Average Joe

Joseph Smith stated: "whatever principle of intelligence we attain in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection, And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." (Doctrine and Covenants 130:18-19). Joseph also stated: “It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave." Chapter 47: Exaltation", Gospel Principles, pp. 275–80. To which I'll add Brother Brigham to the mix [although many discount his pronouncements as heretical]: "Some men seem as if they could learn so much and no more. They appear to be bounded in their capacity for acquiring knowledge, as Brother Orson Pratt, has in theory, bounded the capacity of God. According to his theory, God can progress no further in knowledge and power; but the God that I serve is progressing eternally, and so are his children: they will increase to all eternity, if they are faithful." Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 11:286 These 3 statement seem to suggest there's something to eternal progression in the eternities - progression beyond using the earth and our white stones as a Urim and Thummim.

I agree totally with this. As I commented to SpiritDragon elsewhere in this thread: "Yes,Heavenly Father is the most high to us, but as man now is, God once was. As God now is man may become. So, God, having been mortal had a Heavenly Father who was [is] the most high to him." Then lets consider other examples of heavenly hierarchy for you: And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. (Mark 10: 35-40) and: “Behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth” (Doctrine and Covenants 29:26). The Lord promised Adam great blessings: “I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever” (Doctrine and Covenants 107:55). “There has been a chain of authority and power from Adam down to the present time. The Priesthood was first given to Adam; he obtained the First Presidency, and held the keys of it from generation to generation. He obtained it in the Creation, before the world was formed, as in Genesis 1:26, 27, 28. He had dominion given him over every living creature. He is Michael the Archangel, spoken of in the Scriptures. Then to Noah, who is [the angel] Gabriel; he stands next in authority to Adam in the Priesthood; he was called of God to this office, and was the father of all living in his day, and to him was given the dominion. These men held keys first on earth, and then in heaven. “The Priesthood is an everlasting principle, and existed with God from eternity, and will to eternity, without beginning of days or end of years [see Joseph Smith Translation, Hebrews 7:3]. The keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent. When they are revealed from heaven, it is by Adam’s authority." The Everlasting Priesthood,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, (2007),101–13 So, by these few examples, we see that hierarchy and authority exists in resurrected beings.

True, he outgrew the need, however it was necessary in the beginning of his translations was it not? Therefore, it is also true that his seership was also through the use of the stone. :) The seer stone and Urim and Thummim had the power bound/placed/put within them to be used in much the same sense as the Liahona - it required faith and works as Oliver Cowdery found out.

Interesting take. As for the United Order, yes all things were to be in common but it was through the direction of the priesthood, and priesthood, although all may share "equally" according to need, is still a hierarchy of authority. Now the scriptures tell us a couple of things worth considering here: Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created. (D&C 29:34) And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. (Hebrews 7:7) With those two things in mind lets consider the teachings of Joseph Smith: "I once asked a learned Jew, 'If the Hebrew language compels us to render all words ending in heim in the plural, why not render the first Eloheim plural?' He replied, 'That is the rule with few exceptions; but in this case it would ruin the Bible.' He acknowledged I was right.... In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through -- 'Gods'. The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take that view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods." Joseph Smith, History of the Church 6:474-476 Revelation often results after wrestling with ideas, and Joseph’s struggle with the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1 seems to have yielded six concepts, which he expressed either in the King Follett Discourse or in a parallel discourse he gave on June 16, 1844. The six concepts are: 1. The creation was effected, not “out of nothing” but from preexisting matter. 2. In the very beginning, there was a plurality of Gods. 3. Among this plurality, there was a head God (or there were head Gods). 4. These Gods met in a grand council. 5. These Gods in council appointed one God over us. 6. The idea of a plurality of Gods, which is most easily seen “at the beginning,” is found throughout the Bible. This shows hierarchy in Godhood wherein the greater [the heads of the Gods] bless [appointed] the lesser God over us.

as being bound up in or operative through [at least in part] seer stones and Urim and Thummims of ancient Israel, Ancient Americas, and those that Joseph used. .

Certainly glory/intelligence is a state. This answer pretty much aligns with a response I gave to Spiritdragon in this thread. I do find it interesting that omnipotence is dependent on intelligence which is bound in the earth and a stone, Even as seership is bound in stones...which perhaps strays in a different direction... oh, and thanks for the verbose response

This is certainly true. Thank you. :)

We have only been told the end goal of this mortality. We know of the terrestrial, and telestial kingdoms but we know almost nothing about them except who will consigned to them and minister to them. We know there there are two lower levels to the celestial kingdom but don't know who will be consigned to them or what they will be like. :)

Yes there are - In my Father's house there are many mansions :)

Thanks for the input :) Your stating that this revelation foreshadowed the revelation on 3 levels to the celestial kingdom as noted in my intro. This may be true. I'm more inclined to believe your example of other celestialized worlds being part of the higher/highest kingdoms Yes,Heavenly Father is the most high to us, but as man now is, God once was. As God now is man may become. So, God, having been mortal had a Heavenly Father who was [is] the most high to him. What your truly talking about is levels: a God, his Christ, his Holy Ghost and his Adam etc... and layers: a God who has yet to create a world, a God who has created a world, a God who has created worlds, and a God whose heirs have created worlds, etc... In this sense their are Kingdoms of glory above the Father, even as the Father will always be above the Heir's kingdom. All these things occur within the celestial kingdom. :)

The question was stated the way it was to provoke thoughtful response. I can accept your use of highest instead of higher however you failed to explain how higher or highest relates to the word Kingdoms in this context since those receiving the white stone are already in the highest level of the celestial kingdom. Any thoughts on this? :)

"No" is such a fascinatingly concise answer, could I trouble you to express a reason or two why? :)

I just find it interesting that on the LDS forum this topic would have 215 replies and 9043 views...and counting. At least now we know what really interests us.

Rain, lotsa rain

Given on April 2nd 1843: The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim. This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s. (D&C 130:8-9) Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known; And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word. (D&C 130:10-11) So those who receive a Celestial Glory will know things of inferior kingdoms by the Urim and Thummim of the earth and they will know things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms by the Urim and Thummim of their white stones. Now some may say this means the knowledge of the white stone applies to the lower two orders of the celestial kingdoms concerning the higher orders...perhaps...but the revelation pertaining to the there being two lower orders of the celestial kingdom occurred a month later on May 16th and 17th, 1843. So, are there higher orders of kingdoms then the celestial?

Children will now have “Parent 1” and “Parent 2” instead of a mommy and a daddy, according to Tennessee’s Administrative Office of the Courts. Shortly after the Supreme Court redefined marriage, the state’s Office of the Courts revised its documents. A spokesperson for the courts confirmed to me that the words “Mother” and “Father” had been replaced by the terms “Parent 1” and “Parent 2.” (Source article)

that's why we have repentance!

Have you tried the laying on of hands? A couple jabs with your left fist followed by a quick right with your other fist? :)

No!!! No! No! No! No! No! The sisters run WC's (or else!). The last person awake HC is in charge!

Not in our stake

In church disciplinary actions half the HC will represent the interests of the member facing disciplinary action and the other half will represent the church's interests. around here [sC] half the HC are on the MP committee under the 1st councilor in the stake pres. and the other half are on the AP committee under the 2nd councilor in the stake pres. HC's are assigned to wards and will transact stake business in their assigned wards HC's may be assigned to train in assigned wards, at stake HC meetings,Stake priesthood meetings etc... HC's may be assigned to speak in wards. HC's are assigned to the auxiliary organizations: SA, YSA, Missionary, Emergency Prep, Temple, YM, YW, Primary, RS, etc... HC's may be used to carry requests between bishops and the stake presidency for positions the stake has responsibility for within a ward HC's may be assigned to extend calling for the stake presidency for positions the stake has responsibility for within a ward HC's may be assigned to set apart those called for positions the stake has responsibility for within a ward HC's may be assigned to assist with ordaining brethren to the MP HC's may be asked to stay awake during HC meetings

Since the entire Bill of Rights has been under attack - or gutted by this administration...

I'm almost there...think maybe you could spot me $20 until next payday? I promise to pay tithing on it - honest!

Create Account Have we distanced ourselves from Brigham Young? Yes.

As President Clinton once infamously stated, doesn't that depend on "what the meaning of 'is' is"?