laronius

I second what @Maverick said. I think part of the atonement required Jesus to endure the suffering in part without any external support. That's why he could make the claim "I have tread the winepress alone." Some general authorities have expressed similar opinions.
I have always liked this explanation by Jeffrey R Holland: "Now I speak very carefully, even reverently, of what may have been the most difficult moment in all of this solitary journey to Atonement. I speak of those final moments for which Jesus must have been prepared intellectually and physically but which He may not have fully anticipated emotionally and spiritually—that concluding descent into the paralyzing despair of divine withdrawal when He cries in ultimate loneliness, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” 16 Matthew 27:46 emphasis added.]
The loss of mortal support He had anticipated, but apparently He had not comprehended this. Had He not said to His disciples, “Behold, the hour … is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me” and “The Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him”? 17 John 16:32 8:29
With all the conviction of my soul I testify that He did please His Father perfectly and that a perfect Father did not forsake His Son in that hour. Indeed, it is my personal belief that in all of Christ’s mortal ministry the Father may never have been closer to His Son than in these agonizing final moments of suffering. Nevertheless, that the supreme sacrifice of His Son might be as complete as it was voluntary and solitary, the Father briefly withdrew from Jesus the comfort of His Spirit, the support of His personal presence. It was required, indeed it was central to the significance of the Atonement, that this perfect Son who had never spoken ill nor done wrong nor touched an unclean thing had to know how the rest of humankind—us, all of us—would feel when we did commit such sins. For His Atonement to be infinite and eternal, He had to feel what it was like to die not only physically but spiritually, to sense what it was like to have the divine Spirit withdraw, leaving one feeling totally, abjectly, hopelessly alone."

I second what @Maverick said. I think part of the atonement required Jesus to endure the suffering in part without any external support. That's why he could make the claim "I have tread the winepress alone." Some general authorities have expressed similar opinions.
I have always liked this explanation by Jeffrey R Holland: "Now I speak very carefully, even reverently, of what may have been the most difficult moment in all of this solitary journey to Atonement. I speak of those final moments for which Jesus must have been prepared intellectually and physically but which He may not have fully anticipated emotionally and spiritually—that concluding descent into the paralyzing despair of divine withdrawal when He cries in ultimate loneliness, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” 16 Matthew 27:46 emphasis added.]
The loss of mortal support He had anticipated, but apparently He had not comprehended this. Had He not said to His disciples, “Behold, the hour … is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me” and “The Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him”? 17 John 16:32 8:29
With all the conviction of my soul I testify that He did please His Father perfectly and that a perfect Father did not forsake His Son in that hour. Indeed, it is my personal belief that in all of Christ’s mortal ministry the Father may never have been closer to His Son than in these agonizing final moments of suffering. Nevertheless, that the supreme sacrifice of His Son might be as complete as it was voluntary and solitary, the Father briefly withdrew from Jesus the comfort of His Spirit, the support of His personal presence. It was required, indeed it was central to the significance of the Atonement, that this perfect Son who had never spoken ill nor done wrong nor touched an unclean thing had to know how the rest of humankind—us, all of us—would feel when we did commit such sins. For His Atonement to be infinite and eternal, He had to feel what it was like to die not only physically but spiritually, to sense what it was like to have the divine Spirit withdraw, leaving one feeling totally, abjectly, hopelessly alone."

Yes and no. I agree generally that the Lord withholds things until we the members more fully utilize what we have already been given. The prophets have said as much. But when you consider the early days of the Church many revelations came during periods of apostasy or turmoil among members. So you can't just say the members are to blame. I personally believe that the fledgling Church simply needed more support to help it keep going and growing. As the Church became more stabilized the importance of a steady flow of publicly recognized revelation diminished. Looking forward, when all heck starts to break loose again it wouldn't surprise me if that flow picked back up.

Yes and no. I agree generally that the Lord withholds things until we the members more fully utilize what we have already been given. The prophets have said as much. But when you consider the early days of the Church many revelations came during periods of apostasy or turmoil among members. So you can't just say the members are to blame. I personally believe that the fledgling Church simply needed more support to help it keep going and growing. As the Church became more stabilized the importance of a steady flow of publicly recognized revelation diminished. Looking forward, when all heck starts to break loose again it wouldn't surprise me if that flow picked back up.

Yes and no. I agree generally that the Lord withholds things until we the members more fully utilize what we have already been given. The prophets have said as much. But when you consider the early days of the Church many revelations came during periods of apostasy or turmoil among members. So you can't just say the members are to blame. I personally believe that the fledgling Church simply needed more support to help it keep going and growing. As the Church became more stabilized the importance of a steady flow of publicly recognized revelation diminished. Looking forward, when all heck starts to break loose again it wouldn't surprise me if that flow picked back up.

You make a great point @Traveler. I was previously in a ward that combined our youth programs with a Spanish speaking branch who met in the same building. The branch president was not very popular among some members of his branch. I don't know what exactly the issue was but it was clear there were some in other leadership positions who thought they could do a better job and even hinted at such. When the branch presidency was eventually reorganized the man called as president had very little if any leadership or administrative experience, he was very introverted and not someone the world would view as a leader at all. But he was humble. Whatever else we may have been deficient in he was definitely humble and that made him a better candidate than the others who appeared to have more leadership "ability". The Holy Ghost is the great equalizer. With the Holy Ghost leaders don't need to be perfect. And if we have the Spirit we don't need perfect leaders.
 

In my youth I had a personal relationship with Apostle Hugh B. Brown.  It has always been my nature to seek out and ask the most difficult questions – at least the questions I considered the most difficult to me.  Like some that have posted I was aware of leader that were obviously in error.  And so I asked Apostle Brown the question – Do we still sustain our bishop even if we know absolutely that they are wrong?  This answer has stuck with me for decades.  Brother Brown looked me squarely in the eyes and said, “You sustain your bishop, especially if he is wrong because he will need your support more then than at any other time.”
Perhaps we do not understand what it means to sustain (support).  There are two parts.  One is to be agreeable, to help, to love, to honor and respect.  The other is like unto the servants of Elijah that held up his arms when he was weak.  When our leaders (or fellow members) are weak or failing – we hold them and their mission and purpose up.  This second part is known in the covenant to not speak evil of the L-rd’s anointed.
My friends @mrmarklin , @ZealoulyStriving  , @Maverick and other Saints of G-d:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not just the L-rd’s Church.  The Church also belongs to the Saints of G-d and is why the Saints are included in the name.  I would suggest that if anyone is aware of anyone or anything that is a problem in the Church that they humbly pray to G-d concerning that problem and inquire what it is that they can do (or sacrifice) to assist G-d in his mitigation of the problem.  As I have done this myself  - almost always in such things, the first thing I am commanded to do is to repent.
 
The Traveler

"I bear witness that when Christ comes, He needs to recognize us—not as nominal members listed on a faded baptismal record but as thoroughly committed, faithfully believing, covenant-keeping disciples. This is an urgent matter for all of us, lest we ever hear with devastating regret: “I never knew you,” or, as Joseph Smith translated that phrase, “[You] never knew me.” Fortunately, we have help for this task—lots of help. We need to believe in angels and miracles and the promises of the holy priesthood. We need to believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost, the influence of good families and friends, and the power of the pure love of Christ. We need to believe in revelation and prophets, seers, and revelators and President Russell M. Nelson. We need to believe that with prayer and pleading and personal righteousness, we really can ascend to “Mount Zion, … the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.”
Brothers and sisters, as we repent of our sins and come boldly to the “throne of grace,” leaving before Him there our alms and our heartfelt supplications, we will find mercy and compassion and forgiveness at the benevolent hands of our Eternal Father and His obedient, perfectly pure Son. Then, with Job and all the refined faithful, we will behold a world “too wonderful” to understand. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen." -President Jeffery R. Holland, April 2024 General Conference.
 

I didn't say they were. But there are some things that are. Greed for example. 

I don't have any immediate thoughts, but I'll add the phrase to my General Conference bingo card.

Recently I remembered hearing a phrase repeated in a couple of Pres Nelson's general conference talks and knowing if a prophet repeats himself it's generally a point of emphasis so I decided to find them and study up on it. That phrase was "spiritual work." So I did a search looking for the two or three talks he says it and was surprised to find out that he has mentioned it in six different talks since becoming president of the church.
"...when you yoke yourself to Jesus Christ and do the spiritual work required to overcome the world, He, and He alone, does have the power to lift you above the pull of this world."
"Please do the spiritual work to increase your capacity to receive personal revelation."
"Do the spiritual work to seek miracles."
"It takes persistent, rigorous spiritual work to repent and to put off the natural man through the Atonement of Jesus Christ."
"Do the spiritual work to find out for yourselves, and please do it now. Time is running out."
"Choose to do the spiritual work required to enjoy the gift of the Holy Ghost and hear the voice of the Spirit more frequently and more clearly."
Now it may not mean anything more than just a phrase he picked up over the years to convey the general idea of living the gospel except that my search did not yield any GC talks prior to his becoming president where he used that phrase. To me it sounds like he is trying to drive home a point. While I interpret the general meaning behind the phrase to be a general rejection of the idea of what some call cheap grace and that we cannot simply be spectators in the gospel it does make me wonder if there is a particular concern he is addressing that perhaps did not always exist in the past. Any thoughts?

Recently I remembered hearing a phrase repeated in a couple of Pres Nelson's general conference talks and knowing if a prophet repeats himself it's generally a point of emphasis so I decided to find them and study up on it. That phrase was "spiritual work." So I did a search looking for the two or three talks he says it and was surprised to find out that he has mentioned it in six different talks since becoming president of the church.
"...when you yoke yourself to Jesus Christ and do the spiritual work required to overcome the world, He, and He alone, does have the power to lift you above the pull of this world."
"Please do the spiritual work to increase your capacity to receive personal revelation."
"Do the spiritual work to seek miracles."
"It takes persistent, rigorous spiritual work to repent and to put off the natural man through the Atonement of Jesus Christ."
"Do the spiritual work to find out for yourselves, and please do it now. Time is running out."
"Choose to do the spiritual work required to enjoy the gift of the Holy Ghost and hear the voice of the Spirit more frequently and more clearly."
Now it may not mean anything more than just a phrase he picked up over the years to convey the general idea of living the gospel except that my search did not yield any GC talks prior to his becoming president where he used that phrase. To me it sounds like he is trying to drive home a point. While I interpret the general meaning behind the phrase to be a general rejection of the idea of what some call cheap grace and that we cannot simply be spectators in the gospel it does make me wonder if there is a particular concern he is addressing that perhaps did not always exist in the past. Any thoughts?

Under the influence of the Father he had access to all knowledge, as needed. So I think it would be hard to judge what was him personally and what was external divine influence. 

My family is the holder of the best known copy of the Rules of the United Order.  For your fun and enjoyment I have printed out a copy (on my compurter not a photo copy) of the rules of the United Order.
 
The Traveler

While our beliefs entail a much broader spectrum of salvation (three kingdoms of glory with perhaps many levels of glory within them) as compared to the heaven and hell belief of most Christians, I still find it interesting that there is still such a significant chasm between the kingdoms of glory, at least as the imagery implies: sun vs moon vs stars. Their difference in glory is vast. This would seem to imply that no one is going to just barely miss one kingdom. If you are only worthy of a lesser kingdom then you are still quite a ways off from being worthy of the greater kingdom. 
If that conclusion is accurate (and I'm equally interested in what you think if you feel it's not) then there must be a rather significant distinction in worthiness for there not being necessary a middle ground of worthiness, something in between the sun and moon and stars. For example, we know those in the Terrestrial Kingdom are labeled as not valiant in the testimony of Jesus whereas those in the Celestial Kingdom are. Will there not be anyone who is only sorta valiant, more than those in the Terrestrial but not up to snuff compared to the Celestial?
It's not something I had considered in the past but it does strike me that there must be a good answer out there somewhere, maybe in one of your noggins. Hopefully.
I guess what my question boils down to is if you believe there really is such a significant gap, what makes it so? Or if you think the top of one kingdom is close to the bottom of the next kingdom, why the imagery implying otherwise?

So assuming the glory we inherit is relative to our faithfulness, will there be no one whose faithfulness is greater than the moon and yet less than the sun? This is what I'm trying to get at. It seems like there would be people all along the spectrum of faithfulness and yet the imagery suggests there are some pretty significant gaps in that spectrum. Perhaps that thinking is wrong and I'm totally open to other interpretations. But if it's not wrong, what is the cause for those gaps in faithfulness?

While our beliefs entail a much broader spectrum of salvation (three kingdoms of glory with perhaps many levels of glory within them) as compared to the heaven and hell belief of most Christians, I still find it interesting that there is still such a significant chasm between the kingdoms of glory, at least as the imagery implies: sun vs moon vs stars. Their difference in glory is vast. This would seem to imply that no one is going to just barely miss one kingdom. If you are only worthy of a lesser kingdom then you are still quite a ways off from being worthy of the greater kingdom. 
If that conclusion is accurate (and I'm equally interested in what you think if you feel it's not) then there must be a rather significant distinction in worthiness for there not being necessary a middle ground of worthiness, something in between the sun and moon and stars. For example, we know those in the Terrestrial Kingdom are labeled as not valiant in the testimony of Jesus whereas those in the Celestial Kingdom are. Will there not be anyone who is only sorta valiant, more than those in the Terrestrial but not up to snuff compared to the Celestial?
It's not something I had considered in the past but it does strike me that there must be a good answer out there somewhere, maybe in one of your noggins. Hopefully.
I guess what my question boils down to is if you believe there really is such a significant gap, what makes it so? Or if you think the top of one kingdom is close to the bottom of the next kingdom, why the imagery implying otherwise?

The faithfulness and the focus on Christ may be but an infinitesimally small particle off, but the eternal effects of lacking, or ever so slightly misdirecting, that tiny particle are infinite and eternal. This doesn't render celestial glory impossible to attain, it just explains the vast difference between it and terrestrial glory.
The more graduated spectrum between kingdoms suggests, given the language in D&C 76, that there is an increase in the faithfulness of the wicked approaching celestial glory or a decrease in the faithfulness of the righteous falling short of it. But the latter doesn't make sense given President Nelson's teachings on spiritual momentum. In other words, do the wicked progress in faith and yet remain wicked so as to never obtain righteousness? (No). Do the righteous take a misstep and revert to progressing as wicked people, having proven their inability to maintain righteousness? (No). The element missing from this model, I think, is grace. Grace saves anyone who is willing, and at the same time creates a great gulf for those who are not willing, for they simply have not received God's grace unto joy. From the parable of the mustard seed, the tiny seed is faith, it grows by grace, and finally exhibits attributes infinitely greater than a mature tree. If it did not grow by grace, it would grow but just into a tree. The difference is infinite. There are no partially celestial trees that accommodate birds but no nests, nests but no birds, fungi, moss or bugs instead of birds, etc.

Very little is revealed on the 2nd Heaven (Terrestrial Kingdom).  We know there are different degrees in the Telestial and Celestial Kingdoms, but nothing is revealed on the Terrestrial.  There are likely hundreds of degrees in Telestial Kingdom, but only three in the Celestial.
The Telestial Kingdom will also have the most inhabitants according to my understand of Doctrine & Covenants 76 verse 109:
"But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;"
I am grateful for all the light and knowledge revealed in Doctrine & Covenants Section 76.

I'm would think it is the same process that Abraham followed on an individual level, except with the city it was a collective decision accomplished by individual choices by each member of the society (Abraham 1:2). I also think it helps to have a leader to who lived as long as Enoch.
If we were to take the 10 commandments, and every one in a society/village decided to follow those ten commandments (with full purpose of heart and with real intent) imagine in three generations how strong that society would be/become. There would be no:
Adultery Fornication (including rape) Stealing Lying Dishonoring parents (one of the great doorways of our society toward evil) Perversions of Sex/Gender Murder War Welfare Occupation This is a society that can only be accomplished through a belief in Jesus Christ, and we would start seeing:
Stronger families Honesty in all dealings Service Industry Forgiveness Repentance  

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
These verses have always struck a cord with me. When Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden into the lone and dreary world, they longed to return home again, back into God's presence. In the scriptures we read of this longing for a home (promised land) over and over again. But receiving a land of inheritance is only the beginning. It's not truly home until God resides there as well, in other words, Zion. We see the perfect example of this with Enoch. He helped create a true Home on earth and then were taken up into God's bosom.
It makes me wonder what that process was like. Surely they experienced many of the same struggles that modern families and communities deal with. And yet they were able to endure and eventually overcome them. 

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
These verses have always struck a cord with me. When Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden into the lone and dreary world, they longed to return home again, back into God's presence. In the scriptures we read of this longing for a home (promised land) over and over again. But receiving a land of inheritance is only the beginning. It's not truly home until God resides there as well, in other words, Zion. We see the perfect example of this with Enoch. He helped create a true Home on earth and then were taken up into God's bosom.
It makes me wonder what that process was like. Surely they experienced many of the same struggles that modern families and communities deal with. And yet they were able to endure and eventually overcome them. 

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
These verses have always struck a cord with me. When Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden into the lone and dreary world, they longed to return home again, back into God's presence. In the scriptures we read of this longing for a home (promised land) over and over again. But receiving a land of inheritance is only the beginning. It's not truly home until God resides there as well, in other words, Zion. We see the perfect example of this with Enoch. He helped create a true Home on earth and then were taken up into God's bosom.
It makes me wonder what that process was like. Surely they experienced many of the same struggles that modern families and communities deal with. And yet they were able to endure and eventually overcome them. 

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
These verses have always struck a cord with me. When Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden into the lone and dreary world, they longed to return home again, back into God's presence. In the scriptures we read of this longing for a home (promised land) over and over again. But receiving a land of inheritance is only the beginning. It's not truly home until God resides there as well, in other words, Zion. We see the perfect example of this with Enoch. He helped create a true Home on earth and then were taken up into God's bosom.
It makes me wonder what that process was like. Surely they experienced many of the same struggles that modern families and communities deal with. And yet they were able to endure and eventually overcome them. 

It's been a while since I've read much in the Old Testament but the story of ancient Israel being lead out of captivity, rejecting God, traveling in the wilderness for many years before entering into the promised land is a theme we find all throughout the history of God working His children. It's found all through the scriptures, in the temple, our own church history, and in our individual lives to one degree or another. 
We have stake conference this weekend and one of the speakers in the adult session yesterday referenced Moses ascending up into Mount Sinai to commune with God. It got me thinking about how even though they eventually got into the promised land, the real destination was always in their midst, the temple or tabernacle. And while the temple became the center of their worship they always seem to struggle with moving beyond the physical manifestations of their beliefs into the things of the Spirit. So much so that when God/Jesus in a sense came down out of the mountain to them they still wanted nothing to do with Him unless He was willing to feed them like Moses did.
There are a lot of, I don't want to call them fringe benefits of the gospel because they are important, things like community and a shelter from the world and purpose, but at the end of the day we are individually being asked to ascend up into the mountain of the Lord and commune with Him. But we are sometimes content to just enjoy the manna that membership in the Church brings and ignore or procrastinate the most central point of it all, content in the idea that the promised land is some future destination, meanwhile it's in our very midst.