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Fether

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  2. Is there a word for this?

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    45 minutes ago, scottyg said:

    covetousness

    In the scenario of wanting a siblings toy, yes… but not so much in How it applies to me.
     

    It’s not about wanting something that isn’t yours, but rather being content until you see something and you can no longer function until you have it. This is an experience that happens regardless of whether it is something you have or don’t have.

    a simple example. I am content playing with my children. Then my wife yells “I have ice cream for everyone!”. All of a sudden I am no longer content with my children, I am now craving ice cream and don’t want to play with my kids. Had my wife not told me there was ice cream, I would have been content continue playing with my children.

    Its this experience I am talking about. We don’t want something till we know it is there and all of a sudden we demand it.

  3. Is there a word for this?

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    The experience when someone doesn’t want something until they see it.

    My children experience this when they see each other playing with a toy. They were as happy as they could be until they saw their sibling playing with a toy. They all of a sudden become angry until they get that toy.

    Im trying to find a word for this because it helps me overcome weaknesses if I can label it. I find myself doing this extremely often. I am as happy as can be until I see an interesting video, forum post, or article. I then can no longer function until I watch or read the thing I saw.

    Is there a word or concept that explains this?

  4. Question about Sherem

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    On 2/11/2022 at 5:32 AM, JohnsonJones said:

    Today we have the Jewish people and the Jewish Faith.  We  have Islam.  We have other faiths and religions.

    We know we have a Savior and that the Messiah came and fulfilled his mortal ministry and the atonement, but we also have many who do not believe this.

    They interpret their scriptures in a different way than we do, even when they may have the same scriptures and same stories as we do. 

    Some look for a Messiah to come, but others of them look for a different type of millennial arrival or may even believe in something different completely.

    Sherem's case was different though, as he was purposefully trying to overthrow the doctrine of the Lord.  When it came to the end he stated

    This indicates that he knew the truth, that he knew what he was doing, but had fallen to temptation and sin. 

    We have some similar today that know the gospel, have testimonies of it, and yet deny it.  They are not necessarily just of our religion, but of Christianity.  They find a sin that they love or desire try to find a justification for it.  They may even say that the scriptures support them, even as they turn away and deny the scriptures and Christianity.  We have a growing population that are ex-christians today that now claim to be atheist or lean atheistic agnostics.  Some of them are very well versed in the scriptures, but use it to try to convince people that Christianity is not true, or that our belief in our Lord and Savior is incorrect. 

    In many ways, Sherem can be seen as a type and a Shadow of similar arguments and situations of our day (as many things in the Book of Mormon can be seen and used).

    Maybe you can help me with this. The Book of Mormon videos put out by the church seem to paint Sherem as a Jew who rejects the Christian idea of Christ. However, Christ hadn’t come yet so there wasn’t yet any conflict to be had on who Christ was.

    was the name “Christ” not something the Jews used to refer to the messiah as? Was “Christ” only a term used by Christian’s after his coming and revealed to the Nephites? 

  6. Faith and Politics

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Vort said:

    Here's the best I can do.

    "And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

    "...eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him..."

    You are swaying me. Though my mind is not quite content with either side of the argument.

  8. Faith and Politics

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Fether

    1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

    The only thing we know for sure are two items:
    1) We dwell with the Father and receive all the Father hath

    2) We remain "bound" (sealed) to our eternal companion

    3) We have the continuation of seed

    4) What Christ said in mortality remains true in immortality, what the Father doeth we do. (This is the only ambiguous statement regarding eternal life, exaltation)

    So my question is just based on whether or not we think there are people who look at those blessings and say “nah”

    numbers 2 and 3 I can see people being ok missing out on. Don’t know about 1 and 4

  9. Faith and Politics

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Vort said:

    "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

    "And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

    "...eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him..."

    This topic is discussed in Church meetings every Sunday.

    I recognize that. But what that entails isn’t exactly ever spelled at. Only one of those references you gave gives any sort of substance. To know God and Christ (which still isn’t clear).

    is that all they are missing? To know God?

  11. Faith and Politics

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Fether

    1 hour ago, Vort said:

    "...eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him..."

    The reasoning you offer is the same reasoning I clung to for many years, so I believe I authentically know where you're coming from. I finally abandoned that line of reasoning when I realized that the scriptures uniformly spoke of "heaven", what we would call "exaltation", as an unmitigated good, and I could never find a single scriptural passage that suggested that some people would simply be constitutionally happier not having to deal with all that celestial stuff.

    Some people will indeed choose, in some sense, a telestial or terrestrial glory over that of exaltation, but that is not because they would have been unhappy had they prepared themselves to accept a celestial law. It is because "...they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." That is the barebones truth. They are simply unwilling to enjoy the gifts proffered by a loving Father.

    Will the differences between kingdoms be beauty, delicious foods, party games, internet connection, health care? Or will the differences be duty, and with duty comes further capability? Perhaps something else?

    I know plenty of people who have no desire for callings and would be happier not involved in that. They also feel little pain in the fact that they aren’t involved in stake high counsel meeting.

    What could they possibly miss out on that would make them wish to be there?

  12. Faith and Politics

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

    In that sense, we could not be seen as universalist. 

    HOWEVER, we ALSO believe that, except for the Sons of Perdition, all will be saved into a Kingdom of Heaven.

    Because our understanding of Hell is that it is temporary is what lead me to peg us with the universalist tag. Everyone will be in some joyous form of paradise by the end of it all.

  13. Faith and Politics

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Fether

    2 hours ago, Vort said:

    Nothing you have offered here (except for your opinions) indicates the number of sons of perdition will be unusually small. That is the inference made by Saints who conclude that, since denying Christ requires knowing Christ, and since there are few who truly know Christ, even among the Saints, this general ignorance of the world protects them from so damning themselves. (Strangely enough, it appears not to impede them from exaltation, a condition that requires intimate knowledge of the Savior in a personal way. But I suppose that's another topic.) In any case, this idea of protective ignorance may be right. But I personally do not find the argument particularly convincing.

    As a late middle-aged adult, I have found that many people crave the flesh and its desires, and seemingly care nothing for matters of the spirit. I have neither the authority nor the desire to name the condemnation such people will face, but it is not al all obvious to me that their fate can be waved off with a casual, "Oh, they're the telestial spirits." We simply do not know enough about such things to make any such determination.

     

    1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

     

    I don’t know that I’d go *quite* that far.

    In the first place, our theology tells us that we were created/begotten/organized as children of God.  The function of children is to grow up like their parent.  Every attribute God has, exists in embryo in us, His offspring.

    Now, sure, individuals can choose not to develop some of those attributes, and (probably) eternally remain in an underdeveloped state, and they may not find the experience particularly tortuous.  But it’s also not what they were designed to become.  It’s like growing up as an amputee, and then rejecting the opportunity to have a fully-functional limb re-grown when it’s offered to me.  No, it’s not hell; but I’m still being a dipweed and ultimately needlessly limiting my potential and my quality of existence.  Similarly:  My relegation to a lesser kingdom may not constitute “damnation” or “punishment” in the classical sense, but there are indeed ramifications—some quite serious—if I reject or otherwise fail to achieve exaltation.

    Second, of more immediate concern:  I do think that much of the way we approach missionary work can be myopic, in the sense that we often allow our primary motivator to become concern for someone’s eternal well-being.  Being a Saint is supposed to bring an abundant life—not an abundance of material goods, perhaps; but an abundance of stability and virtue and sociality and goodness and good humor (and, of course, a meaningful sense of communion with the Divine).  I find that at the times of my life when that sort of abundance permeates my very existence, missionary work becomes almost second-nature; and it’s less about openly proselytizing than about just enjoying and amplifying the various forms of goodness I see around me, articulately and informedly expressing beliefs and answering questions in appropriate venues, and trusting that eventually people’s appreciation and admiration of goodness itself will transform into admiration of the God who is the author of all goodness.

    But I also agree with @Vort:  I think there are lots and lots of people who are such absolute cranks about some topic or other that, if God won’t be prevailed upon to see things their way, they would spend a couple of eternities completely away from His influence rather than be reconciled to (or, as they would see it, “subjugated by”) Him; and I think such folks form the nucleus of the Sons of Perdition.  I think it’s fair to worry that our being too casual in using the word “Universalist” to describe our beliefs, even if it has some measure of truth (and even though I think I’ve used the word myself in some contexts), risks creating/prolonging pain by giving folks an excuse to persist in destructive behaviors and procrastinate a process of repentance and improvement and reconciliation that would make their lives qualitatively better now and easier in the hereafter.  

    TLDR; I’m right, you’re wrong


    I will concede that universalist is a poor word for what I am trying to say. I now recognize that it comes with the mindset of procrastination and casual worship. In my somewhat recent experience, I have 3 siblings who all left the church. Two of which never really had a strong testimony despite being raised in the same home as me and the other. My mom spent a long time beating herself up by thinking she failed as a mother and that it is her fault there will be “empty chairs at the table” in the celestial kingdom. We have spoke on this often and are confident happiness of some sort awaits them. A never ending boiling cauldron of lava is not their destination and I choose to believe Joseph Smith when he says “the glory of the telestial kingdom surpasses all understanding”. I’m not saying some amount of misery will not be experienced, I’m simply stating they will be happy where they are at. Perhaps happier there than anywhere else.
     

    Brigham young was quoted to have said;

    “Some might suppose that it would be a great blessing to be taken and carried directly into heaven and there set down, but in reality that would be no blessing to such persons; they could not reap a full reward, could not enjoy the glory of the kingdom, and could not comprehend and abide the light thereof, but it would be to them a hell intolerable and I suppose would consume them much quicker than would hell fire. It would be no blessing to you to be carried into the celestial kingdom, and obliged to stay therein, unless you were prepared to dwell there”

    But my thoughts on this still stand, everyone is saved (except sons of perdition, which I will get to in a second). I just do t wish to include in that any sense of apathy toward missionary work.but rather an understanding that not all are elect. There seems to be some acknowledgement in scripture that only a few are elect and desires of exaltation:

    “Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
    Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men” (Doctrine and Covenants 121:34-35)

    “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matt 7:14)

    “ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;” (Doctrine and Covenants 29:7)

    “gather mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, even as many as will believe in me, and hearken unto my voice” (Doctrine and Covenants 33:6)

    search “elect” in the gospel library and you will find references to finding the elect of God in virtually every general conference. Not everyone is elect and that is ok.

    Lastly, before I hop topics. John 14:2 says “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.” mansions is cross referenced to “telestial kingdom”. Ether 12:32 say God has prepared house for man among the mansions of our fatber. I have to believe God has prepared a place for everyone regardless of what truth they decide to follow. Despite not everyone being elect and fit for exaltation, there is a glories place awaiting all his children. I deliberately leave out the * that should say “except sons of perdition” because so believe that is a negligible number and not worth discussing

     

    I will also concede that my thoughts on the sons of perdition being small in number is an opinion. I’ll add more context to why I think this:

    “The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin” (The Miracle of Forgiveness).

    ”What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 6:314)

    “Those who enter into the telestial kingdom, where their glories differ as do the stars of heaven in their magnitude, and who are innumerable as the sands of the seashore, are the ungodly, the filthy who suffer the wrath of God on the earth, who are thrust down to hell where they will be required to pay the uttermost farthing before their redemption comes. These are they who receive not the gospel of Christ and consequently could not deny the Holy Spirit while living on the earth.
    “They have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:22).

    To me, it seems clear that the message trying to be conveyed is that it is extremely difficult to become a son of perdition. It’s not merely rejecting the gospel (the last quote makes that clear) but rather having received the highest of all blessings and being shown the truth in a way that removes ALL uncertainty, and THEN refusing it. Again, I’ll concede this to be opinion, but I doubt anyone I know is capable of this. One has to climb to the highest rungs of righteousness, see God, and then reject him. Knowingly reject the reality of the situation after having been made known of it.

  14. Faith and Politics

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Vort said:

    there will indeed be such people, perhaps more than we presently understand

    I’ve heard the exact opposite opinion from virtually everyone I have heard speak on this. This is the first I have heard this opinion spoken.

    "Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. Second, it is the permanent location of Satan and his followers and the sons of perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ." - Gospel Topics

    that spirit prison is temporary, sons of perdition are eternal. I guess this topic depends on whether the sons ofmoersitio. Will be infinitely small in number or far more common. I imagine the numbers will be so small that it will be inconsequential consider g the description of those who will be in the telestial kimgdom and sons of perdition

    ”Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who “received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is sometimes called hell” - Gospel Topics

    ”The inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will include those who were murderers, liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers—in general, the wicked people of the earth” - Doctrines if the gospel manual

    ”Those who in mortality have known the power of God, been made partakers of it, and then later denied the truth and defied God’s power will also be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:31–32). Those who deny the Holy Ghost after having received it and crucify the Savior unto themselves will have no forgiveness and will be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:34–36; Matthew 12:31–32).” - Doctrines of the Gospel Manual

    I believe the number of those who “have known the power of God, been made partakers of it, and then later denied the truth and defied God’s power” will be unbelievably small

  15. Faith and Politics

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    14 minutes ago, Vort said:

    Yeah...I completely disagree with this. In any sense that the larger religious world understands the term "universalist", we are not universalists.

    True. Their understanding of Salvation, hell, judgement, sin, and virtually all gospel topics are different. Naturally there would need to be some adjustment of definition in universalism. 
     

    All that aside, we believe Christ saved everyone and that no one is going to hell (traditional Christian view of hell). This is a universalistic view.

  17. Faith and Politics

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    Just now, Grunt said:

    Of course it's an issue.   The benchmarks you set aren't visible.   It requires insider knowledge someone will never have.   That's why we listen to the Spirit.

    I’m simply pointing out that it isn’t a problem if someone would rather have a lower degree of glory than Celestial glory.  Much of this life is about finding out what we want and seeking it. We ought not lol down on those who do not want to responsibility that comes with our faith

  21. Faith and Politics

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    53 minutes ago, Grunt said:

    I might not be asking the question you want, but it isn't the wrong question.

    Quote

    I would add that asking someone who doesn’t believe in God “how can I help lead you to Chris  isn’t very useful.” It might scratch the “I’m a missionary” itch, but it is unlikely to move any needle.

  22. Faith and Politics

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Fether

    1 hour ago, Godless said:

    one of the most off-putting traits of Christians/LDS is the conversion mindset. Far too often, I've encountered people of faith whose interest in me is based entirely on their perceived ability to "save" me.

    What’s nice about the Latter-day Saint faith and doctrine is that we are extremely universalist. Everyone is “saved” and there is nothing joining our faith will do for your salvation beyond giving you more freedom in the afterlife. 
     

    What’s not so nice is that the Latter-day Saint faith gets a little Christian culture sneaking in on occasion. We begin proselyting more ferociously than we ought to on occasion. Instead of trying to convince, we ought to be seeking the elect and parting truth we have to people when they are ready to hear it. That is our faith, truth and love  to all who will hear and receive and to whatever extent they wish to receive it.

    In the end, we will all receive that which  we wish to obey 

  23. Callings

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    On 2/3/2022 at 1:17 PM, Grunt said:

    Has anyone ever turned down a calling?   Has anyone ever accepted a calling and after thought you were in way over your head?   Stories, thoughts, and advice welcome.

    I always accept my callings, but I have not been offered a calling I would want to refuse.

    If I was offered a calling I feel I couldn’t do, I would explain my situation to the person offering the call and why I feel I may not be the best fit. After explaining the situation, I would then say “I am more than happy to accept the calling, I just wanted to let you know my limitations.”

  24. Faith and Politics

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    45 minutes ago, Grunt said:

    I mean, you are concerned about the individual judgement.  Wasn't that the whole point of your post?   You didn't make a post commenting on how the ExMos and ProgMos are always Meme-ing the Prophet.

    I believe all bad behavior should be called out.   Focusing on one side creates a popular narrative.

    I’m calling out my own side for not living to their ideals. My concern has to do with Doctrine and Covenants 82:3, Luke 12:47-48, and James 4:7

    I also have little drive to try and change Babylon, I’ve seen that fail over and over. Spending time building the kingdom of God is a better use of my time and effort.