hagoth

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  1. Like
    hagoth got a reaction from Chrisberockin in Wayne May — Book of Mormon Archaeology in North America   
    OK, I think I found the source which some think came from Joseph.
     
    "...there is a document in the handwriting of Frederick G. Williams, one of Joseph's counselors...which...has been attributed to Joseph...: The course that Lehi traveled from the city of Jerusalem to the place where he and his family took ship, they traveled nearly a south southeast direction until they came to the nineteenth degree of North latitude, then nearly east to the sea of Arabia then sailed in a south east direction and landed on the continent of South America in Chili thirty degrees south of latitude." (Cheesman 1978, 22)
     
    One recent author concluded: "Considering how specific this statement is -- giving the degree of latitude for both the location where Lehi set sail and the place where he landed -- it seems much more likely that it was the inspiration of Orson Pratt than of Joseph Smith."
     
    I can't speak to how accurate that conclusion is, but there is no statement known to be from Joseph (that I'm aware of) that refers to Chile.
     
    By way of interest, there is also an article in the Times and Seasons, 15 Sept. 1842 which asserts that Lehi and his party landed a little south of the isthmus of Darius (Panama). However, two weeks prior, Joseph clearly announced he was in hiding and had temporarily handed his administrative duties over to others. Apparently, those administrative duties included overseeing the newspaper. (That prior announcement was subsequently printed in the same September 15th issue of the Times and Seasons as a separate article.) So the reference to Lehi landing a little south of Panama is apparently not from Joseph either.
     
    A few weeks later, on November 1st, there was no issue of the Times of Season produced, even though it was supposed to be issued twice a month, on the 1st and on the 15th of each month. Two weeks later, Joseph officially admitted in that paper: "I beg leave to inform the subscribers of the Times and Seasons that it is impossible for me to fulfill the arduous duties of the editorial department any longer. The multiplicity of other business that daily devolves upon me renders it impossible for me to do justice to a paper so widely circulated as the Times and Seasons. I have appointed Elder John Taylor, who is less encumbered and fully competent to assume the responsibilities of that office..." As an example of how busy he had otherwise been, between Sept 15th and Nov 1st, there isn't a single article signed as being from him as the acting editor.
     
    From all of this, it appears Joseph was simply too busy with more important duties to act as editor of a newspaper during late 1842, so I wouldn't put too much weight on anything published in the Times and Seasons during those months. Wikipedia asserts that even during the few months when Joseph was listed as the official editor, the "operation was actually run by John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff."
     
    Take it for what you will.
     
    Regards.
  2. Like
    hagoth got a reaction from Chrisberockin in Wayne May — Book of Mormon Archaeology in North America   
    I'm not aware of any Joseph Smith statement regarding Chile. Can you provide one?
     
    Long after Joseph's death, Orson Pratt did make two statements about Chile in the Journal of Discourses. Is this what you are referring to?
     
    http://journalofdiscourses.com/12/65
    http://journalofdiscourses.com/14/44
     
    Elder Pratt said: "As near as we can judge from the description of the country contained in this record the first landing place was in Chile, not far from where the city of Valparaiso now stands."
     
    It doesn't sound, from that statement, that Elder Pratt is speaking from inspiration. Based on his own words, it sounds more like mere intellect at work. So I wouldn't put too much weight into such later statements as this, when weighed against Joseph earlier statements to the contrary.
     
    That said, I respect your right to believe as you wish.
  3. Like
    hagoth got a reaction from Zion1991 in Do you ever wonder about the Christmas shepherds?   
    I read a book a few years back, that suggested the three wise men were the brothers Nephi and Lehi, accompanied by Samuel the Lamanite - all three of whom apparently vanished from Nephite history a few years before Christ's birth. As I recall, the book claimed the darker skin of Samuel may offer an explanation for the legend behind the dark-skinned wise man known later as Balthasar. If I remember correctly, the book was called From the East. If anyone is  interested, here is a link that discusses some of the same evidence as the book.  Thoughts?
  4. Like
    hagoth got a reaction from Average Joe in Aloha and Aloha   
    Hi
     
    I've been with the forum for several months and wanted to say thanks for an enjoyable time.
     
    I will be withdrawing for quite a bit now to focus on a few projects. Best wishes to all. :)
  5. Like
    hagoth got a reaction from Average Joe in Just a question about the Nephite Temple   
    Understood. Here's a short primer, if interested.
    http://www.candlestickstudio.com/files/Nephites.pdf
  6. Like
    hagoth got a reaction from Blackmarch in Just a question about the Nephite Temple   
    Of course.
     
    Around 98 AD, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote a short account about northwestern Europe called "Germania."
     
    In chapter 40 of that work, in the same breath as mentioning Lombards and Angles, Tacitus says,
     
    "In an island of the Ocean stands a sacred grove, and in the grove a consecrated cart, draped with cloth, which none but the priest may touch. The priest perceives the presence of the goddess in this holy of holies and attends her, in deepest reverence, as her cart is drawn by heifers (milk cows). Then follow days of rejoicing and merry-making in every place that she designs to visit and be entertained. No one goes to war, no one takes up arms; every object of iron is locked away; then, and only then, are peace and quiet known and loved, until the priest again restores the goddess to her temple..."
     
    (Compare the OT account of a cart, drawn by cows (1 Sam 6) https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/1-sam/6.7,10-11?lang=eng#6 , or even oxen, on which the ark sat. Like the chariot in northwestern Europe, the ark could not be touched by anyone but the priests.  https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/2-sam/6.3,6?lang=eng#2. Likewise, the conveyance of the cart before battle in northwestern Europe was akin to the conveyance of the ark in ancient Israel before going to battle.)
     
    Tacitus calls this female god Nerthus. Some modern linguists and anthropologists equate her to the male god Njord, who is associated with the sea, seafaring, wind, fishing, wealth, and farming. They have no explanation for the gender shift. Tacitus may have been wrong in assuming the god was female.
     
    According to at least one medieval account, Njord was the the son of a seafaring immigrant who arrived on the coast of northern Europe. Medieval accounts place Njord and his seafaring father (from whom European dynasties claim to descend) in the 1st century BC, making them contemporary with Hagoth's voyagers.
  7. Like
    hagoth got a reaction from Blackmarch in Just a question about the Nephite Temple   
    Of course.
     
    Around 98 AD, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote a short account about northwestern Europe called "Germania."
     
    In chapter 40 of that work, in the same breath as mentioning Lombards and Angles, Tacitus says,
     
    "In an island of the Ocean stands a sacred grove, and in the grove a consecrated cart, draped with cloth, which none but the priest may touch. The priest perceives the presence of the goddess in this holy of holies and attends her, in deepest reverence, as her cart is drawn by heifers (milk cows). Then follow days of rejoicing and merry-making in every place that she designs to visit and be entertained. No one goes to war, no one takes up arms; every object of iron is locked away; then, and only then, are peace and quiet known and loved, until the priest again restores the goddess to her temple..."
     
    (Compare the OT account of a cart, drawn by cows (1 Sam 6) https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/1-sam/6.7,10-11?lang=eng#6 , or even oxen, on which the ark sat. Like the chariot in northwestern Europe, the ark could not be touched by anyone but the priests.  https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/2-sam/6.3,6?lang=eng#2. Likewise, the conveyance of the cart before battle in northwestern Europe was akin to the conveyance of the ark in ancient Israel before going to battle.)
     
    Tacitus calls this female god Nerthus. Some modern linguists and anthropologists equate her to the male god Njord, who is associated with the sea, seafaring, wind, fishing, wealth, and farming. They have no explanation for the gender shift. Tacitus may have been wrong in assuming the god was female.
     
    According to at least one medieval account, Njord was the the son of a seafaring immigrant who arrived on the coast of northern Europe. Medieval accounts place Njord and his seafaring father (from whom European dynasties claim to descend) in the 1st century BC, making them contemporary with Hagoth's voyagers.
  8. Like
    hagoth reacted to The Folk Prophet in A note on pronouncing the word "shew"   
    Unlike Pam, I will doggedly continue to purposefully pronounce it "shoe" with a very distinct w (tight-lipped oo) at the end.
  9. Like
    hagoth got a reaction from Average Joe in Just a question about the Nephite Temple   
    As some here may know, I am of the opinion (for many reasons), that a number of Nephites migrated to ancient northern Europe.
     
    And it just so happens that there is an ancient account that traces to that region, a few generations after Hagoth, which tells of a steadying of the ark taboo strikingly parallel to that of the Old Testament.
     
    Take it for what you will.
  10. Like
    hagoth reacted to pkstpaul in Decision Paralysis: How can you overcome it?   
    The book "The Magic of Thinking Big", helped me. There is a chapter describing how "action cures fear."  It has been a motto in my life now since I was 18 years old.
     
    You may not realize what you are facing is fear.
     
    Indecision is inaction. Take movement forward and the fear will go away. Afraid to make a phone call, stand up and reach for the phone. You'll feel the fear evaporate. Same with writing or drawing a plan. Take the first step.
  11. Like
    hagoth reacted to Traveler in Utah Mormons   
    As a young man preparing for a mission - I thought I was going to go to Germany.  I already loved and idolized German society and culture - my number one hero was Dr. Werner von Braun.  I spoke German and I thought myself a perfect candidate to bring the Pure Gospel of Christ to  the German people.  But I was called to the North Western States Mission.  I had transfers on my mission that farther than coming home.  What a disappointment to all my preparations - I had memorized all the discussions and all 270+ missionary scriptures before being called.  My first area was in the far off reaches of Idaho.  The truth is that rural places are just not that intellectually sophisticated - I was prepared for much better.
     
    What made matters worse was my first companion - He was tall (big) and clumsy.  He was a native American that was blind in one eye and wore an eye patch.  He was about to end his mission and his mission and it had not been that good of an experience for him.  He was not well educated and did not even know a single missionary discussion - and I doubt he could find more than 3 scriptures.  He was a real piece of work and not the best example of a missionary.  Or so it seem at first to me.  I was so disappointed and discouraged - I honestly thought my mission was ruined at the start.
     
    What I am typing now is bringing tears to my eyes - He was perhaps my greatest companion.  He changed my thinking, my life and the very essence of my missions purpose.  He had been misunderstood by everyone in the mission - He was despised by other missionaries and treated with great disrespect.   He had one positive - he loved simple people and he loved Jesus.  He turned out to be one of my most trusted friends - a person I have turned to for advice in so many things.  Not because he knows so much more but because he lives so much more and has been through so much more and is full of love that makes no sense at all.
     
    Sometimes the greatest callings are to serve those that others despise and think to be jerks.  Sometimes we learn the most from folks the most unlike us - just because they are different.  Perhaps if you are living in a crappy ward full of jerks - maybe, just maybe - you should consider a change of heart and thank G-d for the opportunity to serve those others find difficult.  The blessing is that you will end up loved despite all your difficulties.
  12. Like
    hagoth reacted to lagarthaaz in Intellectualism welcome?   
    A recent talk by Elder Ballard on this very topic: 'There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions'
     
    "Let me make sure that you are hearing my epistle and that you understand this important point. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions or investigating our history, doctrine, and practices. The Restoration began when Joseph Smith sought answers to his sincere questions...
     
    When someone comes to you with a question or a concern, please do not brush the question off—do not tell him or her to not worry about the question. Please do not doubt the person’s dedication to the Lord or His work. Instead, help the person find the answers to their questions...
     
    We have heard stories where someone asking honest questions about our history, doctrine, or practice were treated as though they were faithless. This is not the Lord’s way. As Peter said, “Be ready always to give an answer to every man [or woman] that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you...
     
    We need to do better in responding to honest questions. Although we may not be able to answer every question about the cosmos or about our history, practices, or doctrine, we can provide many answers to those who are sincere.
    Help those with questions to realize that the Lord does not require His Saints to have advanced degrees in history and Church doctrine... The Church is blessed with trained scholars and those who have devoted a lifetime of study, who have come to know our history and the scriptures. These thoughtful men and women provide context and background so we can better understand our sacred past and our current practices." Russell M. Ballard (September 13, 2015). 
  13. Like
    hagoth got a reaction from LiterateParakeet in Utah Mormons   
    I wouldn't dare question what you deem best for your kids. Some of my nephews and at least one of my nieces had some terrible experiences outside of Utah - such that parents and kids alike were relieved to finally move to Utah. (They've moved outside of Utah again, at least for awhile, but are now homeschooling to avoid repeats of the former situations.)
  14. Like
    hagoth reacted to Jamie123 in Antarctic Exploration   
    No...this is *not* more drivel about the Flat Earth people and how Antarctica is really a giant ice-wall holding the oceans in and spilling out into...well presumably into Nifelheim and the roots of Ygdrassil (if you're into that sort of thing).
     
    This is something far more important...
     
    The fact is that Antarctic exploration makes me VERY angry!
     
    Why? Well there are two very important reasons...
     
    Firstly because Roald Amundsen ate his dogs!
     
    They were nice cute husky dogs that anyone else would have been glad to have for a pet. Good, loyal, faithful, hard-working dogs who pulled his sleds all the way to the south pole, allowing him to beat Scott (who despite his poor organization played things fair as far as doggy-woof-woofs went). And how did that Norwegian git repay them? By using them not only as a source of propulsion but also as a source of food.
     
    He and his men ate almost the whole lot of them! While Scott was freezing and Oats was going out for "some time", the Norwegians were stuffing themselves with husky-burgers and fries! Amundsen brought only ONE dog back to Norway. You can see it today, stuffed in a museum in Olso. 
     
    If you ask me Amundsen should be disqualified, and the credit given to Scott instead! 
     
    (Please excuse me while I go and grind my teeth.)
     
    But there's another reason as well...
     
    When I was 10 years old, my teacher (I'll call him Mr. Keswick - which is very nearly his name) told us the story of Robert Falcon Scott, and how he used horses to pull his sleds to the pole. I asked him why he didn't use mechanical tractors to pull the sleds. Mr. Keswick looked at me and said "For goodness sake this was in 1910! Did they have mechanical tractors then?"
     
    Now I had no idea whether they had mechanical tractors in 1910, but the class was already looking at me with amusement, so instead of confessing my ignorance I said "no". Mr.Keswick then led the whole class in a good old laugh at "stupid old Jamie".
     
    Well, that summer, when our family was on holiday, I was given some spending money by my Ma and Da which I used to buy a book about Antarctic exploration. (I bought a book on dinosaurs too, but that doesn't come into this story.) On the centre pages it had a cut-out penguin which you made to stand up by pasting it to a toilet roll middle. It also had the story of Scott's and Amundsen's expeditions and - in the middle of one page was a picture of a vehicle with caterpillar tracks, and a caption underneath reading "Motorized sled used by Scott on his 1910 expedition to the south pole!"
     
    Check it out here: http://mp.natlib.govt.nz/image/?imageId=images-18720&profile=access
     
    So Scott DID attempt to use "tractors". He had two of them. Admittedly neither of them reached the South Pole, but my question had been quite valid! Despite the teacher-induced snickering all around the classroom, it wasn't "stupid old Jamie" at all. It was "stupid old Mr. Keswick!"
     
    So I got a train straight back home, went to Mr.Keswick's house, grabbed him by the front of his shirt, pushed the picture in his face and shouted "Look at this, Mush! Who's stupid now???!!!"
     
    Well ... OK so the last bit of the story is pure fantasy but I certainly did it in my head!
  15. Like
    hagoth reacted to LiterateParakeet in Just going to leave this here, and see what discussion comes.   
    I need to wash my eyes...that was disturbing.  
  16. Like
    hagoth reacted to Capitalist_Oinker in Utah Mormons   
    I'm reminded of an incident that occurred once when some friends and I were traveling through Arizona on our way to hunt Javelina. We stopped at a small gas station, and a very large, surely gentleman (I assume he noticed our Utah plates) challenged us and said, "you guys *&%$# Mormons?"
    One of my friends piped up and said, "Naw, we're just regular Mormons. The kind you're talking about all live in California."  
     
    I've lived in Utah all my life, and it's always been those "California" Mormons to us. Now all of a sudden I find out there's a problem with Utah Mormons.
    Sheesh, who knew? 
  17. Like
    hagoth got a reaction from LiterateParakeet in Intellectualism welcome?   
    Scripture tells us repeatedly that we are to love God with all our heart, might, MIND, and strength. (emphasis added) https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/4.2?lang=eng#1
     
    God depicts himself (and his servants) as one who reasons with and persuades mankind. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/isa/1.18?lang=eng#17 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/45.10?lang=eng#9 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/eccl/7.25?lang=eng#24 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/1-sam/12.7?lang=eng#6  https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/121.41?lang=eng#40
     
    As John said, "In the beginning was the Word." Greek="logos", a cognate from which our English language gets the word "logic".
     
    My father taught me decades back in missionary training classes that every investigator and member eventually needs three kinds of conversion for lasting activity in the church, social conversion (finding a support group of friends in the church), intellectual conversion https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/88.118?lang=eng#117, and spiritual conversion.The latter conversion, the spiritual, is the most important, and is the core objective, but even that important element can slip if the other two aren't firmly in place to help shield, strengthen, and protect a newly-emerging spiritual conviction. As my father described it, it's a three-legged stool, where all three legs are important.
     
    Thoughts?
  18. Like
    hagoth got a reaction from pkstpaul in Utah Mormons   
    Take it as you will. In some places outside of Utah, some in Utah are perceived as taking the Church for granted. Call that unkind, uncharitable, prejudiced, or whatever you will, but my wife was raised for part of her formative years in Utah, and has somewhat of a similar opinion. She is grateful that her family moved to other states when she was a teenager where she had to learn to find and stand up for her testimony, and be different. (I'm *not* saying such a thing can't be done in Utah.)
     
    Call that pride or arrogance if you wish. She is, however, reasonably humble and down to earth.
  19. Like
    hagoth reacted to pkstpaul in Utah Mormons   
    Sorry, you have to give 100% or you'll continue to be shouted down.
     
    You all know...I believe that the fact the saying is easily recognized is because it is easily idenfiable; meaning people understand it. It may be that many of you are offended by it, but people use it because they believe it.
     
    I personally don't think of Utah Mormon as a personality trait (like rudeness). I think of the culture created when you have a majority rule in a neighborhood or town. You can't deny it creates a culture. That discussion has been in the forum before. One woman came here because she was doing an anthropology paper and wanted evidence of the cultural impact of Utah Mormons. I followed up with her. She got an A on her paper.
  20. Like
    hagoth reacted to clwnuke in Utah Mormons   
    Having grown up outside of Utah I think I can relate to people's feelings about "Utah Mormons", but I have seen the cold reception to the ward experience in places other than Utah. Too many Mormons look and act like they have been "weaned on lemon juice through a dill pickle".
     
    Now that I am older I can understand that there are definite psychological differences between growing up in a place where the Church is strong and dominant versus a place where you are a very small minority. It does result in different expectations and behavior, but there is never a reason for any ward to be unfriendly and clique-ish.
     
    Do your best to make the ward a better place, love your neighbors, and let the Lord do the judging. Be the most wonderfully wacky outside influence for good that you can be :)
  21. Like
    hagoth reacted to lagarthaaz in Utah Mormons   
    I am from Australia too, and have had similar experiences both here and in Utah, so I don't think the problem is universal to 'Utah Mormons'. People just get busy and set in their routines and the 'busy-ness' of Sundays, and I think sometimes we don't take time to stop and really 'see' who is new to the ward and welcome them. When I was in Utah, I did find that eventually I did get to know some really lovely people as friends - but it just took time to settle in. 
     
    You said "There are a few other families that have moved in during the past couple years and they, too, are ignored." - just wondering how you know that if you've only recently moved there?  If this is the case - can you reach out to these families, something easy like a playdate for kids or something - then you'll get to know the parents and start to forge relationships in the ward. 
     
    Can you also seek out the EQ Pres, Bishop, RS Pres and Primary Pres...make sure they all know who you are (with the new focus on ward councils you'll hopefully get a mention by at least one of them).
     
    Having said all that, I do understand the challenge of being in a ward dominated by major family or cultural groups. It can feel isolating for those of us on the 'outside' to see large families in the church socialising together to the exclusion of others, but we need to remember that they are simply nurturing their own family relationships.
     
    It will take time, but don't worry, you will make friends in your new ward...just keep reaching out to others and try not to be discouraged in the meantime.  :)
  22. Like
    hagoth reacted to jerome1232 in Utah Mormons   
    I like to tease Utah Mormons but it's in lighthearted fun, I'm technically one of them by birth so they have to be good people.

    It's funny though, I get anxious in social situations, nothing extreme, I just don't do the small talk thing and it all gets awkward when people try to strike up a conversation right before elders quorum. I just have this mindset that I'm there for church I guess. Anyways, I want to find your ward and move into it. So no one tries to talk to me. It would be great. People are always trying to chat and I'm sitting there trying to fumble my way through a short exchange about the weather hoping the lessons starts soon so I can stop fumbling about the weather.

    It's also possible that your preconceived bias played into your experience. In my head I am imagining you sitting there like this:

     
    And wondering why no one will say hello.
  23. Like
    hagoth got a reaction from lagarthaaz in Utah Mormons   
    Jojo, while I understand your valid concern, Eowyn has a very important point.
     
    (I say that as someone who was raised outside of Utah, and said I would never want to live there. I've actually ended up spending about two decades of my life in Utah since saying such a thing, and my experiences in wards here have actually been quite pleasant...along the lines that Eowyn has suggested...even though I am introverted by nature.)
  24. Like
    hagoth reacted to Windseeker in Sad news: Elder Scott has died   
    That's sad. I always really enjoyed him. He reminded me of Mr Rogers with his kind, gentle and instructive manor. He'll be missed.
  25. Like
    hagoth reacted to The Folk Prophet in Sad news: Elder Scott has died   
    This news made me sad. I loved Elder Scott very much. What a great man.