getting for past actions shows exactly what i said about learning from past mistakes. People of faith have cause rifts and pain. Not everyone is anti christian because it's popular and fun, many are that way because faith has hurt people and people have watched and seen their loved ones hurt by people and faith and it's turned them. We saw great examples in California and through out the LDS world when Prop 8 was being fought for. LDS parents and friends and family who turned on the church not because it was popular, but because of the pain they saw being inflicted on those they loved. This is not to say that Christianity deserves all it's getting, but to brush it off as just a fad or that the people who have legitimate hurt and that people have come to support them shows why Christianity is not learning and making a certain movement to Martyr status. People are taking a very Christan action to support those in pain ( while not acting very Christian in how they move forward from that) while Christians dismiss and inflame the problems by claiming they are the true dismissing that they have caused pain, and there is the circle again.
  15. Not so much two wrongs make a right as where do we go now. There is no clear example on how to move on with grace or how to make things better for all at the same time. The example that was set is not the one we should want to follow but it's the path of least resistance. it's clear and easy to follow but it leads back to the same place, and with the Christians fighting like lions more than lambs it seems to be so easy to dismiss and not worry about their cries for many. I think it's more a struggle we can all relate to " how do we learn from the sins of the past and grow beyond them?"