laronius

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  1. Like
    laronius got a reaction from LDSGator in Jesus’ IQ?   
    Under the influence of the Father he had access to all knowledge, as needed. So I think it would be hard to judge what was him personally and what was external divine influence. 
  2. Like
    laronius reacted to Traveler in The United Order   
    My family is the holder of the best known copy of the Rules of the United Order.  For your fun and enjoyment I have printed out a copy (on my compurter not a photo copy) of the rules of the United Order.
     
    The Traveler
  3. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Anddenex in No in-betweeners?   
    While our beliefs entail a much broader spectrum of salvation (three kingdoms of glory with perhaps many levels of glory within them) as compared to the heaven and hell belief of most Christians, I still find it interesting that there is still such a significant chasm between the kingdoms of glory, at least as the imagery implies: sun vs moon vs stars. Their difference in glory is vast. This would seem to imply that no one is going to just barely miss one kingdom. If you are only worthy of a lesser kingdom then you are still quite a ways off from being worthy of the greater kingdom. 
    If that conclusion is accurate (and I'm equally interested in what you think if you feel it's not) then there must be a rather significant distinction in worthiness for there not being necessary a middle ground of worthiness, something in between the sun and moon and stars. For example, we know those in the Terrestrial Kingdom are labeled as not valiant in the testimony of Jesus whereas those in the Celestial Kingdom are. Will there not be anyone who is only sorta valiant, more than those in the Terrestrial but not up to snuff compared to the Celestial?
    It's not something I had considered in the past but it does strike me that there must be a good answer out there somewhere, maybe in one of your noggins. Hopefully.
    I guess what my question boils down to is if you believe there really is such a significant gap, what makes it so? Or if you think the top of one kingdom is close to the bottom of the next kingdom, why the imagery implying otherwise?
  4. Like
    laronius got a reaction from MrShorty in No in-betweeners?   
    So assuming the glory we inherit is relative to our faithfulness, will there be no one whose faithfulness is greater than the moon and yet less than the sun? This is what I'm trying to get at. It seems like there would be people all along the spectrum of faithfulness and yet the imagery suggests there are some pretty significant gaps in that spectrum. Perhaps that thinking is wrong and I'm totally open to other interpretations. But if it's not wrong, what is the cause for those gaps in faithfulness?
  5. Like
    laronius got a reaction from MrShorty in No in-betweeners?   
    While our beliefs entail a much broader spectrum of salvation (three kingdoms of glory with perhaps many levels of glory within them) as compared to the heaven and hell belief of most Christians, I still find it interesting that there is still such a significant chasm between the kingdoms of glory, at least as the imagery implies: sun vs moon vs stars. Their difference in glory is vast. This would seem to imply that no one is going to just barely miss one kingdom. If you are only worthy of a lesser kingdom then you are still quite a ways off from being worthy of the greater kingdom. 
    If that conclusion is accurate (and I'm equally interested in what you think if you feel it's not) then there must be a rather significant distinction in worthiness for there not being necessary a middle ground of worthiness, something in between the sun and moon and stars. For example, we know those in the Terrestrial Kingdom are labeled as not valiant in the testimony of Jesus whereas those in the Celestial Kingdom are. Will there not be anyone who is only sorta valiant, more than those in the Terrestrial but not up to snuff compared to the Celestial?
    It's not something I had considered in the past but it does strike me that there must be a good answer out there somewhere, maybe in one of your noggins. Hopefully.
    I guess what my question boils down to is if you believe there really is such a significant gap, what makes it so? Or if you think the top of one kingdom is close to the bottom of the next kingdom, why the imagery implying otherwise?
  6. Like
    laronius reacted to CV75 in No in-betweeners?   
    The faithfulness and the focus on Christ may be but an infinitesimally small particle off, but the eternal effects of lacking, or ever so slightly misdirecting, that tiny particle are infinite and eternal. This doesn't render celestial glory impossible to attain, it just explains the vast difference between it and terrestrial glory.
    The more graduated spectrum between kingdoms suggests, given the language in D&C 76, that there is an increase in the faithfulness of the wicked approaching celestial glory or a decrease in the faithfulness of the righteous falling short of it. But the latter doesn't make sense given President Nelson's teachings on spiritual momentum. In other words, do the wicked progress in faith and yet remain wicked so as to never obtain righteousness? (No). Do the righteous take a misstep and revert to progressing as wicked people, having proven their inability to maintain righteousness? (No). The element missing from this model, I think, is grace. Grace saves anyone who is willing, and at the same time creates a great gulf for those who are not willing, for they simply have not received God's grace unto joy. From the parable of the mustard seed, the tiny seed is faith, it grows by grace, and finally exhibits attributes infinitely greater than a mature tree. If it did not grow by grace, it would grow but just into a tree. The difference is infinite. There are no partially celestial trees that accommodate birds but no nests, nests but no birds, fungi, moss or bugs instead of birds, etc.
  7. Like
    laronius reacted to Still_Small_Voice in No in-betweeners?   
    Very little is revealed on the 2nd Heaven (Terrestrial Kingdom).  We know there are different degrees in the Telestial and Celestial Kingdoms, but nothing is revealed on the Terrestrial.  There are likely hundreds of degrees in Telestial Kingdom, but only three in the Celestial.
    The Telestial Kingdom will also have the most inhabitants according to my understand of Doctrine & Covenants 76 verse 109:
    "But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;"
    I am grateful for all the light and knowledge revealed in Doctrine & Covenants Section 76.
  8. Like
    laronius reacted to Anddenex in Seeking Home   
    I'm would think it is the same process that Abraham followed on an individual level, except with the city it was a collective decision accomplished by individual choices by each member of the society (Abraham 1:2). I also think it helps to have a leader to who lived as long as Enoch.
    If we were to take the 10 commandments, and every one in a society/village decided to follow those ten commandments (with full purpose of heart and with real intent) imagine in three generations how strong that society would be/become. There would be no:
    Adultery Fornication (including rape) Stealing Lying Dishonoring parents (one of the great doorways of our society toward evil) Perversions of Sex/Gender Murder War Welfare Occupation This is a society that can only be accomplished through a belief in Jesus Christ, and we would start seeing:
    Stronger families Honesty in all dealings Service Industry Forgiveness Repentance  
  9. Thanks
    laronius got a reaction from Traveler in Seeking Home   
    Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
    These verses have always struck a cord with me. When Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden into the lone and dreary world, they longed to return home again, back into God's presence. In the scriptures we read of this longing for a home (promised land) over and over again. But receiving a land of inheritance is only the beginning. It's not truly home until God resides there as well, in other words, Zion. We see the perfect example of this with Enoch. He helped create a true Home on earth and then were taken up into God's bosom.
    It makes me wonder what that process was like. Surely they experienced many of the same struggles that modern families and communities deal with. And yet they were able to endure and eventually overcome them. 
  10. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Anddenex in Seeking Home   
    Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
    These verses have always struck a cord with me. When Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden into the lone and dreary world, they longed to return home again, back into God's presence. In the scriptures we read of this longing for a home (promised land) over and over again. But receiving a land of inheritance is only the beginning. It's not truly home until God resides there as well, in other words, Zion. We see the perfect example of this with Enoch. He helped create a true Home on earth and then were taken up into God's bosom.
    It makes me wonder what that process was like. Surely they experienced many of the same struggles that modern families and communities deal with. And yet they were able to endure and eventually overcome them. 
  11. Like
    laronius got a reaction from mordorbund in Seeking Home   
    Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
    These verses have always struck a cord with me. When Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden into the lone and dreary world, they longed to return home again, back into God's presence. In the scriptures we read of this longing for a home (promised land) over and over again. But receiving a land of inheritance is only the beginning. It's not truly home until God resides there as well, in other words, Zion. We see the perfect example of this with Enoch. He helped create a true Home on earth and then were taken up into God's bosom.
    It makes me wonder what that process was like. Surely they experienced many of the same struggles that modern families and communities deal with. And yet they were able to endure and eventually overcome them. 
  12. Like
    laronius got a reaction from zil2 in Seeking Home   
    Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
    These verses have always struck a cord with me. When Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden into the lone and dreary world, they longed to return home again, back into God's presence. In the scriptures we read of this longing for a home (promised land) over and over again. But receiving a land of inheritance is only the beginning. It's not truly home until God resides there as well, in other words, Zion. We see the perfect example of this with Enoch. He helped create a true Home on earth and then were taken up into God's bosom.
    It makes me wonder what that process was like. Surely they experienced many of the same struggles that modern families and communities deal with. And yet they were able to endure and eventually overcome them. 
  13. Love
    laronius got a reaction from Sail in Reflections on Numbers 1-36: Lessons on Leadership, Faith, and Obedience   
    It's been a while since I've read much in the Old Testament but the story of ancient Israel being lead out of captivity, rejecting God, traveling in the wilderness for many years before entering into the promised land is a theme we find all throughout the history of God working His children. It's found all through the scriptures, in the temple, our own church history, and in our individual lives to one degree or another. 
    We have stake conference this weekend and one of the speakers in the adult session yesterday referenced Moses ascending up into Mount Sinai to commune with God. It got me thinking about how even though they eventually got into the promised land, the real destination was always in their midst, the temple or tabernacle. And while the temple became the center of their worship they always seem to struggle with moving beyond the physical manifestations of their beliefs into the things of the Spirit. So much so that when God/Jesus in a sense came down out of the mountain to them they still wanted nothing to do with Him unless He was willing to feed them like Moses did.
    There are a lot of, I don't want to call them fringe benefits of the gospel because they are important, things like community and a shelter from the world and purpose, but at the end of the day we are individually being asked to ascend up into the mountain of the Lord and commune with Him. But we are sometimes content to just enjoy the manna that membership in the Church brings and ignore or procrastinate the most central point of it all, content in the idea that the promised land is some future destination, meanwhile it's in our very midst.
  14. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Anddenex in Enos 1:3-8   
    I imagine Jacob did teach him all that but we know what Enos remembered:
    "the words which I had often heard my father speak concerning eternal life, and the joy of the saints, sunk deep into my heart."
    I think he came to a realization of the great chasm between his lost and fallen state and where he wanted to be. Despite his father's teaching it had to seem insurmountable. 
    I came across something yesterday that I think is applicable.
    Ether 12:4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God...
    I always figured that this word surety was just an older way of saying sure, like confident or certain. And it can be. But it also has an enhanced meaning.
    Surety: a person who takes responsibility for another's performance of an undertaking, for example their appearing in court or the payment of a debt.
    The gospel application here is pretty obvious. Christ has become surety for us, to pay a debt that is impossible for us to pay on our own. I think it was this feeling of impossibleness that weighed heavily upon Enos' mind, despite what he had been taught. But he learned that with God all things are possible, especially the most important stuff.
  15. Love
    laronius got a reaction from zil2 in Enos 1:3-8   
    I imagine Jacob did teach him all that but we know what Enos remembered:
    "the words which I had often heard my father speak concerning eternal life, and the joy of the saints, sunk deep into my heart."
    I think he came to a realization of the great chasm between his lost and fallen state and where he wanted to be. Despite his father's teaching it had to seem insurmountable. 
    I came across something yesterday that I think is applicable.
    Ether 12:4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God...
    I always figured that this word surety was just an older way of saying sure, like confident or certain. And it can be. But it also has an enhanced meaning.
    Surety: a person who takes responsibility for another's performance of an undertaking, for example their appearing in court or the payment of a debt.
    The gospel application here is pretty obvious. Christ has become surety for us, to pay a debt that is impossible for us to pay on our own. I think it was this feeling of impossibleness that weighed heavily upon Enos' mind, despite what he had been taught. But he learned that with God all things are possible, especially the most important stuff.
  16. Like
    laronius reacted to zil2 in Mosiah 15:4   
    It's an interesting question.  In our day, we emphasize that each member of the Godhead is a distinct individual, but all united in purpose.  In no small part, this is to counter the false teaching of the Trinity.  The Book of Mormon people had never heard of the Trinity, but being from among the Jews, the idea of only one God would have been hyper-important to them.  This is reflected in the Book of Mormon text where, despite knowing of each member of the Godhead, they seem to go out of their way to emphasize that there is only one God.  There's no telling whether, in their heads, they thought of three distinct persons, each being God, or whether they thought of three distinct persons acting together as a "God-unit", or something else entirely.
    The fact is that They are one, so each individual is God, and any subset of Them is God, and all of Them together are God.  (And trying to figure out / remember the capitalization rules is making me wish I was born in Germany...)
  17. Like
    laronius got a reaction from MrShorty in Kirtland Temple!   
    In fast and testimony meeting today (had stake conference last week) a sister got up and related that her parents are missionaries back in Kirtland, OH. She said that during the meeting between the churches to discuss the sale of the temple a guy in attendance from the Community of Christ was seriously opposed to the sale and really wanted to raise an objection to it. But he said the Spirit restrained him so he could not object and a voice spoke to him saying "This isn't your temple or their temple. It's my temple." 
    Assuming that's a true account of events, it would seem that the Lord is yet mindful of these descendants of early Church members and that He cares about how they feel about these things. There may yet be a reconciliation in the future. Perhaps in Independence.
  18. Like
    laronius got a reaction from zil2 in Kirtland Temple!   
    In fast and testimony meeting today (had stake conference last week) a sister got up and related that her parents are missionaries back in Kirtland, OH. She said that during the meeting between the churches to discuss the sale of the temple a guy in attendance from the Community of Christ was seriously opposed to the sale and really wanted to raise an objection to it. But he said the Spirit restrained him so he could not object and a voice spoke to him saying "This isn't your temple or their temple. It's my temple." 
    Assuming that's a true account of events, it would seem that the Lord is yet mindful of these descendants of early Church members and that He cares about how they feel about these things. There may yet be a reconciliation in the future. Perhaps in Independence.
  19. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Grunt in Jesus being mean   
    That's how it is with iniquity in general in our day. Save for a few crimes that are still socially regarded as wrong, you are not allowed to say negative things about doing wrong because that implies casting judgement on the doers of them. To do so is divisive and meanspirited, which apparently matters more than the actual doing of right or wrong. This is even starting to include being too public in one's own right actions because doing right can only be motivated by wanting to make others look bad. 
  20. Like
    laronius reacted to Traveler in Likely daguerreotype (photo) of Joseph Smith discovered.   
    I am by no means an artist, but my father was, and I was schooled in the arts.  There is a lot of the artist in their art.  In essence, all art at its core (meaning and purpose) is a self-portrait.
     
    The Traveler
  21. Like
    laronius reacted to The Folk Prophet in Kirtland Temple!   
    3. It's always a bit odd to me to have a lay member state they're not sure how comfortable they are with something the church did as if the church is not led by God.
  22. Like
    laronius reacted to JohnsonJones in Are the Gold Plates in a cave somewhere?   
    I have heard about the cave with the records.  I think there could be MANY explanations.
    WE have probed the Hill Cumorah and also done sonic and radar on the hill (from what I understand) to show that there is no chamber inside the Hill.
    Now, I do NOT think we've probed DEEPER (and how deep it could be how far...who knows.  It could be a chamber under the hill...thus in the hill...by hundreds if not thousands of meters!).
    It could ALSO be various other explanations other than a physical location in the Hill Cumorah itself.
    For example, there is an idea that this Earth is where the Telestial and Celestial Kingdoms are.  It is also where the Spirit World is. 
    Some who have this idea also have a belief of something akin to multiple dimensions, where you have several different dimensions occupying the same space at the the same time.  Hence, the Spirit world is also here in the same spot, but in a different dimension (or way of existing) than ours.
    Hence, in that light, there could be a chamber in the Hill Cumorah but you will only be able to see or enter it via spiritual means until we have a higher spiritual existence as it resides in the same location, but a different existence (if that makes sense with what I said above).
    Another idea is that it is there, but just as the plates (which were in the Hill for hundreds of years and yet no one had discovered them) lay hidden, that the Lord concealed the plates from normal individuals and people...and in this same way the chambers with the other records are also concealed.
     
    There are many different ways it COULD work with a chamber or cave being within the Hill Cumorah, but if this is where the records are or how they are concealed for now is obviously not revealed to the general membership of the church. 
     
  23. Like
    laronius reacted to Vort in Are the Gold Plates in a cave somewhere?   
    I dislike certain tags that oversimplify and distort matters, such as the "Two-Cumorah Theory". Rather than state the matter as "there were two or perhaps more hills called Cumorah", which, though possible, sounds clearly like a stretch (or a tautology—"King Lear was not written by William Shakespeare, but by another playwright of the same name"), a better statement would be, "Perhaps the very name 'Hill Cumorah' simply means the hill chosen to house records." If we assume that records were always hidden somewhere on a hill so that (1) they would be marked by an easily recognizable landmark and (2) they would shed rainfall, it's easy to see that such a hill might become generally known as "Records Hill". Those concerned with record-keeping would quickly learn to look for the Records Hill in an area. If "Cumorah" denotes written records or a storage place for them, then this identification makes perfect sense.
    Of course, it's still an unsupported assertion, really just speculation. But it certainly has great explanatory value for those who believe the literal truth of the Book of Mormon and the narrative that it provides, and it doesn't immediately raise suspicion and mockery like "Two-Cumorah Theory" does.
  24. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Grunt in New POTUS this year   
    Say what you will about Trump, he does indeed have many distasteful qualities. But at the end of the day the left promotes policies that are far more destructive of the family, society and the Constitution. Some of which are flat out EVIL. I personally cannot justify voting for that.
    There are no good options right now (at least not viable ones) so we just have to decide, policy wise, what matters most. If we can't have it all, what is at the top of the list? For me there are a few deal maker/breakers, including:
    They must support religious freedoms.
    They must not support elective abortions.
    They must be supportive of parent's rights in the education of their children.
    They must be supportive of policies that strengthen and promote the nuclear family.
    I'm sure there are others but these immediately come to mind. There are also many that aren't deal breakers but I still really really want.
    But in each of these instances Trump is far more likely than Biden (or those who pull his strings) to support these types of policies. I didn't vote for Trump the first time because of the kind of person he is but I have to admit that he acted more Conservative than any other president since Reagan and actually fulfilled some campaign promises that others only promised. 
  25. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Manners Matter in New POTUS this year   
    Say what you will about Trump, he does indeed have many distasteful qualities. But at the end of the day the left promotes policies that are far more destructive of the family, society and the Constitution. Some of which are flat out EVIL. I personally cannot justify voting for that.
    There are no good options right now (at least not viable ones) so we just have to decide, policy wise, what matters most. If we can't have it all, what is at the top of the list? For me there are a few deal maker/breakers, including:
    They must support religious freedoms.
    They must not support elective abortions.
    They must be supportive of parent's rights in the education of their children.
    They must be supportive of policies that strengthen and promote the nuclear family.
    I'm sure there are others but these immediately come to mind. There are also many that aren't deal breakers but I still really really want.
    But in each of these instances Trump is far more likely than Biden (or those who pull his strings) to support these types of policies. I didn't vote for Trump the first time because of the kind of person he is but I have to admit that he acted more Conservative than any other president since Reagan and actually fulfilled some campaign promises that others only promised.