laronius

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  1. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Just_A_Guy in Was the Fruit in Lehi's Dream an Olive?   
    This is an interesting point. As Joseph Smith stated, some things that are not allowed at one point are allowed and even encouraged at other times. I think this is the case here. As Alma stated:
    12:26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.
    Eating of the tree of life at that point would have brought damnation upon Adam and Eve because they were not ready for it. It is the atonement of Jesus Christ that makes the fruit sweet. And that could not have happened unless Adam and Eve were expelled from their paradise and set the plan of salvation in motion. The tree Lehi saw was the post-fall tree of life with it's fruit ripened by the love of God.
  2. Like
    laronius got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Was the Fruit in Lehi's Dream an Olive?   
    This is an interesting point. As Joseph Smith stated, some things that are not allowed at one point are allowed and even encouraged at other times. I think this is the case here. As Alma stated:
    12:26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.
    Eating of the tree of life at that point would have brought damnation upon Adam and Eve because they were not ready for it. It is the atonement of Jesus Christ that makes the fruit sweet. And that could not have happened unless Adam and Eve were expelled from their paradise and set the plan of salvation in motion. The tree Lehi saw was the post-fall tree of life with it's fruit ripened by the love of God.
  3. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Just_A_Guy in Book of Mormon Reading Group?   
    I think this is a really important point because we aren't reading daily journal entries from Nephi but rather a retrospective narrative that tells a story with an overarching purpose. And he tells that purpose right up front.
    In 1 Nephi 1:1 he makes this seemingly contradictory statement of "having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days..." This statement is a perfect lead in to what's coming.
    Later in that same chapter he records a vision of his father where he sees in imagery the Savior and his 12 disciples during their mortal ministry. It's not elaborated greatly upon but it must have been significant because while he also sees the horrific destruction of Jerusalem, his home and people his response is one of rejoicing. Why? "Because thou art merciful, thou wilt not suffer those who come unto thee that they shall perish!"
    Then to end the chapter Nephi tells about how the life of his father is in danger for preaching to the people about the coming of the Messiah but once again we see no fretful handwringing but rather a declaration of hope and Nephi's overall intended purpose in his writing: "But behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance."
    This message of deliverance and the Deliverer can be found all throughout Nephi's writings and ultimately the entire Book of Mormon and if we miss it then we have failed to understand it's true message, regardless of what else we may have learned in the process of reading it.
  4. Like
    laronius got a reaction from SilentOne in Book of Mormon Reading Group?   
    I think this is a really important point because we aren't reading daily journal entries from Nephi but rather a retrospective narrative that tells a story with an overarching purpose. And he tells that purpose right up front.
    In 1 Nephi 1:1 he makes this seemingly contradictory statement of "having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days..." This statement is a perfect lead in to what's coming.
    Later in that same chapter he records a vision of his father where he sees in imagery the Savior and his 12 disciples during their mortal ministry. It's not elaborated greatly upon but it must have been significant because while he also sees the horrific destruction of Jerusalem, his home and people his response is one of rejoicing. Why? "Because thou art merciful, thou wilt not suffer those who come unto thee that they shall perish!"
    Then to end the chapter Nephi tells about how the life of his father is in danger for preaching to the people about the coming of the Messiah but once again we see no fretful handwringing but rather a declaration of hope and Nephi's overall intended purpose in his writing: "But behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance."
    This message of deliverance and the Deliverer can be found all throughout Nephi's writings and ultimately the entire Book of Mormon and if we miss it then we have failed to understand it's true message, regardless of what else we may have learned in the process of reading it.
  5. Like
    laronius reacted to zil2 in Book of Mormon Reading Group?   
    These would be the thread titles, if we follow my proposed plan - I can change these, but thought including the date and chapters would help - and it would let me create them ahead of time for anyone who wanted to jump ahead...
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 11 Sep - 17 Sep 2023 (1 Nephi 6 - 1 Nephi 18)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 18 Sep - 24 Sep 2023 (1 Nephi 19 - 2 Nephi 9)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 25 Sep - 01 Oct 2023 (2 Nephi 10 - 2 Nephi 28)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 02 Oct - 08 Oct 2023 (2 Nephi 29 - Omni 1)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 09 Oct - 15 Oct 2023 (Words of Mormon 1 - Mosiah 13)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 16 Oct - 22 Oct 2023 (Mosiah 14 - Mosiah 29)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 23 Oct - 29 Oct 2023 (Alma 1 - Alma 12)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 30 Oct - 05 Nov 2023 (Alma 13 - Alma 25)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 06 Nov - 12 Nov 2023 (Alma 26 - Alma 37)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 13 Nov - 19 Nov 2023 (Alma 38 - Alma 51)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 20 Nov - 26 Nov 2023 (Alma 52 - Helaman 1)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 27 Nov - 03 Dec 2023 (Helaman 2 - Helaman14)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 04 Dec - 10 Dec 2023 (Helaman 15 - 3 Nephi 13)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 11 Dec - 17 Dec 2023 (3 Nephi 14 - 4 Nephi 1)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 18 Dec - 24 Dec 2023 (Mormon 1 - Ether 7)
    Book of Mormon Reading Group: 25 Dec - 31 Dec 2023 (Ether 8 - Moroni 10)
    (Yes, I wrote a script to generate that list - hooray for LDS programmers with nothing better to do! )
  6. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Vort in Book of Mormon Reading Group?   
    I'm in. I usually like to study by topic but as long as we aren't covering a lot of material each week it should be no problem adding this to my study schedule. But don't base the schedule on me. I can jump ahead if needed. Maybe you should give everyone an idea of what you are comfortable with @Jamie123 since this will be your first time going all the way through. How long did it take you to go through the first 18 chapters?
  7. Like
    laronius got a reaction from zil2 in Book of Mormon Reading Group?   
    I'm in. I usually like to study by topic but as long as we aren't covering a lot of material each week it should be no problem adding this to my study schedule. But don't base the schedule on me. I can jump ahead if needed. Maybe you should give everyone an idea of what you are comfortable with @Jamie123 since this will be your first time going all the way through. How long did it take you to go through the first 18 chapters?
  8. Like
    laronius got a reaction from SilentOne in Judged by works and desires   
    I agree. Having a change of heart is so key to true conversion. It is essentially what Elder Maxwell was speaking of when saying that our will is really the only thing that is uniquely ours that we have to offer God.
  9. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Anddenex in Gifts of the Spirit defined   
    In A Guide to the Scriptures on the tools app it defines gifts of the Spirit as:
    Special spiritual blessings given by the Lord to worthy individuals for their own benefit and for them to use in blessing others.
    I have not read anywhere that specifically states that receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is a prerequisite to having a gift of the Spirit, though that could be the case, but I think it would be safe to say that receiving the Holy Ghost is prerequisite to the full development of those gifts. 
     
  10. Like
    laronius got a reaction from zil2 in Gender…   
    My go to response for anything that the Bible is not super clear on is:
    "You can make the Bible say anything you want. That's why there are so many different Christian churches with conflicting views. It's also why God continues to reveal his word in our day to prophets and that word clearly states that there is only male and female."
  11. Like
    laronius got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Gender…   
    My go to response for anything that the Bible is not super clear on is:
    "You can make the Bible say anything you want. That's why there are so many different Christian churches with conflicting views. It's also why God continues to reveal his word in our day to prophets and that word clearly states that there is only male and female."
  12. Like
    laronius got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Gifts of the Spirit defined   
    In Sunday School we were talking about gifts of the Spirit and the teacher had us list different gifts either found in the scriptures or from patriarchal blessings. Many of those listed were ones you expect to hear: healing, knowledge, tongues, etc. But there were other ones like kindness, cheerfulness, gratitude, etc.
    This made me start to wonder what exactly is a gift of the Spirit. We could technically call any positive attribute a gift of the Spirit because the Spirit can help us develop those attributes. But is that what the scriptures are actually talking about? So I guess my question is how do we distinguish between gifts of the Spirit and other positive qualities or should we not try to differentiate between them because they are all gifts?
  13. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Anddenex in Gifts of the Spirit defined   
    In Sunday School we were talking about gifts of the Spirit and the teacher had us list different gifts either found in the scriptures or from patriarchal blessings. Many of those listed were ones you expect to hear: healing, knowledge, tongues, etc. But there were other ones like kindness, cheerfulness, gratitude, etc.
    This made me start to wonder what exactly is a gift of the Spirit. We could technically call any positive attribute a gift of the Spirit because the Spirit can help us develop those attributes. But is that what the scriptures are actually talking about? So I guess my question is how do we distinguish between gifts of the Spirit and other positive qualities or should we not try to differentiate between them because they are all gifts?
  14. Like
    laronius reacted to prisonchaplain in Gifts of the Spirit defined   
    Perhaps the GIFTS of the Spirit are those explicitly listed in scriptures, whereas other attributes, such as kindness, might be considered FRUITS? 
  15. Like
    laronius got a reaction from zil2 in Judged by works and desires   
    I agree. Having a change of heart is so key to true conversion. It is essentially what Elder Maxwell was speaking of when saying that our will is really the only thing that is uniquely ours that we have to offer God.
  16. Like
    laronius reacted to Vort in Judged by works and desires   
    I would change the order of preference. Pay tithing because:
    1. we love the Lord and want to help our fellow man
    2. we fear fire and want to  purchase fire insurance
    3. we are guilted into it by our friends and family
    4. we want to virtue signal to the ward
    The first case is virtuous, the second is suboptimal but pragmatic, and the third is a bit shameful but, I would argue, better than disobedience. In the last case, I think paying tithing actually does no good for us at all. It's pure hypocrisy. We have our reward.
    I would also add a Step 1.5 (that is, between 1 and 2): Pay tithing because we have covenanted to do so and we want to obey our covenants. I think this is a pretty good reason, a step on the pathway to acting as we ought because we love the Lord and our fellow man.
  17. Like
    laronius reacted to zil2 in Judged by works and desires   
    I think it's important to note that this section is talking about those who died before learning of the restored gospel and having a chance to choose it in mortality.  So I think "according to the desire of their hearts" is modifying "their works" - whatever your works, if your desire (or intent) was to do good, but you failed, or didn't know better, then the desire will in essence elevate the work.  And, like @mikbone points out, the desire can negate the work, too.  God cares about our intent.  See: Moroni 7:5-10 and Alma 41:3-5.
    I also believe that our desires lead to the work we do, and can be changed over time as we choose the better desires, so that in this way, it's our true desires that are judged.  To quote Nibley (Approaching Zion, chapter 10 "Funeral Address"):
  18. Like
    laronius reacted to mikbone in Judged by works and desires   
    I think of it a bit differently.  Sometimes we do the right thing for the wrong reason, or for a lessor reason.
     
    Like paying tithing because we love the lord and want to help our fellow man. 
    or
    Paying tithing because we want to virtue signal to the ward.
    or
    Paying tithing because we are guilted into it by our friends and family
    or 
    Paying tithing because we fear fire and want to purchase fire insurance.
    D&C 58:26-29
  19. Like
    laronius got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Sacrament Prayers   
    I think we could add temple work to the process of taking upon us the name of Christ. For one thing, doing work for the dead helps us become saviors on Mount Zion. 
    But also, when you consider the covenants made during the endowment what we are really talking about are the qualities that defined Christ's mortal ministry and prepared the way for the atonement. I really like the recent changes they have made showing just how much it revolves around the Savior.
  20. Like
    laronius got a reaction from mikbone in Sacrament Prayers   
    I think we could add temple work to the process of taking upon us the name of Christ. For one thing, doing work for the dead helps us become saviors on Mount Zion. 
    But also, when you consider the covenants made during the endowment what we are really talking about are the qualities that defined Christ's mortal ministry and prepared the way for the atonement. I really like the recent changes they have made showing just how much it revolves around the Savior.
  21. Like
    laronius got a reaction from zil2 in Sacrament Prayers   
    I think we could add temple work to the process of taking upon us the name of Christ. For one thing, doing work for the dead helps us become saviors on Mount Zion. 
    But also, when you consider the covenants made during the endowment what we are really talking about are the qualities that defined Christ's mortal ministry and prepared the way for the atonement. I really like the recent changes they have made showing just how much it revolves around the Savior.
  22. Like
    laronius reacted to Traveler in Sacrament Prayers   
    Thank you for this thread and your post.  I will add a few thoughts – not to change your thoughts but only to add to them.
    Often (especially in scripture) our covenant relationship to Christ is compared to marriage.  In that comparison we become the bride and Christ is the groom.  It is the tradition of marriage that the bride takes upon them the name of the groom.  In our modern culture this submission and the bride taking the name of the groom is sometimes seen as sexist and a degradation to women.  I do not intend to debate that notion but rather point to this as a step in becoming one – or as in ancient Hebrew “ehad”.
    I believe the point is based in covenant and that the sacrament covenant follows the format of the ancient Biblical covenants – such as the Adamic, Noahic and Abrahamic covenants.  In such covenant we promise G-d to honor, revere (obedience), love and serve – all of which is done with fidelity and loyalty only to G-d and none other.  In return G-d promises to provide for our needs (including a promised land – symbolic of a place in or citizenship in the kingdom of heaven), provide protection from enemies (symbolic of help when attacked by the forces of darness and restoration of all that is lost and 3rdly a promise of seed (symbolic of both children and unending or everlasting life).
    It is also interesting to me that in many Middle Eastern cultures that for a marriage to be official or legal that the groom would provide bread and wine to the bride to be symbolic of his love and dedication to her and their covenant of marriage.  The bride would then drink of the wine and eat the bread symbolic of her acceptance of him in love and dedication to him and their covenant of marriage.
    I find this meaningful, especially having made a sacred covenant of marriage with G-d and my beloved wife in the holy temple of G-d.  Thus, connecting my new and everlasting covenant with G-d and my wife to the sacrament.  That together we renew our vows and oneness of name with our Messiah and the Father of us all.  For me the sacrament is more than just my personal commitment to G-d and includes my vows of marriage – I am grateful to take the sacrament with my wife.
     
    The Traveler
  23. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Anddenex in LDS teen sueing Fellowship of Christian Athletes over religious discrimination   
    This was the role Jesus filled. There is no way we would have been admitted into one of their "clubs" (Sadducees, Pharisees, etc) but rather went about doing good nonetheless and lead by example. Proving to others that we are true Christians will never happen via doctrinal debate. It will only happen as we take upon us His name and let His light shine through us.
  24. Like
    laronius reacted to Ironhold in Awake and do what?   
    Sometimes, just being of good character and encouraging others to be of good character is enough to rebuke a corrupt system, hence all of the screaming you'll hear when modern "progressive" types see people who live with classical mores. 
  25. Like
    laronius reacted to Carborendum in Awake and do what?   
    We can either act or be acted upon.
    When we sleep, we're being acted upon. When we wake, we act. Turn this on its head:
    If we have our own plans, goals, and actively seek to do good, we're awake. If we just go about life reacting to everything else without any plans or goals, we are asleep. In other words: If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.