Catlick
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Posts posted by Catlick
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3 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:
What happens to all those late fees people have to pay out? I always wondered if there is a super duper librarian dinner that gets put on once a year from all the late fees.
That would be great! Actually, it goes back into the budget that is spent on replacing books that have been lost by patrons.
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It is so helpful to hear from other converts, An Investigator! And congrats on 'taking the plunge'!
Great point about Catholics being drawn to the LDS church, it would be a matter of the recognition of the truth, wouldn't it? I never thought of it that way! And Put Your Shoulder to the Wheel is one of my favorites, too! As well as I'll Go Where You Want me to Go.
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Iggy, I am a librarian by trade and I would love to eventually be called as librarian. I haven't even been baptized yet, but that would be soooo cool!
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Jane_Doe, It is so good to hear that you don't hesitate to keep in contact with friends from your former congregation. And the music--thank you for such a practical way of looking at it. Of course, I can still listen to the music, it won't just disappear. I think I need to make my peace with still having those aspects of my Catholicism with me while taking on a new faith identity.
anatess2, thank you so much. Comparing tithing to taxes is something that never crossed my mind, what a helpful comparison! It really helps put it in perspective, and I do see the good it does in doing the work of the church, maintaining buildings, etc. That makes total sense. Still something I'd have to budget out, and something I don't look forward to discussing with my agnostic husband. I'll keep praying on this, because I feel so strongly led on this path.
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tesuji, that is one of my favorite quotes as well! It has definitely helped put things in perspective for me. And the ward members have told me that keeping in touch with my Catholic friends and any social events is fine, and may help ease the process. I just know for sure that the LDS church is true and probably the truest thing I've heard with regard to the meaning of life. Thank you.
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Hi all,
Well, two years of investigating and I'm still stuck and undecided. Thank you all for bearing with me. I've worked through many of the roadblocks I've had over baptism, yet there are still a couple of issues that I'm struggling with.
The first is tithing in a single-member family. The missionaries told me that since my husband will not be joining the church and I am a stay at home mom, my tithing responsibility would be zero. However, I am in the job market and will likely be back at work in the next year or so. It is my understanding that once I'm working, I would be tithing based on my own income. I've done the math, and I would be tithed about $350-400 a month based on a $50,000 a year salary. Yikes! That is a car payment--on a *nice* car, and would basically be what I would be paying in after school child care. It wouldn't even make working worth it at that point, and I love my field of work (librarianship) and would not want to lose it. For full-member families, tithing is a given, but for me, it is quite a daunting thought. (Not that I'm planning on buying a car, but I'm just using that to quantify just how much of our budget that would constitute.)
My second question is more emotional in nature. Although at this point I am in opposition to Catholic doctrine, I've only ever been Catholic and I'm afraid I would get "homesick." While I am ideologically in line with LDS beliefs, I worry that once I'm a church member I would miss my parish, the music, my old church community, etc. Have any of you converted and had to deal with the emotional aspect of leaving behind a faith tradition? How did you cope?
These are such strange, random issues to be blocked by, I know! I'm trying my best to resolve these issues so I can go into a possible baptism with no regrets or second thoughts.
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It is so interesting to see the topic of "friendshipping" brought up, because I've been wondering about this just recently. I began investigating the church about a year ago. I met several other moms at my sons' school who are LDS, and I knew nothing about the church at that point. They seemed so friendly, and so welcoming, and encouraged the friendship between our kids. I felt so valued. We talked about faith at times, and they knew I wasn't 100% invested in my Catholic faith, that I was having doubts. We were invited to a few baptisms, and I was introduced to two sister missionaries by one of my friend's husbands. At that point, I was intrigued and was a "golden investigator"--I had lots of questions and was very open to hearing what the missionaries had to say.
Fast forward a year--I'm still studying with the missionaries and am seriously considering baptism. However, I've noticed a change. Now that I'm in the "missionaries' hands," my friends have stepped back. I won't lie--I'm hurt. I miss their friendship, and there are no more play dates, no more texts, no more interaction on Facebook. I've actually emailed one of my closest friends (the wife of a bishop) a couple of times about my journey, about how I'm excited yet afraid of baptism, about how much I appreciated the lovely ward members that I've since met, and while she's replied, there is something guarded about her responses. She knows I'm considering baptism, yet I've had no "check-ins," nothing I would probably do for a nonmember investigating friend. I would have invited that nonmember to my home for General Conferene this weekend (I watched it at my home), I would be responding with enthusiasm and joy. When I see her at the school, its a quick hello as she walks briskly by.
Hmm. I can't help but to think I've been dropped. It hurts, and I don't know what to think. That said, it doesn't make my love for the LDS church any less. I still study my scriptures, and although it may take me some time to be baptized, I do believe this church holds the fullness of truth.
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I'm so glad to read all of these responses, they really do help me clarify how much I'm relying on intellectual knowledge vs heart knowledge. And I agree that sometimes questions are really just veiled challenges, and I hate that. Rhetorical arguments are mean spirited and dishonest. Which is exactly why I came here to ask my questions (and continue to do so!)--there never seems to be an appropriate time to ask about the WoW, or temple garments, or why sealings are necessary, etc. I don't want to offend my close friends, as I value their friendship too much. I would never ask at Sacrament Meeting or in Doctrine and Covenants class for fear of sounding like one of those who is couching a criticism in an "innocent" question. So I come here just to lay out my honest thoughts and questions and get direct answers. Thank you all so much! This is an invaluable space for me to learn.
- Blackmarch, askandanswer, yjacket and 1 other
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hagoth, your 3-legged stool example is how I've always experienced faith, thank you for that. And thanks for the D&C links--those are very helpful in remembering that heavenly logic is on a level that I cannot understand as a human. That requires humility, and I know my pride gets in the way of that. Something more to pray on.
estradling75, you make a good point. I think that my coming from a non-LDS background, I tend to assume that religions all have that theological background and desire/ability to discuss the deeper issues. Someone mentioned in this thread that I'm not questioning doctrine at this point, but culture of the church. I have a fear holding me back that I won't fit in, that I'll question at some point in my life (I always do in matters of faith), and that I'll keep thinking like a Catholic (even though I don't ascribe to Catholic doctrine). Oy vey.
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In reference to something mentioned above; If you are interested there is a whole slew of LDS books. You can find them generally in LDS books stores. The one that most members would be familiar with is Deseret Books. I also find quite a few intellectually minded books can be found through the Maxwell Institute or FAIR mormon online bookstore.
(I wish I could figure out how to quote all of you in one post, sorry about multi-posting, but here goes one more...)
I live in California, and we don't have any LDS bookstores that I know of. I'll check out Deseret Book and the others you mention online, but I'd love to physically browse an LDS bookstore! I've gotta make that Salt Lake road trip someday, I really do.
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I love when non members think we are all a bunch of idiots. One guy was bashing us (LDS) left and right and I asked him bluntly, "So all the doctors and Ph.Ds who are LDS are just idiots too, huh?" He said "Well, no thinking person could be LDS." I asked him to read my masters thesis and he couldn't get by the first page. Too many "big words".
Wow, sounds like a jerk! Truly, my LDS friends are some of the smartest people I know--they're all professionals and have not only spent plenty of time in grad school for the book smarts, but have the life experience that I don't that makes them especially aware of the human experience (probably due to the mission years?)
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I think we should be very cautious about the amount of time we spend becoming more intellectual (which is different than intellectualism). The intangibles of spirituality, being a good neighbor, working hard, etc. are all things that don't come from reading a book or doing research-they come from action. How much time do we spend learning more vs. having a prayer in our heart and constantly communicating with our God? It is a rhetorical question, b/c I most certainly am guilty focusing more on the intellectual vs. action.
While I don't totally agree with you, yjacket, that there is no place for reason in the church, I love what you wrote above. I've spent so much time trying to figure things out in my head that I'm no closer to baptism and I still feel confused. I don't want to still be in this same place ten years from now, trying to make things fit on the rational level while not actually practicing my faith. I am going to print your words out, in fact, so that I have them as a reminder. I needed to hear this.
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If you're talking about Kate Kelly, she was excommunicated for politically campaigning against the ways of the Lord- thinking that human lawyer will change the divine. After being instructed by leaders of the Lord that this is not the right way, she said "I know better and will try to convince others of it". After that, yes, she was excommunicated. Since leaving the LDS church, she has joined the Planned Parenthood payroll.If you're talking John Dehlin, he no longer believed in the divinity of Christ, and was activity trying to get others to see his side, while make a nice pay check doing it. So yes, he was excommunicated too.Neither of these were excommunicated for thinking, but rather declare war against God and saying "I know better".Again, thinking and intellect is a wonderful thing. But pride is a horrible thing too.
Nice to see you again, too, Jane_Doe! And thanks for taking the time to answer yet another of my questions.
Yes, I am thinking of Kate Kelly, and you make a good point. She didn't get excommunicated for thinking wayward thoughts--she got excommunicated for actively pursuing a path against the church and trying to get others to come along with her. Same with John Dehlin. Thanks for clarifying that--I think my fears got the best of me and I thought that my questions about God and life and everything in between would get me in trouble or something! ;D -
It might not be a bad idea to read the whole of Packer's speech, in order to understand where he was coming from. Here's an online version of it.
IMHO: "Intellectualism" is to "Intellectual" as "Islamist" is to "Islam" (or, to be grammatically proper, "Muslim"). Neither "intellectuals" nor "Muslims" are bad. The trouble happens when groups of people claiming either label, decide that they should be granted disproportionate control of the broader society within which they exist. Thus, Elder Packer notes in the same talk:
I see your point. Yes, some intellectuals use their minds as weapons, the way an Islamist does to further their agenda. Good parallel.
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I think that intellectualism is one of those virtues that can become a vice.
I really like this! Thanks for the input--what you say makes so much sense. My faith has always been part and parcel of my reasoning mind, and you're right--How can I even assume that my human brain can grasp God's truth? I do feel like I'm spinning my wheels sometimes, maybe I just want to have some company to spin those wheels with. When my mind does find an intersection between my faith and my knowledge, my mind is blown in a good way. I love it when that happens, and I like to keep my logic and my heart intermingled. Ah, I do need to pray on this.
- jerome1232 and Jane_Doe
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Good to hear my thoughts validated, LiterateParakeet. And yes, I'm familiar with Dehlin's story, though I do still listen to his older podcasts and enjoy the debates. I don't personally care for his interview style--I feel that he says a lot in his silence (if that makes sense), and he makes subtle statements that I feel undermine a person's faith. It sounds to me like he lost his faith and wants others to 'wake up' and do the same, and he doesn't really hear what the interviewee has to say, which is a shame.
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I have tattoos, long hair , piercings and I love heavy metal. I've always felt very welcome in the church even though I don't look like everyone else.
If we agreed on everything the internet would be a very boring place.
Indeed! No tattoos here, but I rock out to Led Zeppelin on a regular basis--even while taking the kids to school. That's just the kind of mom I am, and my Mormon girlfriends still love me.
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Thanks, friends! This is very reassuring. I don't want to sound like a rebel, because that's not who I am. The LDS outlook on life is very much in line with how I live my life, making it a good fit. I just want to be able to speak my mind occasionally and not be seen as a threat or a nay-sayer.
LiterateParakeet, I LOVE Terryl and Fiona Givens. I also find myself moved to tears by the clarity and honesty that I hear when I listen to Gordon B. Hinckley. So many sources of LDS wisdom out there!
As far as Joanna Brooks, she is a younger female voice in the church that resonates with me. I listened to an interview with her this morning (on Mormon Matters, and yes, I know about Dehlin...) and she just makes so much sense to me. She promotes more of an allowance for those who question but don't speak up and then quietly leave the church. She is an active member who wants to see more room for imperfection and for more LDS books written by people who have struggled with doctrine yet still practice their faith. So, she's not totally orthodox in the sense that she repeats church teachings, but she applies church teachings to every day, imperfect life. She also states that the church, in shying away from healthy debate, does a disservice to those who may be thinking of joining. It is unfortunate that the only (and I mean ONLY) books I can find at any national bookstore like Barnes & Noble that are remotely related to the LDS church are usually either by Krakauer or some escape-from-polygamy tell-all that just reinforces that old stereotype. Grrr. Brooks is right in that there should be more literature (not just scholarly), but mom-to-mom books, parenting books, teen nonfiction, etc--just the way we see those things in the mainstream Christian literary world. Anyway, I've rambled...
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Not sure what that is a list of, but it is certainly not a list of "hard questions".
Well, I assumed they were hard questions because no one seems to want to address them. They're also hard to ask without feeling like I'm offending someone--so, I refer to them as "hard questions." My designation, really.
And like you, Vort, I have also been avoiding anti-Mormon stuff, which is why I'd rather come here to ask than run a Google search. I avoid any non-LDS affiliated Mormon forums or sites because it's crazy conspiracy theory stuff. There is so much junk out there, and much of it is puffed up rhetoric just trying to prove the church "wrong." Meanwhile, LDS folk are the ones living the most authentic Christianity that I have ever seen. Which is why I'm here in the first place. I guess I'm just trying to see where I can fit.
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I respectfully disagree. Anti-LDS people DO lie and cause trouble but that doesn't mean you should equate "honest questions and critique" with "you are just being anti-lds"
The reason questions don't bother me is I'm confident that church is true and can rebuke all of them.
MormonGator--thanks for rebutting the issues I've been wondering about! I don't actually take stock in things like the Salamander letter, but I want to be able to ask without feeling like I'm offending. And that is the feeling I get when I ask ward members about uncomfortable issues from the past--I am not anti-Mormon in the least (I get heated when I hear anti-Mormon rhetoric). But I want to be able to explore those issues and not dismiss them outright. I'm someone who needs to put things on the table, dissect them, and understand them. I don't want to feel that asking about sticky issues is offensive.
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There's nothing factual about those questions being discouraged. I've never felt that in the Church. What I do notice is that not many people in the wards I've been to like talking about gospel principles through intellectual study.
Interesting. It's good to ask people who are members of the church rather than trying to get a sense of things from podcasts and news articles. Thanks for weighing in, anatess, that is really helpful. I do want to fit in, and I don't want to be a pain in the butt person who wants to explore my faith via intellectual study. I just don't know that people in my ward do that sort of thing. It helps to know that there aren't too many in your ward who talk about the gospel in a scholarship sense. I get that same feeling at the ward I've been attending. Okay, I'll definitely chew on this.
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There is testimony meeting every first Sunday of the month where people are encouraged to share their own perspectives and personal experiences in the application of gospel truths. There is also Visiting Teaching and Home Teaching and Family Home Evening where these types of discussions occur. And then there are all the BYU schools and all the vast intellectual material that comes out of there. And then there is fairmormon.org and lds.net and all the other discussion groups available for those who want to discuss more of the stuff. And there are books galore on the LDS Church including history and all that stuff.
Great point, anatess. There is a lot of new Mormon scholarship coming out, though mostly authored by authorities of the church. I guess what I'm really asking is if there is room for questioning. I feel that it wouldn't be very easy to have a faith crisis while Mormon. I tend to question a lot, and I'm feeling that there may not be a place for someone like me in the cultural fabric of the church. And it's not that I'm a rabble rouser--it's just that I think a lot, and I question a lot, and I want to know if there would be somewhere I could go to ask the hard questions, like questioning surrounding the Kinderhook plates, the Salamander letter, Book of Abraham--the list goes on. I just want to feel that there is a strong foundation to the feelings I have regarding the Book of Mormon, or if I would be censured (not censored) for asking.
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MormonGator, exactly! One of the things that drew me to this church was that I could so relate to Joseph Smith. I read his story and thought, "That is exactly where I am! Which is the true church? Where do I go?" So the fact that those questions seem to be discouraged is someone concerning to a newcomer like me.
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