Soulsearcher

I think you might have misunderstood my direction on some of this.
 
I'm not advocating the experimentation, just saying it happens, and really has been advocated by both sides.  It can lead to as much confusion as it can help resolve and can lead to hurting themselves and others.  I don't care if it's straights advocating gays experiment with being straight or gays suggesting it doesn't hurt to experiment with gay sex to make sure you aren't repressed, i don't think either argument bares any merit and can be dangerous and insulting.
 
As for the behavior vs orientation comment, it can be hard to seperate the two.  You bring up people like Josh weed and the show and why it elicits the reaction is does.  There are people who don't care if others are celibate, others who don't care if a gay guy marries a woman.  The concern and reaction comes from a few different places.
 
Look at the coversation we've had about polyamy in this thread.  Now some of the comments have been " it doesn't happen by free choice, young girls are forced into it, it's oppressive" ect ect.  Now look at the reactions to those comments.  Members here with family history of polygamy and with faith in the church can take exception to this and see different sides to the issue.  Ask some of the young women who were married off in the FLDS church or were to be married off and you might here a different side.  Perspective might play a role in what you see.
 
The reason i bring this up is you here some gays who are skeptics to the marriages and the chastity but a lot of it comes from their personal experiences.  At the end of the  day gays can't ever have a real relationship they would desire in the eyes of most christians.  Marry the opposite sex or just never be with anyone is really the only way to make christians happy.  A lot of us do those things because it's expected or for the sakes of others and it for many it causes pain and damage.  For a great many they remember the why of why they did it and limits them from seeing some might make the choice for themselves 100%, it what they want to do because its what they want.  It doesn't make their lashing out right, but it doesn't come from a simple place.
 
part of being gay is part of the sexual relationships. just like being straight is part of the sexual relationships.  Straights don't get called out nearly as much for their sexual sins.  Straights have a sexual outlet that is allowed and triumphed.  Are their other aspects to the people yes, but i don't think for the most part Christians are against much of the gay asspect other than the sex.  I honestly hear more from the religious right about graphic gay sex than i do my gay friends.

Both cases which speak directly to my points.
 
Trinity law school did in fact face trouble with accreditation but won in the courts.  The Bar assosiation did try to block the students in many provinces but last i heard all was working out in favor of the school.
 
As for Bill Whatcott his case should be a bit more encouraging.  The court clearly said simple preaching and sharing of his religious beliefs was protected and had he stuck to preaching he would have been protected.  Sadly he went with shock and scare tactics and some dishonesty and thats what he suffered for.  As i said in my earlier post the line between preaching and harmful crusade is where the line is drawn.
 
Now considering i keep hearing stories of religious organizations who have and are against employment and housing protections, who still try to prove all gays are after children, who are still fighting to have the sodomy laws back on the books, want DADT put back in force ect.
 
a) i'm not sure anyone is really losing the ability to speak, they are just being judged on what they say and how they say it, maybe a bit harshly
b)is it time to consider how things are being said.  Not aimed at anyone in specific.  As someone outside religion i read and listen to the noise makers.  We all do.  its rare to have the chance to hear the random individual.  We hear the loud and influential.  The voices i hear speaking for religion don't sound like the religion i grew up with.  i don't hear Christ when i hear them.  I listen to political candidates, leaders of interest groups and the focus is on division.  They are not alone in the talk of division and it gets worse.  I understand the American love to be able to say what ever they want but i'm wondering if it's not time for the better angels to start focusing on what's being said and how it's being said instead of how important it is to say just anything?

First of all when reading articles like this consider the source.  If a site has a clear bias either way then it's usuallt not the best source either way.  Something to remember is Canada has had gay marriage for a decade.  The church is pretty good at communication and letting members know of challenges and keeping members up to date on issues, so if this were a major issue i think you would have heard about it.
 
The descrption of the law is a it nitpicky, but to be expected from a biased source.  There have been issues (in 10 years only a handful andi'm not sure how many directly related to marriage), all of them in the public theater, not one from private or church examples.
 
Even when the church was making very vocal pushes agaist marriage there was not a single case of any backlash against the church in Canada from a legal perspective.  I still heard rants agaist homosexuals in meetings, still heard lessons about the law of chastity and still heard how dire things were for marriage, but not one legal repurcussion.
 
The thing you need to know about the law in Canada is how you preach.  If done in church from all current precident you can pretty much preach without worry.  Nothing in the gospel seems to break any law and for the most part seems pretty close to the US.  When it comes to the public asspect the tone is what tends to matter.  There has seemed to be a difference to simply just going about your day setting example explaining what you believe to others and why, and making a single issue holy crusade that denies the possibility that the other side has rights as well.
 
I always tend to be amused by all the doom sayers in America who say gay marriage will lead to so much.  We've had it for ten years and don't really have quite the same level of protections that Americans have and it's such a non topic.  Churches are left alone, no one has been forced to take part in a religious ceremony they didn't want to (don't think it's even occured to anyone).  In a country where it would be slightly more possible to have some of the "horrible must come to be due to gay marriage" not a single one has happened.

I do find in sad we are starting to see another version of don't ask don't tell, this time aimed more at those with religious convictions.    Not everyone is going to like what others say and do, but there does need to be a bit thicker skin all around.
 
Now as i pointed out earlier with people who take issue with the term homophobe ( i'm not a huge fan of it myself)  we are starting to see the terms Christianaphobe and starting to see the term persecution when applied to Christianity in North America more and more.  So if it's just silly to use the term homophobe, isn't it just as silly to use the term applying to Christianity?  Are Christians really being persecuted in America or are they having some growing pains rubbing up against another way of life that could very easily even out given time if both sides stop trying to win it all?

Here is another way of looking at it
 
You use the term Chritianphobia which i assume is a tongue in cheek reference to Homophobia.  The fact that you would use a term that you and many rolled your eyes at even tongue in cheek shows the circle i mention and that many others see.  If you are as willing to use the same old lingo that you were against and use the same tactics then how are we moving on or learning, just the same old same old circle.  If we aren't just taking each others place from the past shouldn't we be doing new things and learning rather than recycling?

Here is another way of looking at it
 
You use the term Chritianphobia which i assume is a tongue in cheek reference to Homophobia.  The fact that you would use a term that you and many rolled your eyes at even tongue in cheek shows the circle i mention and that many others see.  If you are as willing to use the same old lingo that you were against and use the same tactics then how are we moving on or learning, just the same old same old circle.  If we aren't just taking each others place from the past shouldn't we be doing new things and learning rather than recycling?

Hey Pammy, how are ya? Life has been crazy.  Another company closing down and another job search, yay for a bit of free time though lol.

Well you know I've been in retail too long when i saw the first bit of your story and before i read the response from the first salesman " YAY brand new market!!!!"
 
Also if it makes you feel better about me I have 0 interest in the 50 shades of gray movie :)
 
I also think for me personally part of the difference is i don't have a belief that humanity at it's core is good or wants to be good or any such thing.
 
Now while this seems like rambling and it is, needed to get a bit of it off my chest it holds true because it shows the mindset some people approach this issue with, and i think more people are starting to reach this place.  I don't believe in the good intentions of Christians, I don't believe they are good intentioned people.  I don't dislike them in general i just don't see the good in them, or anyone because for the most part people haven't given me reason in a long time to think of them as good.  I know a lot of gays like me, and i know a lot of Christians like me.  I also know others on the other side of the fence from both factions.  I don't like expecting the worst from people and being right, it's dreary and depressing, but gives me the nice benefit of usually being right.  I'm hopeful now and then and really would like to see a middle ground reached between religion and sexual orientation. That being said we all need to change just a bit and stop proving everyone right.  We need to stop and think " how would i feel?" and really think on it.  This isn't just pointed at Christians or any particular faith.  Everybody needs to start acting like the humans we want to see rather than what we say they should be.  In 20 years maybe 5% of people i've interacted with convinced me they were good people in thought and action, while my number might be low, how many people can say they really approach people thinking the best any more, or do we expect the worst and go from there?

As I've said before, and still don't like it, everything has come full circle.  Groups that used to be or watched others groups who were treated poorly by Christians have now put Christians in the hot seat.
 
As I've said before I don't like that things have gone full circle, but it's full court press against full court press , an eye for an eye with a lot more people blind to the past who can't see and learn from the past.  Each side keeps following in the steps of the other and each are just as guilty, and anyone who says " my side never....." is full of it.  both sides have taken horrible stances at times or done or said horrible things.  I don't like seeing the wrath being brought down on Christians like it is and i don't like them being victims, but those who can't see why the are becoming victims show me that this circle is not going to end any time soon because it shows people still aren't learning from their past errors and growing from them, and yes this goes for both sides.

Fair point Soulsearcher.  Part of the whole circle thing, is that cries of hypocrisy now get to abound from both sides.  You said you'd never be like this!  Yeah, well don't forget that you used to be like this!
 
Yikes.
 
Some really odd factors in this whole dilemma.  Christians remain about 70% of this country (though most would admit to high levels of nominal practice).  My understanding is that the LBGT community still comes in at about 3-4%.  Then there is the whole logger-head moral contrast:  Is LBGT akin to race, and are religious objections simply archaic cultural infusions into ancient texts?  Or, has God (especially the one represented in the Abrahamic religions) truly opposed to these behaviors and decisions?
 
Again yikes--because I don't see the "happy medium."  I do find it interesting that the vast majority of those white, educated, progressives are more likely to be Christian than they are to be LBGT.  At the same time, it is easy to believe that many mainstream (liberal/progressive/non-evangelical) Christians ARE more comfortable with the mostly easy-going LBGT community than with the often strident, even apocalyptic, conservative side of the Christian world.

The interesting thing, for me, is that this and similar acts really give the courts a HUGE amount of discretion in defining and applying terms like "infringe", "substantial burden", "compelling interest", etc.
Frankly, I no longer trust the judiciary with that kind of discretion--not where this issue is concerned. The act may well turn out not to be worth the paper it's printed on, when all is said and done.

As I've said before, and still don't like it, everything has come full circle.  Groups that used to be or watched others groups who were treated poorly by Christians have now put Christians in the hot seat.
 
As I've said before I don't like that things have gone full circle, but it's full court press against full court press , an eye for an eye with a lot more people blind to the past who can't see and learn from the past.  Each side keeps following in the steps of the other and each are just as guilty, and anyone who says " my side never....." is full of it.  both sides have taken horrible stances at times or done or said horrible things.  I don't like seeing the wrath being brought down on Christians like it is and i don't like them being victims, but those who can't see why the are becoming victims show me that this circle is not going to end any time soon because it shows people still aren't learning from their past errors and growing from them, and yes this goes for both sides.

As I've said before, and still don't like it, everything has come full circle.  Groups that used to be or watched others groups who were treated poorly by Christians have now put Christians in the hot seat.
 
As I've said before I don't like that things have gone full circle, but it's full court press against full court press , an eye for an eye with a lot more people blind to the past who can't see and learn from the past.  Each side keeps following in the steps of the other and each are just as guilty, and anyone who says " my side never....." is full of it.  both sides have taken horrible stances at times or done or said horrible things.  I don't like seeing the wrath being brought down on Christians like it is and i don't like them being victims, but those who can't see why the are becoming victims show me that this circle is not going to end any time soon because it shows people still aren't learning from their past errors and growing from them, and yes this goes for both sides.

The problem in this case is that it's not the gays denying they children their mother and father, or a mother and father at all.
 
For adoption there can not be a child to adopt if the child has not been given up for adoption.  This requires in most cases a straight man and woman to have a child then give up their rights as mother and father and leave the child to the system.  Now being there is no quota for gay adoptions, there are equal chances for straight couples and gay couple to adopt.  To the best of my knowledge all adoptive parents must pass a screening ( possibly not so much in private adoptions), so there is no favortisim.  So now if the rush of straight parent in Utah to adopt these kids was so great would there been enough to even have many children left now that the stay has been lifted?  I believe JAG pointed out the relativly low number of adoptions in Utah which leaves me asking do we leave these kids, who were abandonded by straight people the very mothers and fathers you are so supportive of, in the system until hopefully a straight couple comes along ( with every year making it be more unlikely), or do we try and get them out of the system faster into a home that will at least try to give a family setting vs a system run home or multiple foster homes.
 
The cries of denying children mothers and fathers when it comes to adoption rings hollow to me.  It's a great rallying cry if not for the fact that the mothers and fathers have given the child away and if the child is sitting there to be adopted then a straight couple for the most part hasn't already come and swooped them up.  Also  Gay men can show how to treat women as a wife isn't the only woman in a mans life.  Mothers, sisters, ect.  Fathers in my experience don't always provide the best examples of how to treat wives, but can be much different to other women in their lives.  And yeah it's awkward to have talks about tampons and bra's and such with girl who are growing up, but there are many ways to make it work, I almost enjoyed the bonding it gave when the topics came up with the little girl i raised, and giving advice on boys seemed to go better than what her mom said sometimes lol.

This question always baffels me as it shows an inability to quite understand what's going on.  "When are such desires instilled/" The answer comes back to a similar question for others " when were the same desires instilled in you?"  Can people pin point exactly when they start noticing attraction?  Can they pinpoint what started the desires they have?  Does it start with puberty, or with your first crush, or somewhere before or after?
 
As for control, it comes back to the same idea, the level of control is the same as with others.  To what extent can others control their thoughts and desires?  Can it be ignored or turned off?  It can be, but it's just as hard as it is for others.  Can it be changed?  Suggest they idea of being in a sexual realtionship with a man to most of the men on this site and ask for their gut reaction and that will tell you their ability to change their desires.

Remembering that while so much of this is true the Catholic church executed a couple of those great thinkers or cause them a life of torment for being so forward thinking.  And there is still some push back from the church even with some of the more recent advances made by some of their members.

Posted Today, 09:01 AM
I expected that a good many in the LBGT community--even from "moderates,"  would respond, "See?  How does it feel now that YOU are on the receiving end?"  Power does corrupt.  On the bright side, Christians do well under persecution.  We become stronger, and more Christ-like.  We grow.  I'm told that China now has more Christians, in raw numbers, than the United States.  They've been forged by the fires of persecution.  It may be an irony that LBGT payback (is that not what "see how it feels?" amounts to?) revives Christianity.
 
 
I think what most think isn't so much "how does it feel now" as much as will this teach humility that was lacking in the past.  Are the gays going over board, you bet, we need to learn our humility as well, but that being said we were shown that when Christians had the power they were corrupted by it and abused it with pride and little humility.  The did not follow the golden rule they just sought to rule.  The gays are just as guilty now don't get me wrong, but neither side really ever handled it with grace.

Posted Today, 09:01 AM
I expected that a good many in the LBGT community--even from "moderates,"  would respond, "See?  How does it feel now that YOU are on the receiving end?"  Power does corrupt.  On the bright side, Christians do well under persecution.  We become stronger, and more Christ-like.  We grow.  I'm told that China now has more Christians, in raw numbers, than the United States.  They've been forged by the fires of persecution.  It may be an irony that LBGT payback (is that not what "see how it feels?" amounts to?) revives Christianity.
 
 
I think what most think isn't so much "how does it feel now" as much as will this teach humility that was lacking in the past.  Are the gays going over board, you bet, we need to learn our humility as well, but that being said we were shown that when Christians had the power they were corrupted by it and abused it with pride and little humility.  The did not follow the golden rule they just sought to rule.  The gays are just as guilty now don't get me wrong, but neither side really ever handled it with grace.