Rob Osborn

I think in general, we speak of salvation and glories kind of haphazardly not really thinking through the nuts and bolts of the principles involved and as such can't answer the real questions where the rubber meets the road. Our go to answer is along the lines of "we aren't to judge, God will" or, "so and so said so therefore it must be settled" and then folks move on in a state of ignorance.

So, you can offer no logical explanation then why there will be wicked souls (unrighteous) saved from the eternal hell after resurrection and judgment. It's okay if you don't know, I just thought perhaps you had a logical explanation. That's all.

I was stating what our scriptures say for the type or state of person in that predicament.

I don't see it that way at all. I'm asking from a logical standpoint. I'm asking how it's possible that there are wicked souls saved into heaven. You refuse to bring logic to that premise. Im really curious how you arrive at there being wicked souls saved from eternal hell. How is it?

He received many of them. What is missing, in my opinion, is the critical true interpretation of them. In this regards, in my opinion, much of our doctrine regarding salvation will be modified to allow for truth to prevail.

The only thing I keep missing is your desire to address the points I bring up. You believe God will save the wicked, that there's a place in heaven for the unrighteous yet you can't provide any sound doctrine to back it up so you shut down. That's how I see it. Am I wrong?

See what I mean?

I don't think for a moment the Lord God has revealed through the prophets the exact design and measurements of the holy garment. I think God let's man figure it out on his own and the Lord accepts it through his tender mercies for the sake of saving souls. I think a lot of these details are like this, follow this pattern. We must remember that God's ways are not man's ways. But, through the tender mercies of the Lord, he works with us for the purpose of slowly changing our hearts and ways into becoming as he is.

It's hard to get at what you are saying because you always want to shut down and walk away from the conversation. The reason I asked about Christ not saving the wicked is critical to understanding my point. There are only righteous and wicked in the end. Christ had no power to save the wicked. Christ can only save the righteous. And what do the righteous inherit? This Earth. Now, this part about the "law of Christ" and how it ties in here. The law of Christ is the fulness of the gospel. It is the "doctrine" of Christ as found in his holy scriptures, particularly the Book of Mormon. It is only through obedience to the gospel (law of Christ) that one becomes "righteous". It is the only means possible in the end to be saved from hell. Our third article of faith reads- "3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." It might as well read- 3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the law of Christ. We know this because the law of Christ contains all the laws and ordinances of the gospel. So, what is meant by being "saved" as it states? It means to be saved from the second death- the everlasting death that comes upon the wicked who get cast out into outer darkness. Now, going back to section 88 we can better understand this section. All of the "righteous" inherit the earth as mentioned in verse 26. They inherit it because of their obedience to the gospel which is the "law of Christ". Obedience to the law of Christ is the only means possible that man can be saved by. If one thus assumes the telestial and terrestrial are eternal kingdoms- separate world's of glory after resurrection, then it creates a paradox. Why? Because they would be saved without showing obedience to the gospel (law of Christ). This runs contrary to everything the Book of Mormon teaches which is supposed to the doctrine of the law of Christ. And accordingly, disobedience to the law of Christ gets you only one thing- damnation in hell. In order to understand section 88 one must place the context of the endowment in order to understand the telestial and terrestrial are not eternal worlds of glory after resurrection and judgment. So, unless you can provide some other logic to say God will deliver souls eternally out of hell without obedience to Christ's gospel, then you must admit section 88 is not meant how you want it to. So, please entertain me on how you believe it's possible that man can be saved eternally from hell without obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel?

I don't believe this is very complex. Repentance in it's complete form is both about changing and paying a price which includes working to restore that which you caused wrong or harm to.

Ah...the perplexities of man's understandings. Between cultural trends and expectations we have sort of invented these standards in my opinion. In dreams I have seen passed ones wearing white raiment and they are both very well dressed and covered alike.

Well, if you remain in this predicament then you will find your place in hell eternally. In order to be saved from this eternal hell one must accept Christ through faith, repent and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, then follow on the path receiving other ordinances of salvation in the holy temple and showing obedience to them until you receive salvation.

You are wrong about some here being currently in the terrestrial and some being in the Celestial kingdom right now on earth. No one can be in a kingdom other than the kingdom one is quickened by and the only quickening power right now on the earth is the telestial for all mankind. Let me ask you this- do you suppose that Christ is going to save those who are not "righteous" after resurrection and judgment? This answer is a key to this whole mystery.

Would like to bring up this one point. If we are to just take the scriptures and endowment and leave all else out- opinions, interpretations, and other doctrines based on that interpretation, we really have pure doctrine regarding the kingdoms. To me, the endowment represents the clearest doctrine we have regarding the plan of salvation. We use the endowment to interpret scripture as it was given after the scriptures on the matter. Regarding symbolism, the endowment symbolizes man's journey from the pre-mortal, down to earth, into the millennium, and finally returning back to God. The endowment teaches us the meaning of the kingdoms, their placement, purpose, and duration. This Earth in it's present state, as taught there, is not symbolic of the telestial kingdom, no, it is actually explaining e are currently in "the telestial kingdom". It's a small point but important.

Well, however we figure it, in the end there will only be this Earth the saved dwell on, that's it.

You aren't LDS are you?

Verse "21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom." It mentions the "law of Christ". But what is the law of Christ? The law of Christ is the saving gospel which includes repentance, baptism, and other essential ordinances of the temple. No man is saved from hell without showing obedience to the law of Christ. Because the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are stages of the earth before the earth attains its celestial glory it is thus possible to come to earth and even live during the millennium without living the law of Christ. Verse 22- 24, 22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. 23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory. 24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory. Pretty straightforward here. We all are here in the telestial kingdom because we met the requirements or law to be here. During the millennium, which is the terrestrial kingdom, there will be another requirement to abide there. And so it is with the celestial, or final state of progression. Verse "25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law--" This tells us the logic of what it takes to abide celestial law. It means to fill the measure of our creation and not transgress the law. Well, this is interesting because only Christ was able to live in this scenerio withou transgressing Gods commandments. It shows us that it is not possible for us, in mortality, to live and abide celestial law. But, thats why we are in the telestial kingdom right now so that we can learn to live within the law, line by line, precept by precept, until we can live and abide by celestial law. That wont happen for quite some time after this life is over. Verse "26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it." This tells us some logic again. A body is quickened, or resurrected, only by the power which it is quickened with. Keep that in mind for the following verses. Now, about this part where the "righteous" inherit the earth. This slips back into the dichotomy of Christs gospel. And rightly so. Why? Because in the end, there will only be "righteous" and "wicked". This isnt our standard and definition but the Lords. All of the righteous inherit the earth. There wont be some "righteous" who go off on some other planet to inherit it. No, "all" the righteous will inherit the earth. So, we need to figure out who these "righteous" are; what makes them righteous. The scriptures speak of salvation only coming to the righteous. This salvation is the basic plan of salvation that speaks of being saved from the eternal hell. If one isnt "righteous" they are "wicked". There can be no other classification at that point. The righteous are called thst because of the repentance of all of their sins and obedience to the gospel. Christ says that he cleanses the world of all sin of those he saves. So, if all the saved are cleansed, it thus means they are "righteous" as no one can be saved if they are still in their sins and wicked. Verses 27-28, 27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body. 28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. The key here is thevphrase "They who are of a celestial spirit". What does this mean? This means those who live according to God in the spirit world. This means the "righteous". It also means they will go on to inherit celestial glory in the future. So why then, when speaking of these who are of a celestial spirit, be quickened or resurrected with different glories? Because the resurrection has already begun. Now, remember what I previoysly said about being quickened or resurrected by the glory of the kingdom? And what kingdom are we now in? The telestial. Therefore, all those who have thus been resurrected so far have only been resurrected by telestial glory. This doesnt mean thats all the glory they are eternally assigned to, no, it just means that the mother earth only has telestial glory and as such it can only quicken bodies with that power it abides by. At the beginning of the millennium it will be quickened by the terrestrial glory and likewise alk of the previously resurrected telestial bodies will be quickened to terrestrial glory. This process repeates at the end of the millennium to all of the righteous where their resurrected bodies will be quickened to celestial glory. Verses 29-32, 29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. The key here is what I just explained. Of interest though, in verse 32 the wicked are resurrected but return to their own place suggesting that only the wicked will not abide on the earth. This should suffice for now.

Sure, but it kind of bums me to spend some time doing it and getting no feedback.

I think one question that needs to be asked is - does not having an opening prayer for PH and RS take away from the spirit? Is it a negative to have a prayer?

The key is in verses 26 & 28. Who are the "righteous" and, what does it mean of "they who are of a Celestial spirit"? That is the key to understanding.

I agree.

Except that the Lord hasn't revealed it so their opinions are no different than yours or mine.

Watched the video, good stuff. It does make me think that even as we wonder where the events took place, so too are the prophets in the same exact boat. That tells me that until it's locations are revealed or confirmed, their opinions and wonderings are no different than our own and carry about the same weight.

And yet though there are various differences our sex organs are all basically the same.

I will give a brief synopsis of each verse how I interpret it. One thing of importance is that the verses do not collectively describe one group but several groups, some of which were ignorant or under no condemnation, while others were transgressors and in condemnation and judged by the law. 72 Behold, these are they who died without law. This verse covers a myriad of people. It includes the heathen Nations who knew no law. It also includes the ignorant. It also includes the handicapped, mentally incapable, and small children who died before becoming truly accountable. This group is unique because they cannot be judged by law, they are under no condemnation of the law and thus repentance is not required of this group. Anyone who is not judged by the law is not nor cannot be condemned by the law. This is explained in Moroni 8:22 "22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing." Verse 73- 73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; This describes all of the wicked who have ever lived, such as those in Noah's day who rejected him and those through all ages who died within the law and thus were condemned by the law and sent to the spirit prison but then, after paying their penalty, repented and accepted the gospel and baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost and all other ordinances of the temple. This is a Stark contrast type of people as compared to those in verse 72 who needed no repentance. The big picture here is that this group, in the end, live according to godliness in the spirit world awaiting their resurrection. Verse 74- 74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. This can apply to both groups previously mentioned. The gospel is taught in both paradise (to those who died without law) and those in Spirit prison (those who died within the law and found to be condemned). No man can be saved in ignorance. Verse 75- 75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. This group basically describes the righteous on this Earth, it can also describe some of us- you and I. We are honorable people who, through no real fault of our own, are blinded by the craftiness of man's devices and from time to time get caught up in such things as petty sins and transgressions such as swearing, viewing inappropriate material, etc. It also describes us in that we get caught up in the things of the world and see them as more important than being completely devoted to Christ. It represents us in not wanting to help others and make all alike. We like social and wealth structure too much. Verse 76- 76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. This verse and those that follow describe the earth during the millennium. We receive more light and truth but not yet the fullness. Verse 77- 77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. This verse is unique in that it describes the glory of Christ. But pay attention- if this were after resurrection and judgment at the end of the millennium then it would describe Christ as having the glory of the fulness of the Father. At that point Christ goes no more out and has the same glory as the Father which is a fulness. So, the question must be asked- if this were at that point how could the terrestrial abide his fulness? They couldn't, and neither is Christ shedding some of his glory so that they could abide in his presence. No, this describes the millennium where we will live and reign with Christ as we are not yet ready for a fulness. And, because Christ hasn't yet to sit on his throne where he is crowned with the fulness we thus can abide in his presence. Much more could be said on this point but it suffices for now. Verse 78- 78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun. Of course, during the millennium all those living on the earth will only have terrestrial bodies because they are quickened by the glory of the earth at that time which is quickened by the glory of Christ. Verse 79- 79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. This is a unique verse because it specifically refers to the saints- to you and I, all of the members of the church. To be valiant is to be perfect. None of us are perfect or "valiant". If we were we would immediately receive the crown which is a fulness. We are yet imperfect and still need learning and training. Thus happens during the millennium. Now, also remember, this group is not the same as those in either verse 72 or 73 as they received no testimony of Christ in the flesh through the ordinances of the gospel but received that testimony after death. For now that should suffice.