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Everything posted by CV75

  1. I think we grow into the working model first established as children of God as we mature and become sanctified by the Holy Ghost. I’ve heard it said that women do not have a role model as men do; they have less structure in their path to attain godliness (e.g., priesthood office, missions, etc.). But to put it in more positive terms, they have more flexibility in attaining priesthood power along the way to receiving it more fully in the temple endowment and sealing; so many things are optional: missions, education that may or may not be applied to a profession, etc., requiring constant effort to attend to the voice of the Spirit without the “training wheel” of submitting to the requirements of priesthood office. I think this dichotomy between male and female progress befits the general nature and wiring of our minds and essential gender characteristics. As men and women cultivate the covenant relationships with the Father and the Son, they become godlike and discover they are their becoming their own male and female role models, especially once they are sealed and have a vertical covenant relationship with God, a horizontal covenant relationship with each other and with ancestors, children and descendants as family ties expand. Perhaps one way to look at the births of Adam and Eve: given that Eve came from Adam’s rib, she was coexistent with him all along. To worship the Father and the Son is to worship their “Eves” who are always with Them as well, with whom they are eternally one – they cannot be the Father and the Son without Their respective “Eves” any more than Adam was never without Eve in one form or another. Eve was both in this world as a rib and yet operating in another estate until she came forth in a new form. Another indicator of flexibility.
  2. "The fundamental principles of our religion is the testimony of the apostles and prophets concerning Jesus Christ, “that he died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended up into heaven;” and all other things are only appendages to these, which pertain to our religion. "But in connection with these, we believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost, the power of faith, the enjoyment of the spiritual gifts according to the will of God, the restoration of the house of Israel, and the final triumph of truth." (Joseph Smith) In connection with the redemptive work of Christ (and He is The Covenant, in that He is the way, the truth, the light, the law and the life, etc. -- Moroni 10:33), it is very clear in this world with Whom and in Whose name we covenant in all these appendages. I think it is as simple as that.
  3. He is the Eternal Optimist, and He knew it could be done. And He was right! His eternal perspective certainly has something to with it; both they and we have a veil of forgetfulness, a dark glass to see through, and eyes that can behold the future only when (if) quickened.
  4. From Mosiah 2: 36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved— 37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples. 38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. 39 And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.
  5. Keeping the scope of money/records and economy/[practices, discourses and expressions associated with godly attributes] to the preexistence: Both the record and the godly attributes were constantly before us, but we could not access or comprehend them all without mortal and then resurrected bodies, and without creating a record in mortality to match the record constantly before us. I take the war to be about which records (Christ is the Word) and godly attributes (Th Father has them all) were of most value*, and which to access, and how to access them. * the same false notion we see about money in this world. All the records and godly attributes are of value.
  6. I think currency (in this case money, which is one possible representation of one aspect of wealth) and wealth (the abundance of all good things both material and spiritual – the Book of Mormon’s description of “prosper”) are two different things. Money is one of several means to an end, not al of which are good, and which is not necessarily wealth (there are many interim steps to and versions of that), but when it is the means and used right, wealth is the ideal destination. Currency is transactional (exchange, payment, etc.) in its operation, and wealth is relational (covenants, love, creation, service and redemption, continuation, etc.). I think Jacob 2:17-19 reflects this. I don’t think money is used in heaven, but instead records, accessed by or contained in the white stone and the Earth as a Urim and Thummim, replace it. Using the definition you provided for “economy,” I would say the divine resources are the divine attributes of God (maximal intelligence, light, knowledge, etc.). He governs Himself and invites and shows the way for others to do the same, and to do the same as one -- i.e., the first and second commandments. The material resources He acts upon, including the elements of His body, are not divine, but they can certainly be filled with His glory and treated with reverence in honor of Him. I’m also thinking that money (whether paper or coin, or any other medium of exchange) has no inherent value; the value we attach to it is but a shared belief based on the false notion that rarity is inversely proportional to significance. We made it that way in this world, and we have to make friends with it (mammon) for practical purposes. But God’s eternal ways and glory is in sharing everything He has.
  7. The second link doesn't work, but a search should provide more recent articles with even more amazing stuff! Such as when Joseph Smith translated it in relation to the rest of the Book and intertwined connections, its connection with the 116 lost manuscript pages, connections with Hebrew/Jewish practices, etc.
  8. I can understand the negative reactions to talks like these. Like the ones that use the unneeded, decorative piano as a positive object lesson, getting extensive medical treatments that insurance doesn't fully cover while people suffering from the same malady in the rest of the second and third world have to make do. It is cultural and these folks need to be forgiven for their tunnel vision. Tons of mentions that the speakers are very well off. The above snippet comes across as an endorsement of super-womanism. A the same time, we mustn't be envious or competitive in our pursuits just because someone in authority or influence is doing it. What helps me forgive these kinds of flaws is finding hints of their recognition of "personal circumstances." If you can do it and be happy, fine. If it's not for you, don't. plenty of speakers insert their faults and humanity into their talks, too, and they are sometimes criticized for that. As far as the trends in what patriarchs say, a) there is always a prayerful choice; b) it may not be fulfilled in this life ; and c) the Lord may know something we don't. And d) sometimes getting ready for "A" brings about opportunity "B" which the Holy Spirit confirms as perfectly right. Read these blessings very carefully and prayerfully. The central message as I see it (Oaks and Johnson) is "family first," whatever else the individual may pursue in life.
  9. Verse 13 might indicate that the brother of Jared knew that he was sealed up unto eternal life (exaltation), by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood (D&C 131:5–6). "And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things [knowledge being the fruit of faith, in this instance, of seeing His embodied finger] ye are redeemed from the fall [redemption with knowledge arising from this level of faith is eternal life]; therefore ye are brought back into my presence [eternal life and exaltation]; therefore I show myself unto you [His full physical presence with a description of His complete earthly mission]." The element of priesthood is represented by brother of Jared's reference to God's power.
  10. We command the elements by discovering the laws of nature and applying them. Because the physical laws of nature are sustained by God through the light of Christ, we need to be very careful about using them for good or evil. The Lord gave Adam and Eve, and by extension, us (atheists, agnostics and believers alike), dominion and discretion over the stewardship of the natural world. Exercising faith in Jesus Christ is one way of discovering these laws, perhaps in the most fundamental form but also advancing in the knowledge and details thereof. Faith in Jesus Christ can facilitate our access to mortal knowledge of physical or natural law and offer direct access to spiritual gifts, the power of the Holy Ghost, the companionship of the Holy Ghost, the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the power of the keys of the kingdom which involve organization of various kinds (e.g., gathering, covenanting and sealing on earth and in heaven) as delegated to human beings by Christ. The epitome of organization in this world is found in the temple covenants, with the promises fulfilled in the Church of the Firstborn. The sealing keys and the power to seal includes command over the elements as displayed by Enoch, Moses, Nephi of Helaman 10 and others. But it also involves other manifestations of God’s power through formally appointed means. For example, spiritual gifts and the power of the Holy Ghost are broadly granted the children of God throughout the world. Formal delegation of priesthood and keys is another matter. And someone can have their calling and election made sure by the Holy Spirit of Promise and yet lack the gift of command over the elements in any of its forms in this life. Likewise, a prophet must possess and exercise the requisite faith to exercise the sealing keys. Even Nephi (Helaman 10) and Christ (3 Nephi 17) had to pray to the Father to access and use it.
  11. Elders Fyans and Packer taught a traditional parable of the pearl and the box. My take is that parables, direct language and combinations of both, and suited for their time, serve as the box, but the pearl always remains the same. So in evaluating who correctly understands what, and given what we possess of such prophetic teachings, I think there are several intertwining principles to consider: Many are called but few are chosen; the parables use the “things of this world” and human language is of this world, and it is possible for us to get overly focused on these. The Lord teaches some truth in parables, symbolically and figuratively. The Lord teaches some truth directly, plainly and literally such as D&C 131:7-8. The Lord teaches some truth in a combination of metaphor and fact, such as John 17. Human language is often insufficient to convey spiritual truths (see 3 Nephi 17:17; Luke 18:34; John 16:17-18). Human language and parables change (imagine an early Polynesian convert understanding Elder Bednar’s parable of the pickle, or Elder Uchtdorf’s airplane analogies). Prophets are fallible and their choice of language in teaching through parables, direct language or a combination therefore may not convey the spiritual truths they wish to, to think they are (Ether 12:24). The living prophet has the keys for designing the box, and sometimes the box is simply not up to the task anymore, not because the prophet or anyone is false or too many cannot handle it, or no one has enough of the companionship of the Holy Ghost to suss the mystery, but the circumstances of human life and experience that God has allowed or encouraged to evolve have changed how we learn. Personally, if we view any prophetic teaching through the lens of John 17 as the pearl, it is easy to see that it not so strange after all. But the ways and means of teaching may be! And that is no one's fault. Holding too tightly to the things of this world is. The spiritual truths of John 17 are taught in far more successful ways than they are not. A prophet may be perfectly inspired and yet perfectly awkward in conveying it.
  12. I think God lets a lot of unimportant things go. How long did the Brother of Jared go in life incorrectly assuming that the Lord's flesh and blood form could not be seen (or whether He had such a form at all)? Only to be told to write and seal up the answer for a long-future date. Some things, correct or not, incomplete or confounded or not, simply are not impactful upon the Lord's timetable for certain things to happen in certain certain moments in certain dispensations.
  13. Hypotheses are unsatisfactory answers to important questions, but they could be the beginning. Posing a hypothesis, “If unsubstantiated x is true, then unsubstantiated y is true” is just another way of asking the question, but in a most biased manner. Without further examination and exploration in the “real world,” constructing and comparing hypotheses based on personal preference and preset conclusions is ill-informed and does not answer the question.
  14. No, I am looking for you to test your various hypotheses with documented instances and occurrences, not bias, opinion and possibilities. It might help if you list your questions with the facts you have gathered that can be used to answer them. I've asked for this before ( Posted Friday at 06:29 PM ) and you insisted a hypothesis was a "textbook example" -- which are far from the same things. If you don't understand the distinction, as indicated in the subsequent exchanges, maybe we can flesh that out, though with a little work you can get up speed on your own. Thank you.
  15. I trust your observation and conclusion. That members can't handle revelation has been repeatedly part of your hypotheses. No, they say saying other things, just as I wrote them. And you can even say they are examples that Brigham Young as president of the church did not teach false doctrine about the character of God for 25 years, or taught it correctly/completely in some ways and incompletely/incorrectly in others, for 25 years. It depends on your bias, spin, context and semantics. I choose not to employ black-and-white, dichotomous analysis to drive a predetermined conclusion. And you did use this as an example of it being "distinctly possible that the Lord would "take away light and truth from the restored Church on account of the membership no longer being able to handle many of the hard truths and deeper doctrines..." as you did here: Posted Friday at 09:45 AM
  16. Why limit the choice to 2? How about simple fallibility, misunderstanding and miscommunication, or practice with councils and group revelation and continuing revelation in council, or expediency in the Lord changing priorities and emphasis to best convey His plan of redemption?
  17. Anyone's answer to this is simply a reflection of bias since the Holy Ghost confirms or corrects bias in the hour of actual need. It does not establish a rule that God changes the marriage covenant because the saints and the world agree that it is socially unpopular or straining. Even in permitting divorce and OD1, the standard of marriage remained intact.
  18. I see these kinds of post-talk corrections as examples of inspired clarification in council, not that the members are unable or unwilling to handle a verbatim transcription.
  19. All unbaptized mortals live with the influence of the light of Christ in their lives, even it is only to remain organized as a soul until death. Some are not accountable and some reject Hos light to the degree they are able, but none can sink below the reach of His light. As the source of that light, I can see how He could descend below all things and still maintain His existence, and the lowest mortal condition is still sustained by His light. Jesus' mission was in covenant with the Godhead, so as unique and independent as His role may have been, it was still part of the larger plan, agreement and mutual trust for fulfillment. The Father and the Holy Ghost were aware of what was going on in His mission, as completely forsaken as He may have felt for the sake of descending below all things. Jesus may have felt forsaken, but I do not think He forgot or abandoned the Godhead and it that sense it remained with Him.
  20. But just about anything supports possibility. So what -- "O then, is not this real?" Bias does make an appealing possibility a working model us, but that dos not make the model reflective of what is light, good and known. "Real possibility," when it comes to answering spiritual truth, is an oxymoron. Faith in possibilities is not the same as faith in things not seen which are true.
  21. I understand you did not want to create a discussion about the content of your hypothesis; this is why I asked you for some documented examples. Then we could discussion their applicability instead, as i began to do with the examples I offered up.
  22. Sorry, you did not. You provided an acceptable hypothesis with no factual basis for a conclusion and seem to be ignoring the requirement to do so. That is up to you. There is nothing wrong with expressing a feeling, bias, belief or opinion, but that is all it is, and I take discussion to be more than just sharing and refuting these for the sake of sharing and refuting. I provided a couple of examples of well documented examples; with a bit of work you can do the same for your specific hypothesis.
  23. Which United Order was it connected with, and when? I understand there were a number of local iterations.
  24. But your proposition, "If what Brigham Young taught was true..." is still a hypothesis, and not presented an example of an documented event or a condition, as textbooks require. We need something more substantial. Jesus and Eder Oaks taught about the Lord permitting divorce without the stain of immorality as an exception to the higher law because of the hardness of our hearts ( This is an example of a higher light and truth being excepted or excused, but not taken away. You need to identify a stronger example of a time when a higher law was rescinded by the Lord because of the wickedness or lack of faith among a threshold number of saints or the membership at large. An example from the D&C is the command to build the Jackson County temple was rescinded: (see D&C 124, but also101, 103). Try to identify an example like that which reflects your concerns. What other revelation or commandment has been rescinded because the members couldn't handle it? It needs to be something more substantial than policies, procedures and practices.
  25. Since in your view it distinctly possible that the Lord would "take away light and truth from the restored Church on account of the membership no longer being able to handle many of the hard truths and deeper doctrines," please describe how you conclude this from your observations concerning changes in how revelations are communicated since the phraseology, "This saith the Lord..." was last used. This is why examples are useful; please provide at least one to expand the discussions beyond an hypothesis or assertion. This is how Alma 32 works: you cannot attain knowledge without nourishing the seed, the seed in this case being the hypothesis, with observed facts or events and doing the work to make the connections.