Average Joe

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Everything posted by Average Joe

  1. @ Brigham Young: Changed the endowment ceremony to add a Lecture at the Veil concerning Adam/God (source: Lecture at the Veil) As I said, Orson Pratt was the only apostle that didn't give at least tacit support to Adam/God and Brigham had no problems calling him out for it I have read talks of many apostles and leading Mormons of the day in favor of Adam/God, So yes, Brigham carried his day. @ John W. Taylor: Thank you for your well considered rephrasing of what I said :) @ John P. Lee & Paul H. Dunn John P. Lee (source: http://gapages.com/leegp1.htm) Paul H. Dunn (source: http://www.gapages.com/dunnph1.htm) Is there something else you'd like to say right about now? @ your closing observation: You don't know me from Adam, so I'll lust let you know, I'm doing just fine, thank you very much :)
  2. Some LDS seem to see General Authorities as infallible rather then men ordained of God. Yes, they are the Lord's anointed but they retain human frailties. A brief look at Church history supplies ample evidence of this. What happened to the 3 witnesses of the Book of Mormon?. Cowdery, Whitmer and Harris were all excommunicated What happened to the 3 of the members of the 8 witnesses of the Book of Mormon? Jacob Whitmer – excommunicated John Whitmer – excommunicated Hiram Page – excommunicated Have any other General Authorities been Excommunicated? Apostles in the Quorum of the Twelve Thomas B. Marsh (1835-1839) - excommunicated Orson Hyde (1835-1839; 1839-1878) was removed from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles by vote of the church between May 4 and June 27, 1839. However, Hyde retained his apostleship during this time. William E. McLellin (1835-1838) - excommunicated Luke S. Johnson (1835-1838) - excommunicated William Smith (1835-1839; 1839-1845) - excommunicated Orson Pratt (1835-1842; 1843-1881) - excommunicated John F. Boynton (1835-1837) - excommunicated Lyman E. Johnson (1835-1838) - excommunicated John E. Page (1838-1846) - excommunicated Lyman Wight (1841-1848) - excommunicated Amasa M. Lyman (1842-1843; 1844-1867) - excommunicated Albert Carrington (1870-1885) - excommunicated Moses Thatcher (1879-1896) - dropped from the Quorum of the Twelve John W. Taylor (1884-1905) - excommunicated Matthias F. Cowley (1897-1905) - excommunicated Richard R. Lyman (1918-1943) - excommunicated Two examples from the First Quorum of the Seventy George Patrick Lee was a member of the church's First Quorum of Seventy from 1975 to 1989, when he was excommunicated from the church. Paul H Dunn - was a member of the church's First Quorum of Seventy. It is clear that Dunn was not excommunicated from the church, though it is not known whether or not he was placed under some other form of church discipline, such as disfellowshipment or probation. So what to make of all this? "A living prophet is more important than a dead one." John W. Taylor (apostle from 1884-1905) was excommunicated because of Polygamy expressing the viewpoint that his father, the prophet John Taylor who prophesied plural marriage would not end and John W. Taylor further expressed that Wilford Woodruff's move to end polygamy was politically motivated. Right or wrong, John W. Taylor was removed. "Follow the prophet" is a phrase that comes to mind. Let's ask this question, when Brigham Young put forth the Adam God theology most of the Quorum of the 12 tactility, if not outright, gave their support - except Orson Pratt. Was Mormonism, according to Pratt’s argument, to become a religion primarily bound to scripture or would it continue to find its fundamental strength in the living oracles who led the church, the position espoused by Brigham Young? Brigham Young "won" in his day but after his death the Church swiftly reversed direction. So who was really right, Orson or Brigham? This is a conundrum for the Church. Do I sustain my church leaders, yes I do. However, I don't believe in infallibility. Let the stoning begin.
  3. lol, not so much in my Ward - we're not the sharpest knives in the drawer if you know what I mean but intellectualism (along with most other kinds of isms) is frowned on by many of the of the Pharisees here!
  4. Sorry your taking this so personally (at least that's how it seems from what I'm reading - words are subjective). This is the web, not the real world. If my comments have offended, I apologize. That's not a hard thing to do. If you don't think my personal righteousness is good enough, that's fine, God will judge. If my comments/opinions are at variance with yours, that's life. I'm done with this thread. I do sincerely hope you have a nice day :)
  5. Again, my ignored initial statement said, "I don't know if he has a temple recommend or has been or is under church discipline..."
  6. Stunt? "Should the Lord decide at this time to cleanse the Church-and the need for that cleansing seems to be increasing-a famine in this land of one year's duration could wipe out a large percentage of slothful members, including some ward and stake officers. Yet we cannot say we have not been warned." - Ezra Taft Benson, Apr 1965 (emphasis mine). Guess Pres. Benson wasn't talking about the Lord's anointed either - but he did include "some ward and stake officers.' And I have no problem seconding that notion. :)
  7. First, I've never been a hero. Second, while his abortion vote got this post rolling, Mr. Reid has more than this vote on his dance card. Third - and the point EVERYONE is ignoring in their breathless anxiousness to comment on "cleansing the inner vessel" - are my exact words: "I don't know if he has a temple recommend or has been or is under church discipline...I hope that "political stature" doesn't qualify as a "pass." If it does, then its time for the church to have a cleansing of the inner vessel." ​I am not going to apologize for saying the church needs cleansing IF people (and not just Mr. Reid) are given a pass because of wealth, power or "fame" that a poor, just getting by, unremarkable member would not get. I feel like putting up a poll here to ask if everyone considers themselves a Pharisee or a Sadducee but then someone would start crying because Essences wasn't an option too,
  8. and of course if some of his dealings are illegal and/or unethical and a matter of public record and his bishop and/or stake president decide not to talk to him about it because he's (currently) the senate minority then thats fine and dandy with you. OK, have a nice day :)
  9. my original quote said exactly that - "I don't know if he has a temple recommend or has been or is under church discipline...I hope that "political stature" doesn't qualify as a "pass." Please don't pillory me with my own words because I included - "I hope that "political stature" doesn't qualify as a "pass." If it does, then its time for the church to have a cleansing of the inner vessel." The term "if it does" is a conditional phrase. But be that as it may, Better men then I have called for a cleansing: "I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath [sic] my bowie knife, and conquer or die! [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration] Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet! [Voices, generally, 'go it, go it.'] If you say it is right, raise your hands! [All hands up.] Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work!" - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:83 "Should the Lord decide at this time to cleanse the Church-and the need for that cleansing seems to be increasing-a famine in this land of one year's duration could wipe out a large percentage of slothful members, including some ward and stake officers. Yet we cannot say we have not been warned." - Ezra Taft Benson, Apr 1965 (emphasis mine). So whether or not you approve of me or anyone else calling for a cleansing, you best get ready because it is coming: Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord. And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. (D&C 112:24-26, emphasis mine)
  10. perhaps not but there is a temple recommend question concerning honesty in your dealings with your fellow men which his actions are hard to reconcile with.
  11. That would [likely] be Julie Rowe's website comment - if said comment was actually made.
  12. Which, Reid being under church disciplinary action or Reid getting a pass because of his "political stature"?
  13. I've read it some of the articles which only named Julie Rowe (author of A Greater Tomorrow) and purported comments on her site which I didn't investigate. The mean gist about Mormons is that they are prepped for disaster. The articles later name protestant religious leaders as those who wrote books prompting the blood moon = the apocalypse concept. "Surely the Lord will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret to his servants the prophets." Amos 3:7
  14. No surprise in his actions I am surprised that he is still considered a member of the church. I don't know if he has a temple recommend or has been or is under church discipline...I hope that "political stature" doesn't qualify as a "pass." If it does, then its time for the church to have a cleansing of the inner vessel.
  15. “War is the continuation of policy (politics) by other means.” – Carl von Clausewitz "Religion is the continuation of policy (politics) by other means.” - Me
  16. My comment was directed to the picture in the opening comment, as for human head collecting compared to LARPing, I'd say if your LARPing and making your own costumes and equipment...then a lot of the "gravitas" in human head collecting would come from whether you were shrinking them yourself or simply freezing them for lack of a better skill set
  17. lol, I definitively answered your question about the names of the 4 spies in Alma chapter two. I told you it was meant as a numeric place holder in a pattern - or to be more precise, a numeric place holder in pattern within a pattern (Its spiritually inspired genius).The Book of Mormon is true, and truly awesome. :)
  18. I like Utah Mormons - as long as they stay in Utah! We do things a little differently here in the deep south And I ain't talking Dixie Utah!
  19. The remainder of the quorum of the 12 have been carrying a heavier load due to issues of health and death of their brethren
  20. One of the most important factors in Stake and Ward division is active Melchizedek priesthood holders so...you need to factor that in to your theory.
  21. This will be a deeply poignant General Conference. My prayers are with the brethren and their families.
  22. lol, I've been trying to help grow my ward enough to split for years! Some folks have all the luck!