CV75

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CV75 last won the day on September 26 2020

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  1. Sacrifice means different things in different kingdoms. But yes, as the Father demonstrated, the highest exalted beings will always sacrifice for their children, voluntarily and willingly, as demonstrated on His and the Son’s parts. In my mind, simply put, this kind of sacrifice is work, which is the only way progress is attained, whether temporally, spiritually or eternally. Given the principle of opposition, sacrifice is always met with glory. Sacrifice is not complete annihilation, but transformation into finer things.
  2. CV75

    Tree of Life

    Yes, these are ongoing processes and choices between light and darkness. We weekly partake of the tree of life in our sacrament, and in many other ways (prayer, study, service, the ordinances, etc.). While Adam and Eve partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we partake of it upon birth -- we simultaneously possess the light of Christ and all it leads us to, and mortality (all forms and degrees of spiritual and temporal death). Adam and Eve knew and partook of the tree of life first, so knowledge of just how good it is was not attained or appreciated until they partook of the tree of knowledge. It is interesting to me that people come into this world innocent -- they know an aspect of the fruit of the tree of life in the form of the light of Christ, first (D&C 93:38-39), then the wicked one cometh, and so on. The fulness of the tree of life only comes later, after death and resurrection, and for those on the covenant path.
  3. I think Colossians 1:23 captures this more ongoing remembrance of joys past and anticipation of future joy if the current phase is one of struggle (grounded and settled in Christ). Also, living after the manner of happiness, where "after" refers to both the realization past and current (as appli9cable) as well as the pursuit (2 Nephi 5:27, despite the opposition they faced constantly). Still, I think that joy is a very real experience and merits recognition. It is possible to find joy in small things and small moments throughout the day; perhaps this is a spiritual gift to be developed. Those who suffer from clinical depression or have a naturally pessimistic disposition or personality may be able to recognize and ac=knowledge in their experience what someone else might find joyous, though they themselves do not experience it as such. Observing children's reaction to the word around them is one way to do that, or the reaction of older children developing or demonstrating a new skill.
  4. CV75

    Tree of Life

    This is my opinion, or what I think I know 🙂 : Any symbolism aside, the tree of life sustains immortality and life in God’s presence (as before the Fall) while the tree of knowledge of good and evil sustains temporal and spiritual death (as after the Fall). The tree of life was preeminent in the Garden of Eden because those who chose the second estate chose life with God; its purpose is to extend the presence of God from the first estate into the second estate (and third, if you count the resurrection). It took some spiritual effort for Adam and Eve to choose to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. After the Fall, temporal and spiritual death became preeminent, and likewise we have to exert spiritual effort to once again access the tree of life through the covenant path.
  5. CV75

    Feedback requested to Alma 11:37

    In principle, we inherit the kingdom of heaven as we repent, which is an ongoing, perfecting process throughout our mortal life (and not fully covered in the Book of Mormon, in the post-mortal spirit world). We materially realize our inheritance in the kingdom of heaven after the resurrection, so there is time before the resurrection to be cleansed from our sins through Christ. We also have the understanding of degrees of kingdom inheritance, which also is not addressed in the Book of Mormon.
  6. He followed it until He fulfilled it and replaced it with the fulness of the Gospel.
  7. CV75

    Catholicism and the Nature of God

    HERE is here because that is all we have to go by: our experience. Existence comes from whatever we make or synthesize of our senses, physical and spiritual. Ultimately these senses have a co-eternal base. Someday we will remember or recall. The law in one sense came from His father, and in another sense from His co-eternal experience. The combining of these senses offers a fuller law, which is revealed or bestowed upon us grace for grace as Christ our Exemplar demonstrated.
  8. CV75

    Catholicism and the Nature of God

    Assuming that God the Father advanced as we hope to only means that we are all a part of something greater than our co-eternal selves can experience alone. We are each at different stages of the eternal round, yet bound together as one in love. Thus, He is the immediate Source of our progress from the point on the round described in Abraham 3:22 onward, while at the same time enjoys what He has obtained from His similar prior experience. He can be as bound by good (law) as we are, and at the same time the Source of good to us His spirit children, as we hope to one day be for ours. We see this play out to a degree in mortality as we become the source of life and law for those spirits we bring into the world, or those to whom we proselyte. Most if not all spiritual laws do not translate well into STEM, so we have to go with our spiritual senses which by our observation and experience have neurochemical parallels in our mental states. What else do we have to go by?
  9. CV75

    two questions re. the Atonement

    Th suffering you refer to yields an atonement that is "infinite for all mankind" (2 Nephi 25:16), which is numbered unto God but not (Moses 1:35-37); it restores that which cannot be restored by human action (e.g., capital punishment does not bring the murder victim back to life, Alma 34:12); by definition its Godly action is infinite and eternal (Alma 34:10; D&C 20:17 and 28); it covers the span of time before and after mortality (allows birth and resurrection, Alma 34"14). Also, by "infinite" I believe it cannot be comprehended by the finite mind until one is perfected (D&C 88:48-49). I think people need to know how to read and apply the scriptures to answer this, which entails a number of points about discipleship and what constitutes "scripture." I think the bottom line is that "infinite" is used to convey that which only God can comprehend or do.
  10. CV75

    Was Alma the Elder a prophet?

    You have gotten lots of great answers here. My understanding is that King Mosiah had the Melchizedek priesthood passed down from Lehi through Nephi. He was also a seer, which is greater than a prophet. It is interesting to me that this authority superseded that of the Mulekites (descendants of the Judah/Davidic king line), who had apostatized anyway. Likewise, Alma operated under the Melchizedek priesthood. King - (High) Priests usually had both secular and ecclesiastical jurisdiction, but we can see that King Mosiah began to change this by transferring responsibility for the sacred records and the Church administration to others, and also by establishing a more formally democratic system (“voice of the people” takes on new meaning – see Mosiah 29) of judges upon his death. I see Alma as being authorized “President” or “presiding high priest” which included organizing the church leadership succession process. So yes, he was the “prophet” of the church and also chief judge until he split the role with someone else. As already pointed out, this church was organized differently than ours to accommodate the requirements of the law of Moses, and then reorganized upon the visit of Christ to the Nephites. Mosiah simply said, “I judge them not” (26: 11- 12) when referring to matters of church membership (“iniquities”), which were formerly considered “crimes”. These things overlap in our laws as well, but we also draw a line between state and religious authority as Mosiah began to do. This may have been a function of too much work for one man (although I doubt he worked alone), but also perhaps a function of now four or more diverse groups (Mulekites, Nephites, Alma’s people, Limhi’s people – and perhaps others as prosperity drew people in to this growing city-state) having to bring the best of their traditions and social mores together into and united perspective (Mosiah 29:29).
  11. CV75

    Genesis

    The prediction contest would need to be concerning a matter that straddles both fields. But how do you measure such subjective predictions as Abraham’s happiness, peace and rest? Tithing might straddle both religion and science, and I’m sure studies have been done: https://luke1428.com/how-science-proves-that-tithing-is-linked-to-success-and-happiness/ https://www.ldsliving.com/science-links-paying-tithing-with-happiness-success-more/s/77912 …but so what? Religious people will apply the advanced secular knowledge of their time to their practice. Joseph Smith did it in receiving inspiration and revelation we call the Word of Wisdom. This is also how we have scriptures like Genesis in the first place (the technology of writing). My "resolution" is that there is no paradox to be resolved since these are two kinds of knowledge, pursued through two kinds of systems. I handle a coexisting relationship between the two systems and their processes, and can integrate the knowledge gained thereby. My priority is to build the kingdom, so for example, I use the fruits of science for righteous purposes. President Nelson tells of his revelatory experience in finding, in teh midst of a delicate surgery, a revolutionary new technique for repairing a heart valve in the nick of time to save a patient. Given that Genesis was written down 1,000 years before Aristotle was born, it is not a science book. The knowledge we gain from it comes from years of spiritual or religious tradition, system and process (including a recent, ongoing restoration of spiritual power and authority enabling more advanced spiritual knowledge), not a secular or scientific one. Whatever Aristotle wrote down has also been vastly improved over the last 2400 years and will yet be improved. But no science purports to discover and test spiritual knowledge (other than perhaps neuroscience, which is a matter of semantics).
  12. CV75

    Genesis

    It is possible to believe in anything without empirical evidence, but impossible to believe without experience (Alma 32, "awake and arouse your faculties... in a manner that ye can give place" to exercise our faculties to hear the Word). Knowledge derived from secular science and revealed religion need not agree; they are different kinds of knowledge, but many find it helpful to use them in their own sphere (and someday they may well agree). The accuracy of either depends on context,. For example, religion does not demand we accept that water freezes at 32 degrees Fahrenheit, and science dos not invite us to partake of the teachings in Alma 32.
  13. CV75

    The 4th commandment

    I would count recreation as work and labor since it is working to maintain our bodies, minds, family relationships (wholesome recreational activities), etc. The labor of a 2-week vacation is to recreate. From https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2003/06/a-rock-solid-foundation-for-marriage?lang=eng: One of President Young’s daughters recalled that he had taught: “Life is best enjoyed when time periods are evenly divided between labour, sleep and recreation. All men, women and children should labour; all must sleep; and if mental and physical balance is to be maintained, all people should spend one-third of their time in recreation which is rebuilding, voluntary activity—never idleness. ‘Eight hours work, eight hours sleep, and eight hours recreation’ was Brigham Young’s motto.” From @NeuroTypical's reference, "some Jewish leaders made many unnecessary rules about the Sabbath." I suppose the same can be said of how we treat the other six days mentioned in this commandment!
  14. This reminds me of the idea that much of what the Lord tells Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden sounds like a marriage ceremony (some scholars believe it is a temple text), so while they physically could not reproduce while still in Eden, they were still married by the Lord, and His promises and commandments would be fulfilled in the right time and place.
  15. It seems the part quoted in blue text answers your question. Having children is the highest and primary way to keep this commandment, these other ways are acceptable to the Lord by His grace given the circumstances that prevent us, and after all we can do. He will judge us, as He did Adam and Eve. The scriptures indicate that they were under no condemnation with regards to this commandment.