CV75

I already addressed all this in the post you’re responding to. Temptation is a thought but it is not a sin. Entertaining temptation is a sin in a couple of ways. You are not describing temptations but hate, lust and anger. I understood the discussion to be about judging someone according to his temptations, which is unrighteous judgement.

It seems brotherof is talking about the temptations of people with ssa, which is not a sin, and you are talking about lustful thought, which is a sin. I pointed out that Alma 12 is talkig of self-condemnatory thoughts of those who have given no place for the word of God in their hearts as the reaction to facing Him as He judges and condemns them for their words and works. I think you weren't using that scripture properly in making your point. There are much more accurate references about both sinful thoughts (some of which you listed) and temptation.
Then you take a tangent off of that and discuss whether having temptation and/or sinful thoughts means there is something wrong with a person, or that something has to be wrong with him to have them. I think the plan of happiness answers that question.

It seems to me the question of whether something is wrong with someone because he is tempted is the same as asking whether something is wrong with him because he is a fallen person, even if he resists the temptation. Doesn't the answer to that seem to be both yes, and no, depending on whether we are talking spiritual or temporal principles, and on what we are trying to accomplish? Can't either answer be used to be a both a minister and a hypocrite? Semantics.

@brotherofJared what is the overall point you are trying to make? Ii seems it has to do with the words we use to minister to and talk about the needs of God's children, particularly those targeted for, or vulnerable or prone to breaking the law of chastity, and more specifically those with ssa.

I think the same ideas promulgated by Sherem (Jacob Chapter 1), Nehor (Alma 1), Korihor (Alma 30), Gadianton (Helaman 2 & 6) and Giddianhi (3 Nephi 3) in the Book of Mormon have corresponding versions, some of them verbatim, today. The words of God in countering them is also shared in these same chapters.

I think the same ideas promulgated by Sherem (Jacob Chapter 1), Nehor (Alma 1), Korihor (Alma 30), Gadianton (Helaman 2 & 6) and Giddianhi (3 Nephi 3) in the Book of Mormon have corresponding versions, some of them verbatim, today. The words of God in countering them is also shared in these same chapters.

These three degrees in the celestial kingdom could then be: a) the angles, or the pre-mortal spirits still dwelling in the presence of their Father(s); b) the gods, or the translated beings not yet resurrected but promised exaltation, including all those living in the City of Zion; and c) exalted resurrected beings.

Which brings to mind a preceding thought that helps keep D&C 132 in context: D&C 78:7 says, “For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.” D&C 88:2 says that the “sanctified [are] them of the celestial world.” So he who receives His will (88:1) as required and performs it becomes sanctified and joins those of the celestial world.

Then D&C 121:8 and 29 introduce the condition of "valiance" as it pertains to exaltation within the celestial kingdom, as follows: “All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.” For the first time in the D&C the idea of a post-mortal exaltation is introduced in verse 8 (all the other references pertain to mortal conditions and attitudes, and D&C 76 describes the best that "not-valiance" not "valiance" brings).

D&C 132 then provides a fuller description of exaltation as the “continuation of the lives” and “eternal lives” beginning in verses 17 and 19, and in more detail in verses 24 and 55. Verses 20-25 are about the requirement to keep the law of celestial marriage in order to receive exaltation (“this glory” in verse 21), which renders verse 25 as simply describing those who are not exalted by juxtaposing “the deaths” (or non-continuation of the lives, without celestial marriage) with continuing “the lives” through eternal increase by keeping the law of celestial marriage.

This is an example of using the same principle in two spheres. Baptism represents the principle of strait gate as it pertains to the celestial kingdom; celestial marriage drills things down to represent the principle of the strait gate as it pertains to exaltation.

Just keep at it!

@CV75
@Anddenex
@Carborendum
@seashmore
@zil
@Jane_Doe
Thank you everyone! I have missed several steps in Mormon theology. Had some quite erroneous misperceptions! This is like the time I found out that Jesus was the god of the Old Testament! Thanks everyone!

Let’s see if I can explain it another way:

D&C 93:30 says, “All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.” We are taught and choose to obey truth within the sphere in which we (and the truth) are placed. The pre-mortal existence is one sphere. The mortal existence is another sphere. The post-mortal kingdoms of glory are other spheres with their bounds and conditions (D&C 88:38).

In each these spheres, or estates, or stages of existence, there are corresponding truths that we learn and choose to obey. Jesus learned and obeyed in such a way that He was the Firsrtborn in the pre-mortal life, the Only Begotten in the mortal life, the Firstfruit in the resurrection, and so on as King in the immortal kingdoms.

His being the Firstborn means He received a fulness of grace (the possession of truth) available and attainable in the pre-mortal world and was assigned to be the Only Begotten; in the flesh, He received a fulness of truth available in the mortal world and overcame sin and death and thus became the Firstfruit; in the resurrection or in ascending to the Father He received a fulness or eternal truth so as to become the King, and so on. Even Jesus needed to progress along the way.

Yes, I believe Jesus progressed rfom the beginning, without hesitation. Abraham 3:18-19 helps us see that our relative “slowness” to progress is not necessarily a negative since we all had no beginning and will have no end: “…if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal. And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.” Verse 5 gives us an idea that those who stay closer to the Father move more slowly than those who have the faith to become more independent, and so He places them in a sphere that moves things along faster until we return to His presence.

I believe Jesus received His grace from the Father, and we receive it from Jesus.

From Mosiah 3:7 we learn that Jesus knew the developmental stages of life from infancy to adulthood, so He knows what we go through. He knew temptation, so He knows what that is like for each of us. He also paid the penalty of sin (in the Garden of Gethsemane), so He know what condemnation feels like. He was separated from the presence of God (in His final moments on the cross) so He knows what spiritual death is like. “And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.” Yet he overcame these things, so we indeed can rely on Him to show us the way and help us along. But read the whole chapter! It’s good!

Yes, no matter where you are, have faith, which is what promotes hope and charity and keeps you trying. Because I cannot do it justice, here is a great resource on the subject of grace: https://www.lds.org/topics/grace?lang=eng

In the spirit of speculation: the non-exalted kingdoms are celestial beings who are not married (one for males, one for females) living "separately and singly" (D&C 132:17). These are angels. I do not know who the gods might be, unless they are those who are yet preparing to receive their exaltation (per another thread: https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/61876-celestial-kingdom-and-exaltation/#comment-916268 ):
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 268). https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

Hi Wade, also @Vort
I haven't looked at the video link, but this issue is addressed in another thread as well: https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/61917-angels-and-gods/
Based on one interpretation of D&C 132:17-19, the three degrees of the celestial kingdom could be comprised of angels, gods, and exalted gods, as follows:
The two non-exalted kingdoms are celestial beings, but the "lowest" degree (the angels) are not married; there is one place for the males, and one place for the females, living "separately and singly" as "ministering servants" (D&C 132:116-17). The next degree, for the gods (verse 19, "they shall pass by the angels, and the gods [those who are sealed and preparing to receive their exaltation], which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things"), might be those who are married and yet preparing to receive their exaltation -- see the Joseph Smith quote below:
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 268). https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

"Perfect" is a funny word. Jesus was perfect during His mortal lifetime as the scriptures explain. We can be as perfect in this life as we are expected to be given our circumstances, and Jesus commanded us to be perfect and to become perfect (as the scriptures explain). We cannot do this without Jesus no more than he could do it without the Father.
We do not know much about the details of the Father's mortal life, but He certainly is perfect now. Jesus did what He saw the Father do, but this may be in the same vein as seeing and suffering our trials and tribulations. The Father did become perfect though, and this is what Jesus did and what He enables us to do.

"Perfect" is a funny word. Jesus was perfect during His mortal lifetime as the scriptures explain. We can be as perfect in this life as we are expected to be given our circumstances, and Jesus commanded us to be perfect and to become perfect (as the scriptures explain). We cannot do this without Jesus no more than he could do it without the Father.
We do not know much about the details of the Father's mortal life, but He certainly is perfect now. Jesus did what He saw the Father do, but this may be in the same vein as seeing and suffering our trials and tribulations. The Father did become perfect though, and this is what Jesus did and what He enables us to do.

In the spirit of speculation: the non-exalted kingdoms are celestial beings who are not married (one for males, one for females) living "separately and singly" (D&C 132:17). These are angels. I do not know who the gods might be, unless they are those who are yet preparing to receive their exaltation (per another thread: https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/61876-celestial-kingdom-and-exaltation/#comment-916268 ):
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 268). https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

I think that is the way it will go, but the teaching comes from Joseph Smith sermons and GC talks. For example:
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 268). https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

I think it is more about teaching than finding fault. He mentions some keys to having the Lord respond sooner than later: pray from the heart, with real intent; have an attitude that the Lord’s will be done; feel the connection with heaven; prepare (a big one in my opinion); pray continually (keep a prayer in our heart); demonstrate a willingness to receive. Sometimes it takes us a while to get all these in line in order for the Lord to hear and respond to us. Sometimes a life-or-death stimulates that process, and sometimes the Lord won't kill us for the sake of proving  a point!
Also, these keys are not examples of the iniquity mentioned  in Mosiah 21:15, or the slowness to obey in D&C 101:7. The Lord knows what we need and when to help us cultivate the faith to not backslide in these things.

Mormon 9:3-4 says, "Then will ye longer deny the Christ, or can ye behold the Lamb of God? Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws? Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell."
I think the phrase, "ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God... than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell" can be rephrased as a corollary, "ye would be happier to dwell with the damned souls in hell than to dwell with a holy and just God."

I think that is the way it will go, but the teaching comes from Joseph Smith sermons and GC talks. For example:
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 268). https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

The three degrees are not taught in the Book of Mormon. Its fulness of the gospel refers I think to the unadulterated testimony of Jesus and His mission, and His teachings to the Nephites. The dispensation of the fulness of times will reveal a greater fulness of doctrines, which I think it different than the "Good News".

I think the same ideas promulgated by Sherem (Jacob Chapter 1), Nehor (Alma 1), Korihor (Alma 30), Gadianton (Helaman 2 & 6) and Giddianhi (3 Nephi 3) in the Book of Mormon have corresponding versions, some of them verbatim, today. The words of God in countering them is also shared in these same chapters.

I think the same ideas promulgated by Sherem (Jacob Chapter 1), Nehor (Alma 1), Korihor (Alma 30), Gadianton (Helaman 2 & 6) and Giddianhi (3 Nephi 3) in the Book of Mormon have corresponding versions, some of them verbatim, today. The words of God in countering them is also shared in these same chapters.

My wife and I were fairly recent converts when we decided to marry, and got married in the temple. I gave her this book a few months before our temple marriage in 1981, and she has cherished it (and loaned it out) ever since. I thin it depends on the member who is telling you about the temple. The temple preparation classes are supposed to be fairly through and I suppose cover the same material in Elder Packer's book.

I think the same ideas promulgated by Sherem (Jacob Chapter 1), Nehor (Alma 1), Korihor (Alma 30), Gadianton (Helaman 2 & 6) and Giddianhi (3 Nephi 3) in the Book of Mormon have corresponding versions, some of them verbatim, today. The words of God in countering them is also shared in these same chapters.

Satan's Weapons
-philosophies of men - if I can't see it, it does not exist
- self-control, sacrifice are old fashioned
- it feels so right, it can't be wrong
- 'cool ' behaviour is fun, modern, so people become habituated to profanity, taking God's name in vain
- the most important thing is success
God's weapons
Family Home Evening
Prayer
Scriptures
 

Hi -- sorry, I thought it was a common term. I only post here and another LDS board where i've seen it used.
It means "call (or cite) for reference." It is a request that appropriate references be provided to support the statements (other than opinions) someone has made. Typically satisfying the CFR involves quotes and links/sources (as I did proactively a few posts above). If someone refuses to answer the CFR without retracting the statement or clarifying that it was only an opinion, it renders the statements invalid, having been made in bad faith or ignorance, etc., and ruins the conversation.