John Prather

Thanks for telling me that I ought to get over it. I've definitely never heard that one before. *eye roll*
I'd like to see you try it. Seriously, something that affects every decision you make, financially and personally and professionally and medically and that leaves you feeling unspeakably empty every day, weakened, and of no importance to anyone except your spouse. Something that makes you hate your body, hate your other life goals, and that robs you of your friendships with other women because they cannot, or will not, accept you and attempt to understand you. That makes you afraid to go to social events and your nephews and neices baby blessings for fear that you will break down crying and furthe damage important relationships and lose more of your own self-respect. I could go on.. but I hope you see that this is something to not simply be moved past or gotten over. It takes decades, if it ever happens at all. 

During this period of my life, (age 27) my education, church callings, and my childbearing and rearing are the only things that are acceptable pursuits in the opinion my ward and the church culture in general. Everything else is selfish and vain. This is not the way it should be, but it is the way it is. When I get past the age of 35 perhaps I will be less hounded about the subject, but in my current state, the questions never cease. 

I'm sorry but this sounds terribly condescending and insensitive. Those who are suffering, every day, ceaselessly, because of a condition (any condition) that they neither chose nor caused in any way, are and should always be the first to deserve our charity, consideration, and respect. As difficult as parenthood can be for some, that difficulty is assuaged many times over by the support that parents receive from the church, government, and society in general. As difficult as a mission can be, it has an end date and the "perks" that come from having served, whether actual or simply perceived, are that person's for a lifetime. Those who are worthy to serve and have worked extra hard to become so, only to be turned away, have to live with the societal and emotional consequences of that for the rest of their lives.. not to mention the perpetual "what if?" questions in their head unless they are able to obtain a firm answer from the Lord at some point. 
 
 
It is obvious that I have come to the wrong place with this question. Please consider anyone in your acquaintance who may be suffering through grief caused by infertility or child loss, and NEVER say this in their presence. For the sake of your friendship.

I am infertile, and three seperate teams of doctors have not been able to tell me why I cannot concieve. The hardest part of the past six years have been all of the cultural and emotional ramifications of this non-diagnosis. So, as much as I would enjoy serving in YW at some point, I don't think I ever really could. I do not think I could trust myself to keep my mouth shut during all of the lessons about their future motherhood. The reality is, 1 out of 8 women will have trouble conceiving or carrying a pregnancy. Statistically, thats three girls out of our ward's current YW group who will struggle to get the chance to fulfill that role. I am certain that I would be much better off right now if I had never participated in the YW program. There was no way for anyone to tell what my future life would look like, so of course no one is to blame, but I was built up over 6+ years to expect and depend on my ability to bear children. The higher the expectations, the harder the crash and deeper the disappointment. I'm not saying we should devote entire lessons to infertility, or do away with lessons about motherhood, but there really ought to be a better balance between the two. Because while the church is kind to childless women, the people and culture of the church absolutely are not. Same goes for the expectations for "all worthy young men" to serve full time missions. Big expectations, preparing your whole life for an event, then when it can't happen you are supposed to just be okay with it. I think of this as a child who has to watch all of their siblings get everything they want for Christmas, but they recieve nothing, and are told that because they have no new toys to busy themselves with.. they can clean up the kitchen. 

First off, make sure at least one of you is not crazy.

I strongly disagree that suicide is selfish. In many cases, the mindset of the individual committing suicide is distorted to the extent that logical thinking is impossible. It's entirely likely that at the moment they go through with the act, they believe those they are leaving behind will ultimately be better off without them.

Quasimodo

Kirk, James Tiberius

I'm interested in the answer to Vort's question, too.  It's the concept of pushing an idea to an extreme to see if it still holds.
 
I have recently become more aware of this concept during a conversation i had with the hubby.  We were discussing a chapter we read together in a Christian book about forgiveness.  It reminded me of an unusual idea about forgiveness i had read in an LDS book.  I found the book and read the part i was thinking of to my hubby.  He said it was an interesting idea and held very well for the flippant example the author used but suggested we use a more extreme example to see if it still held.  We did, and the idea didn't hold very well for the more extreme example.  It was fascinating.  It doesn't mean the idea doesn't have merit at all, just that it maybe doesn't always hold for every situation.

I would strongly caution remarrying someone you divorced. You must remember the reasons why you divorced.

Hi Ruthiesmom -
 
I can understand being thrown for a loop by some of the newer stuff that's out there.  That said, I do think there's good scholarly evidence out there that leaves room for belief.  Given the way the Church has traditionally told its story, there may be some preconceptions you'll have to leave behind--but be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.  What factors led you to have a "testimony"?  Have those specific factors really changed?
 
Generally speaking:  Fairlds.org is a good apologetics site; so is JeffLindsay.com.  Joseph Smith's polygamy is covered in-depth by Brian Hales' website at josephsmithpolygamy.org.  FARMS/Maxwell Institute has some good info; so does MormonInterpreter.com.  Lots of folks here will also be happy to discuss your concerns, with the caveat that you'll probably see a better response if you open a new thread specifically dealing with each concern as opposed to simply creating a "laundry list thread" and continually shifting from one concern to the next (makes it easier to stay on topic).  :)
 
Pres. Uchtdorf's advice to "doubt your doubts" also has some merit.  Be sure to ask critical questions of those who are asking critical questions.  For example:
1.  Why is it so much worse if Joseph Smith translated most of the Book of Mormon through one magic rock (the Chase seer stone) as opposed to two magic rocks (Urim and Thummim)?
2.  Why would Smith bother to develop an Egyptian Grammar/Alphabet at all, if he knew it would be useless in translating any other Egyptian texts that might fall into his hands and might actually be used by his associates to constrain or undermine any future translations he might produce?
3.  Why did some of Joseph Smith's most bitter detractors nevertheless maintain that Fanny Alger was, in fact, sealed to Joseph Smith?
4.  If William McLellin's report was correct that everyone--or even a critical mass of attendees--was smashed at the Kirtland (not Nauvoo) Temple dedication, then why did McLellin--by his own account--try to conceal the visibly drunk Samuel Smith from the view of the rest of the congregation?
5.  Mormonism has a reasonably coherent theological rationale for why requests for some miracles--even when made via priesthood blessings--can go unanswered.  Can atheism produce any secular rationale for the miracles that do happen, other than the same "frenzied mind" "anyone-who-disagrees-with-me-is-mentally-ill" psychobabble that Korihor was spouting two millennia ago?
 
Anyhow . . . by all means, study it out; but remember that nobody discusses Mormonism without bias.  Those who claim to, are lying.  Be willing to admit what you don't know, and beware of anyone--inside or outside of Mormonism--who claims to have easy, pat answers for anything. 
 
And, don't buy into the idea that you Must Do Something Right Now.  You've lived the lifestyle.  It's not a bad one.  Your kids aren't being secretly introduced to cocaine, or groomed to participate in someone's harem.  Nothing's going to happen with your kids inside of Mormonism for the next few months--or even years, if that's what it takes--that won't be substantially reversible if you ultimately decide your conscience requires you to leave.  Take your time, do your research, fast, study, pray, and when you feel ready--make a decision and stick with it.

Sorry for my tardiness...
 
I will be 55 this summer next. I went my whole life just believing Father loved me, I mean, I read the scriptures, sang the songs but it was not more than that.
 
Two and a half years ago I experienced His love. Not a "hey I love you". It was His love that filled me. It FILLED me. It is impossible to describe and it changed my life. The thing is,... I don't believe anyone can just feel it,... rather it must be experienced,... or KNOWN... not without also "knowing" His love fore everyone,... just EVERYONE. I thought about it for a long time and I think of the first Matrix movie when Neo stepped out into the hall and saw everything in ones and zeros. I saw Gods love in the fabric of the all creation,... in me,... in everyone and everything. Especially in the scriptures. It is an experiential knowledge and deeply personal. Profound.
 
Is it a gift? Oh yes. But so much more. It has been the single most precious treasure of my life, what must have been less than a second... It must be experienced,... no words can convey it. Lehi and Nephi spoke of tasting the 'fruit' which is the "love of God" and I know what Lehi was trying to say. Mortality is such an inadequate  vessel for the greatest gift "charity".
 
John Prather... I know the Father and the sons love for you. That sounds so preposterous, but it is so real. More real than this dream we call life. I don't know why He gave it to me, I just don't know. Some are blessed with this, and others with that. Your experiences have been planned just for you though. Sometimes,... well, a lot of times we humans are very messy so there's that, but I don't believe He will keep the knowledge of His love from us, so why not start talking to Him about it,... and be patient,... listen and did I mention be patient?

I agree there's no such thing as a soul mate. Despite feeling that my husband and I are a perfect match, of course, we have shortcomings. But I don't think I ever lowered my expectations when I was dating. There was a criteria I felt absolute about. From there, I found a few losers and a few possibilities, but I never changed my standard I wanted in a man, initially.

One must go into a marriage with their eye's wide open, then squint while married.

My personal studies seem to indicate a few things that might be of interest.  I have often wondered why angles only came to a few shepherds in their fields - especially since a group of devoted followers of the coming of the Messiah knew within 3 years when he would be born were preparing not so far from Jerusalem (near the dead sea).  They were fasting and praying as well as performing baptisms, carefully  studying scriptures, devoting their entire lives to preparing for the Messiah and as near as I can tell all possible.  The had the Levitical priesthood and were officially operating and offering sacrifices at the temple.  No angles came to them?????  Why just the shepherds near Bethlehem????
 
At Bethlehem there were at the time two main things going on.  There was like a seminary school for Scribes and priests and a special group of shepherds that raised sheep for sacrifices at the temple and use of sheep skins for temples scrolls to record scripture.  It is my speculation that it was these shepherds watching the temple sheep that were visited as a sigh to the Jewish leadership class - that they were not worthy.  These temple shepherds were kind of the bottom of the barrel when it came to service status.
 
The Dead Sea scrolls ought to be a wake up call to those that think their efforts to serve G-d according to what they think is G-d's plan according to their understanding of scripture - were left out at the most important time.  We may think our membership in church and faith it scripture is not qualify us for that kind of spiritual blessing that was extended to those shepherds.

I wondered if shepards, being those who worked outside the city, may have been those who met a lot of travelors. The shepards may have been a communication hub. Tell one Shepard, you may as well rent a billboard!

When the original question is "why can't I feel God's love?", blithely replying "you just need to feel God's love" isn't particularly helpful.Do you think that chemical imbalances in the brain and poor psychological coping mechanisms can't affect feelings? Is your position that counting one's blessings won't bring one closer to God?

I'm not meaning to just argue...but the idea that every "apostate" is going through one of the best experiences of their life seems a mighty stretch to me. The idea that you could possibly know that she will exercise her agency as you describe also strikes me as entirely unknowable.
 
 
This, however, is spot on.

During my investigator years and then later in my wilderness years, I read a lot of ex-Mormon and anti-Mormon material.  I didn't seek it out exclusively, I just naturally tend to understand the center by studying the extremes.  After reading this material, I usually walked away with the same feeling I have now when I change my cat's litter box: stench and waste and a need to wash my hands pronto.  Those are harsh words, and I don't enjoy writing them, but I'm describing my true reaction.
 
In those anti-Mormon things I found very little constructive engagement or willingness to debate honorably... just a lot of hurt, angry people who thought they could get better if they focused all their pain and anger on the Church on whatever wavelength they could dial up.  Maybe not all of them, but the majority.  And just as a child learns very quickly what buttons to push to retaliate against a parent, many in the anti-Mormon community have learned what buttons to push to capsize faithful Mormons.  That old "Mormonism isn't Christian" button has been pushed so many times that it's ready to break off.
 
My college religion professor (a Calvinist) said he regarded as Christian any group that identified itself as Christian and believed it was sincerely following Christ.  I think he got it about right. 
 
"Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16), and "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:50).

Maybe. I personally see it as symbolic language, but it could also be literal.

I am not an expert in grief management, but here are some ideas from my own experiences. 
 
Recovering from the death of someone so close will often follow a zigzag path, and your mom may have good days and bad days.  When my mom was widowed (my stepfather), she would have bad days and she'd tell herself that all her days would be just as bad forever or even get worse.  That really wore her down.  At the time, I lacked the wisdom to tell her she'd learn ways to live without her husband and that she had plenty of good days ahead of her, even if she didn't feel that was possible.  (And indeed, she has had over two decades of a wonderful life after his passing and is still going strong.)
 
Also, for reasons that I still do not fully understand, my mom felt that God was punishing her by allowing her husband to die, and that he'd still be alive if she had been a better person.  Then she went into a period where she read about ouija boards and thought she'd still be able to communicate with him beyond the grave.  Fortunately, this bizarre behavior came and went very quickly.  Your mom's grief may pop out in all kinds of strange ways.  If that happens, gently guide her back to the right track and be ready to call in professional help if needed.
 
Keep your mom plugged in with lots of routine contact from lots of people, but listen to her very carefully and give her her space if she wants it.  I would take care not to pester her with lots of bland questions about "how she is doing."  I would open all conversations with her with something very specific, like "what are your plans for today?" or "how was your visit last night with so-and so?"  Most importantly, talk about whatever she wants to talk about, including nothing if that's what she wants.
 
I am a big believer in the healing power of living creatures.  If your mom doesn't have a pet with warm blood and fur, consider loaning her one that she can sleep with (if she is an animal lover).  Be careful about giving pets, because it can create stress that she doesn't need. Get her to volunteer at the local SPCA.  Or any other worthwhile things that will break up her time alone in her house.  And don't just tell her to volunteer... go with her. 
 
I've heard from several relatives that learning to sleep alone in bed is the hardest part about losing a spouse.  Maybe you could pick some part of the house to rearrange or redecorate?  A few pleasant changes to your mom's life might refocus her energies away from that very difficult change two weeks ago.
 
Best wishes... losing a parent or a spouse is tough.  I'm sorry again about your loss.  And I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I suspect that your relatioship with your mom will deepen and change in some big ways.  Welcome and embrace this.

I also remember of a story, I think it was Hugh B. Brown, that took place during WW I. He met a French woman who had lost her husband and three of her sons to the war. She was asked how she was coping with the situation in her life. She replied she left it at the alter. What does this mean? Leaving it at the alter aka casting your burdens upon Christ?

I heard Mirkwood was making a Cthuken for Thanksgiving.  
 

 
http://gothamist.com/2013/12/16/cthuken.php

I think it is definitely a spiritual gift. So many people are unaware of how much Heavenly Father loves them, and if you can feel it, it is a gift for sure.