laronius
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Posts posted by laronius
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I second what @Maverick said. I think part of the atonement required Jesus to endure the suffering in part without any external support. That's why he could make the claim "I have tread the winepress alone." Some general authorities have expressed similar opinions.
I have always liked this explanation by Jeffrey R Holland: "Now I speak very carefully, even reverently, of what may have been the most difficult moment in all of this solitary journey to Atonement. I speak of those final moments for which Jesus must have been prepared intellectually and physically but which He may not have fully anticipated emotionally and spiritually—that concluding descent into the paralyzing despair of divine withdrawal when He cries in ultimate loneliness, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” 16 Matthew 27:46 emphasis added.]
The loss of mortal support He had anticipated, but apparently He had not comprehended this. Had He not said to His disciples, “Behold, the hour … is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me” and “The Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him”? 17 John 16:32 8:29
With all the conviction of my soul I testify that He did please His Father perfectly and that a perfect Father did not forsake His Son in that hour. Indeed, it is my personal belief that in all of Christ’s mortal ministry the Father may never have been closer to His Son than in these agonizing final moments of suffering. Nevertheless, that the supreme sacrifice of His Son might be as complete as it was voluntary and solitary, the Father briefly withdrew from Jesus the comfort of His Spirit, the support of His personal presence. It was required, indeed it was central to the significance of the Atonement, that this perfect Son who had never spoken ill nor done wrong nor touched an unclean thing had to know how the rest of humankind—us, all of us—would feel when we did commit such sins. For His Atonement to be infinite and eternal, He had to feel what it was like to die not only physically but spiritually, to sense what it was like to have the divine Spirit withdraw, leaving one feeling totally, abjectly, hopelessly alone."
- Maverick and askandanswer
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10 hours ago, ZealoulyStriving said:
We, the membership, only receive what we prepare ourselves to receive. If there is a lack of "many great and important things" it's because we haven't responded adequately to what we have already been given. Remember the Liahona wouldn't work unless they had the faith to exercise obedience.
I believe Pres. Nelson has much more he has received and wants to reveal it, but unless we get to the House of the Lord as counseled, it will continue to be withheld.
Yes and no. I agree generally that the Lord withholds things until we the members more fully utilize what we have already been given. The prophets have said as much. But when you consider the early days of the Church many revelations came during periods of apostasy or turmoil among members. So you can't just say the members are to blame. I personally believe that the fledgling Church simply needed more support to help it keep going and growing. As the Church became more stabilized the importance of a steady flow of publicly recognized revelation diminished. Looking forward, when all heck starts to break loose again it wouldn't surprise me if that flow picked back up.
- ZealoulyStriving, Maverick and zil2
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44 minutes ago, Traveler said:
I would add a little thought. It is written that a testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophesy. There are many in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that prophesy – even children. I believe that the greatest error (as prophesied by the Book of Mormon) of the Saints of these Last-days is hearing and seeing through the spirit – much more than it is being mislead by the L-rd’s anointed. Note that all that covenant and worship at the temple of G-d are anointed by the power and authority of G-d.
The Traveler
You make a great point @Traveler. I was previously in a ward that combined our youth programs with a Spanish speaking branch who met in the same building. The branch president was not very popular among some members of his branch. I don't know what exactly the issue was but it was clear there were some in other leadership positions who thought they could do a better job and even hinted at such. When the branch presidency was eventually reorganized the man called as president had very little if any leadership or administrative experience, he was very introverted and not someone the world would view as a leader at all. But he was humble. Whatever else we may have been deficient in he was definitely humble and that made him a better candidate than the others who appeared to have more leadership "ability". The Holy Ghost is the great equalizer. With the Holy Ghost leaders don't need to be perfect. And if we have the Spirit we don't need perfect leaders.
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Recently I remembered hearing a phrase repeated in a couple of Pres Nelson's general conference talks and knowing if a prophet repeats himself it's generally a point of emphasis so I decided to find them and study up on it. That phrase was "spiritual work." So I did a search looking for the two or three talks he says it and was surprised to find out that he has mentioned it in six different talks since becoming president of the church.
"...when you yoke yourself to Jesus Christ and do the spiritual work required to overcome the world, He, and He alone, does have the power to lift you above the pull of this world."
"Please do the spiritual work to increase your capacity to receive personal revelation."
"Do the spiritual work to seek miracles."
"It takes persistent, rigorous spiritual work to repent and to put off the natural man through the Atonement of Jesus Christ."
"Do the spiritual work to find out for yourselves, and please do it now. Time is running out."
"Choose to do the spiritual work required to enjoy the gift of the Holy Ghost and hear the voice of the Spirit more frequently and more clearly."
Now it may not mean anything more than just a phrase he picked up over the years to convey the general idea of living the gospel except that my search did not yield any GC talks prior to his becoming president where he used that phrase. To me it sounds like he is trying to drive home a point. While I interpret the general meaning behind the phrase to be a general rejection of the idea of what some call cheap grace and that we cannot simply be spectators in the gospel it does make me wonder if there is a particular concern he is addressing that perhaps did not always exist in the past. Any thoughts?
- mikbone and NeuroTypical
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2 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:
It is sad how any of us can work so hard our entire lives to build something then begin to make bad decisions and lose our exaltation. Likely, David will receive the Telestial Kingdom because of his adultery and murder, but nothing has been revealed on his judgment. He was not resurrected when Christ began the first resurrection of the just.
This has always been a tough one for me, not that someone would lose their exaltation because of adultery and murder. That's expected. But that someone that seemed so good could fall so far.
Did he really change that much or was the young faithful David not the "real" David?
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18 minutes ago, mikbone said:
How intelligent do you think he was?
I’m betting at least 300 IQ.
Likely learned egyptian listening to it as a baby, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic. But had gift of tongues so fluent in all languages.
At age 12 he astounded the priests at the temple. Knew that Elohim was his father. Likely recollection of the pre-existence.
I’m fairly certain he could read minds.
Under the influence of the Father he had access to all knowledge, as needed. So I think it would be hard to judge what was him personally and what was external divine influence.
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2 hours ago, CV75 said:
The faithfulness and the focus on Christ may be but an infinitesimally small particle off, but the eternal effects of lacking, or ever so slightly misdirecting, that tiny particle are infinite and eternal. This doesn't render celestial glory impossible to attain, it just explains the vast difference between it and terrestrial glory.
The more graduated spectrum between kingdoms suggests, given the language in D&C 76, that there is an increase in the faithfulness of the wicked approaching celestial glory or a decrease in the faithfulness of the righteous falling short of it. But the latter doesn't make sense given President Nelson's teachings on spiritual momentum. In other words, do the wicked progress in faith and yet remain wicked so as to never obtain righteousness? (No). Do the righteous take a misstep and revert to progressing as wicked people, having proven their inability to maintain righteousness? (No). The element missing from this model, I think, is grace. Grace saves anyone who is willing, and at the same time creates a great gulf for those who are not willing, for they simply have not received God's grace unto joy. From the parable of the mustard seed, the tiny seed is faith, it grows by grace, and finally exhibits attributes infinitely greater than a mature tree. If it did not grow by grace, it would grow but just into a tree. The difference is infinite. There are no partially celestial trees that accommodate birds but no nests, nests but no birds, fungi, moss or bugs instead of birds, etc.
I think you have presented a very feasible explanation for that gulf. When we consider that our progression continues after this life , trajectory takes on increased significance because of the increasing gap that comes with time if we choose not to wholly submit to the Lord.
I think your use of the term "willing" is equally significant and I think is an antithesis to the principle of damnation, which we could define as being unwilling. Our degree of willingness does not define our final state but it is a precursor to it. And any amount of unwillingness on our part can have an increasingly damning effect in the eternities. Kind of puts the things of this life in perspective.
I appreciate your comments @CV75.
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53 minutes ago, CV75 said:
No, I think they are as infinitely distant in glory, as the brightest light of the fullest moon is infinitely (meaning indeterminately) less than the brightness of the sun from the perspective of the ancient, unaided human eye.
So assuming the glory we inherit is relative to our faithfulness, will there be no one whose faithfulness is greater than the moon and yet less than the sun? This is what I'm trying to get at. It seems like there would be people all along the spectrum of faithfulness and yet the imagery suggests there are some pretty significant gaps in that spectrum. Perhaps that thinking is wrong and I'm totally open to other interpretations. But if it's not wrong, what is the cause for those gaps in faithfulness?
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37 minutes ago, CV75 said:
I think the the explanation behind the simple imagery is given in D&C 76: that each kingdom is distinguished by its ministers; that is, by terrestrial agents, celestial agents, or the agents of fulness, who are the Father and the Son in the Church of the Firstborn (D&C 76:86,87, 20, 56, 94).
The comparative imagery is made from the perspective of the ancients looking up from the earth. There are many stars of varying brightness, and the moon also varies according to phases and distance. A star may appear to approach the brightness of the moon, but the moon can never appear as bright as the sun because the fulness of the sun is infinitely greater than any other heavenly body. Unlike any other heavenly body, if you stare at the sun you will lose your sight, and some smattering of sight is infinitely more sight than none.
So do you feel that those towards the top of the Terrestrial Kingdom are not very far away (obedience/glory wise) from those in the lowest level of the Celestial Kingdom?
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While our beliefs entail a much broader spectrum of salvation (three kingdoms of glory with perhaps many levels of glory within them) as compared to the heaven and hell belief of most Christians, I still find it interesting that there is still such a significant chasm between the kingdoms of glory, at least as the imagery implies: sun vs moon vs stars. Their difference in glory is vast. This would seem to imply that no one is going to just barely miss one kingdom. If you are only worthy of a lesser kingdom then you are still quite a ways off from being worthy of the greater kingdom.
If that conclusion is accurate (and I'm equally interested in what you think if you feel it's not) then there must be a rather significant distinction in worthiness for there not being necessary a middle ground of worthiness, something in between the sun and moon and stars. For example, we know those in the Terrestrial Kingdom are labeled as not valiant in the testimony of Jesus whereas those in the Celestial Kingdom are. Will there not be anyone who is only sorta valiant, more than those in the Terrestrial but not up to snuff compared to the Celestial?
It's not something I had considered in the past but it does strike me that there must be a good answer out there somewhere, maybe in one of your noggins. Hopefully.
I guess what my question boils down to is if you believe there really is such a significant gap, what makes it so? Or if you think the top of one kingdom is close to the bottom of the next kingdom, why the imagery implying otherwise?
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Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
These verses have always struck a cord with me. When Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden into the lone and dreary world, they longed to return home again, back into God's presence. In the scriptures we read of this longing for a home (promised land) over and over again. But receiving a land of inheritance is only the beginning. It's not truly home until God resides there as well, in other words, Zion. We see the perfect example of this with Enoch. He helped create a true Home on earth and then were taken up into God's bosom.
It makes me wonder what that process was like. Surely they experienced many of the same struggles that modern families and communities deal with. And yet they were able to endure and eventually overcome them.
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21 hours ago, mikbone said:
Nephi’s nephew here gains a testimony, is forgiven of his sins, and learns of Jesus Christ.
I think his question, “How is it done?” is genius.
Here is my question: Don’t you think that Enos’s father Jacob had given him all this information in detail previously?
There comes a moment in our lives when we must leave the nest, fly on our own and feed ourselves.
I imagine Jacob did teach him all that but we know what Enos remembered:
"the words which I had often heard my father speak concerning eternal life, and the joy of the saints, sunk deep into my heart."
I think he came to a realization of the great chasm between his lost and fallen state and where he wanted to be. Despite his father's teaching it had to seem insurmountable.
I came across something yesterday that I think is applicable.
Ether 12:4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God...
I always figured that this word surety was just an older way of saying sure, like confident or certain. And it can be. But it also has an enhanced meaning.
Surety: a person who takes responsibility for another's performance of an undertaking, for example their appearing in court or the payment of a debt.
The gospel application here is pretty obvious. Christ has become surety for us, to pay a debt that is impossible for us to pay on our own. I think it was this feeling of impossibleness that weighed heavily upon Enos' mind, despite what he had been taught. But he learned that with God all things are possible, especially the most important stuff.
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In fast and testimony meeting today (had stake conference last week) a sister got up and related that her parents are missionaries back in Kirtland, OH. She said that during the meeting between the churches to discuss the sale of the temple a guy in attendance from the Community of Christ was seriously opposed to the sale and really wanted to raise an objection to it. But he said the Spirit restrained him so he could not object and a voice spoke to him saying "This isn't your temple or their temple. It's my temple."
Assuming that's a true account of events, it would seem that the Lord is yet mindful of these descendants of early Church members and that He cares about how they feel about these things. There may yet be a reconciliation in the future. Perhaps in Independence.
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1 hour ago, Grunt said:
It's my observation that people who don't keep their covenants often think it's "mean and drives people from the church" when you talk about keeping your covenants.
That's how it is with iniquity in general in our day. Save for a few crimes that are still socially regarded as wrong, you are not allowed to say negative things about doing wrong because that implies casting judgement on the doers of them. To do so is divisive and meanspirited, which apparently matters more than the actual doing of right or wrong. This is even starting to include being too public in one's own right actions because doing right can only be motivated by wanting to make others look bad.
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18 hours ago, Ironhold said:
Long story short, I'm tinkering with a new tabletop role-playing game system. After a number of strange twists and turns, I've come up with a character that I might or might not just do fiction of if I don't use him as a non-player character.
On one hand, the guy is a hardcore military commando who is most famous for his nigh unto superhuman ability to get inside enemy facilities and just grab at his leisure. The bad guys have a new anti-aircraft missile and you want him to gather information on it? He'll find an attack jeep armed with the missiles, the manual for the jeep, the manual for the missiles, the digital files for the above, the driver of the jeep, the mechanic who maintains the jeep, the armorer who works on the missiles, a sack of firing pins he pulled out of the rifles in their armory, a pair of hostages he discovered, a case of blueberry muffins, and a jukebox... and he'll make it all fit. High command has long since given up on trying to figure out how he does it and are just grateful he's on their side.
On the other hand, he has a degree in theology & has been authorized by Salt Lake City to serve as serviceman's group leader, which is basically "if your unit takes the field, you can act as a bishop for the members if there's no designated chaplain who is a member of the church".
How would you feel if this guy was your bishop?
Sounds kind of like Nephi retrieving the brass plates. 😃
I would have no problem with him as my bishop. The Book of Mormon is full of warrior-prophets so a warrior-bishop is not a stretch.
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We know there were A LOT of plates that Mormon and Moroni had to deal with. If those plates are still on the earth then it's likely in a very concealed place like a cave or ruins that nature has covered up. So it's very possible that the gold plates were returned to that place.
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Say what you will about Trump, he does indeed have many distasteful qualities. But at the end of the day the left promotes policies that are far more destructive of the family, society and the Constitution. Some of which are flat out EVIL. I personally cannot justify voting for that.
There are no good options right now (at least not viable ones) so we just have to decide, policy wise, what matters most. If we can't have it all, what is at the top of the list? For me there are a few deal maker/breakers, including:
They must support religious freedoms.
They must not support elective abortions.
They must be supportive of parent's rights in the education of their children.
They must be supportive of policies that strengthen and promote the nuclear family.
I'm sure there are others but these immediately come to mind. There are also many that aren't deal breakers but I still really really want.
But in each of these instances Trump is far more likely than Biden (or those who pull his strings) to support these types of policies. I didn't vote for Trump the first time because of the kind of person he is but I have to admit that he acted more Conservative than any other president since Reagan and actually fulfilled some campaign promises that others only promised.
- Grunt and Manners Matter
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It's been a while since I've read much in the Old Testament but the story of ancient Israel being lead out of captivity, rejecting God, traveling in the wilderness for many years before entering into the promised land is a theme we find all throughout the history of God working His children. It's found all through the scriptures, in the temple, our own church history, and in our individual lives to one degree or another.
We have stake conference this weekend and one of the speakers in the adult session yesterday referenced Moses ascending up into Mount Sinai to commune with God. It got me thinking about how even though they eventually got into the promised land, the real destination was always in their midst, the temple or tabernacle. And while the temple became the center of their worship they always seem to struggle with moving beyond the physical manifestations of their beliefs into the things of the Spirit. So much so that when God/Jesus in a sense came down out of the mountain to them they still wanted nothing to do with Him unless He was willing to feed them like Moses did.
There are a lot of, I don't want to call them fringe benefits of the gospel because they are important, things like community and a shelter from the world and purpose, but at the end of the day we are individually being asked to ascend up into the mountain of the Lord and commune with Him. But we are sometimes content to just enjoy the manna that membership in the Church brings and ignore or procrastinate the most central point of it all, content in the idea that the promised land is some future destination, meanwhile it's in our very midst.
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8 hours ago, mikbone said:
The 2017 eclipse went thru Adam-ondi-ahman. But the 2024 one does not. And being close to totality ain’t like horseshoes & hand grenades.
If you are not in totality you totally miss the celestial event.
For those who want to believe it's close enough but like you I would think it would be a little more exacting to be a true sign.
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5 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:
How can an eclipse be a sign of the end of times when eclipses have always occurred throughout history?
Hear ye, hear ye, in the end of days something will happen that......has happened since the earth, sun and moon were created and put in their orbits. But....you know...THIS time it's a sign....
I don't have a dog in the fight but for those who do believe it, it's not just about this eclipse but this one in conjunction with the one that happened seven years ago. For LDS believers the point where the two paths cross being in the area of Adam-ondi-Ahman gives, in their mind, additional reason to suspect something more important is happening.
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29 minutes ago, askandanswer said:
I thought that happened during covid. I know the mission I am living in shrunk to less than 20% of its normal size during covid.
Some people have indeed said that was a sign but as of yet the earthly/heavenly testimonies haven't started so that may have just been a trial run.
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This is Wilford Woodruff's account of a dream/vision he had of Joseph Smith:
“Joseph Smith continued visiting myself and others up to a certain time, and then it stopped.
The last time I saw him was in heaven. In the night vision I saw him at the door of the temple in heaven. He came and spoke to me. He said he could not stop to talk with me because he was in a hurry….
“By and by I saw the Prophet again, and I got the privilege to ask him a question. ‘Now,’ said I, ‘I want to know why you are in a hurry. I have been in a hurry all through my life; but I expected my hurry would be over when I got into the kingdom of heaven, if I ever did.’
“Joseph said: ‘I will tell you, Brother Woodruff. Every dispensation that has had the Priesthood on the earth and has gone into the celestial kingdom, has had a certain amount of work to do to prepare to go to the earth with the Savior when He goes to reign on the earth. Each dispensation has had ample time to do this work. We have not. We are the last dispensation, and so much work has to be done, and we need to be in a hurry in order to accomplish it.’ Of course, that was satisfactory to me, but it was new doctrine to me.”
I am curious to know what exactly needs to be prepared on that side of the veil before the Second Coming. There are a few things I think we learn from this experience.
1. It is definitely connected to the priesthood as it only applies to dispensations that had the priesthood.
2. The Second Coming is partially dependent upon it being completed or ready. Or at least, those who will go with him are dependent upon it.
3. The fact that this interview took place at the door of the temple in heaven would seem to imply that it is temple related.
4. It may not be just about being ready for Jesus' coming but also His reign on the earth.
We know there is a lot of work for the dead taking place but that apparently will be happening all throughout the Millennium as well so I don't know that that is the reason for the hurry on the other side. Unless that work is needing to be done for specific individuals prior to the Second Coming. Maybe it's something connected with what will transpire in Adam-ondi-Ahman.
It does make me wonder about the system of government that will exist during the Millennium. Christ will of course reign as King but how is the government setup under him? And will there be a separate religious leadership organization from the government body?
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18 minutes ago, carlimac said:
Hi again. It’s been awhile. Lots of life changes over the past few years. My questions for this forum have been piling up. I’ll start with this one-
Do you believe the coming eclipse on April 8th is a sign from the heavens that correlates with end times? Why or why not?
And if you do believe it is, and the really intense parts of the 2nd coming are on our doorstep what does your SPIRITUAL preparation consist of?A lot of people are saying it's one of the signs but I have yet to see one who can say what it means. If you don't know what a sign means then it's not much of a sign. And to say it's a sign of the last days isn't telling us anything we didn't already know.
But even if it's not a sign it doesn't mean the really intense parts of the last days are necessarily that far away. They could happen at any point. Though I'm guessing the really bad ones (meaning not just regional in scope) won't happen while we have missionaries spread out around the world. In D&C 88 it's after the missionaries are called home that the other forms of "testimony" will happen. That might be the first domino to fall.
Question concerning “Continuing Revelation”
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
"We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the Scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine." —Spencer W. Kimball, "Our Own Liahona," Ensign (November 1976), 77
This so-called Adam-God theory is false and contrary to the whole body of revealed truth. It negates the essential features of the whole plan of salvation, belittles God, makes a mockery of the atonement of his Son, and postulates the utterly absurd notion that Christ the Son had to work out an atoning sacrifice which would bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of God the Father. - Bruce R McConkie
I don't post these here to disprove the Adam-God theory. In fact I think the general concept has some merit (though the details get kind of wonky) but I think it's a bit misguided to take the stance that we must either accept what BY taught as truth or we must declare him a teacher of falsehoods. The Adam-God theory is just that, a theory, not official Church doctrine and therefore not a test for determining one's loyalty to the prophets.