clbent04

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Posts posted by clbent04

  1. 1 hour ago, Traveler said:

    With all this in mind – I believe that this thread if a fruitless endeavor to separate various terms symbolically describing the same essence.  In essence – there is no difference in our core belief, what is the object of our actual faith and the true urnings of our hearts.  Sometimes I think religious people get too wrapped up in the person of Jesus and lose track of the concept that Christ is “The Way”, “The Truth” and “The Light” – something more than the person.

    The purpose of this thread for me is to acknowledge and contemplate further how Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it.

    A specific example of what I relate this to is when X organization says to its member, "You must say the exact words, 'I accept Jesus Christ into my heart', in order to obtain salvation." This type of mindset is prevalent in many Christian religions including The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (think temple ordinances). Yes, being saved from an LDS belief perspective is possible without going through temple ordinances, but entering the Celestial Kingdom is not.

    I don't know if there is a "one and only true church of God" here on the earth today. Whether or not there is, I don't believe in a God who will condemn any of us for not reciting a specific phrase or doing a specific ordinance at least until the truth of such phrases or ordinances can be revealed to us in such a way we cannot deny or refute it.

    Living by faith to draw closer to Jesus Christ is evidenced by many different walks of life, and no one organization has the one and only way to do it.

  2. 2 hours ago, CV75 said:

    Where you believe doing good and exercising faith in Christ are the same, how is your belief that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" consistent with the possibility (you use “if”) that there is not “one and only one true religion out there”? 

    I don't know if God's one and only true religion is currently present on Earth. Whether it is or not, I believe God is a God of order and that a reconciliation will happen in due time to bring all His children together in His Kingdom. 

    2 hours ago, CV75 said:

    How is “choose with sure knowledge” the same as “know with a perfect knowledge” sufficient to “choose with faith.”? 

    Since I believe faith in Jesus Christ includes being prompted to do good both inside and outside the name of religion, and that He is the source of all good, I don't think it's important for our salvation (at least in this life) to be able to specifically name Jesus Christ as the source of that good.

    Bob does a good deed and in doing so helps build the Kingdom of God whether Bob knew the name Jesus Christ or not.

    Since my definition of faith in Jesus Christ is extended to any doer of good, this qualifies the majority of mankind to at least have had some degree of faith in Christ during our mortal lives. 

    I believe at some point every knee will bend and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Lord. At that point or sometime leading up to it, I believe all will be presented with the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord in a way it can not be refuted or denied. From that moment on, it will then be to our condemnation if we do not reverence and acknowledge the name Jesus Christ.

    I believe the words in Moroni 7 that we can have perfect knowledge of things which are of God through the Holy Spirit. The chapter is focused on relying on the Holy Spirit to distinguish between good and evil.

  3. 22 hours ago, CV75 said:

    Doing good does not yield the same results as exercising faith in Christ and walking the covenant path.

    I believe it is the same. I say this not from an LDS religious viewpoint, but how I believe God sees and evaluates all of His children on a spiritual level.

    All good is inspired by God, and He has many routes leading us back to His Kingdom. That's not to say I don't believe in "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." It's to say if there is one and only one true religion out there, the God I believe in isn't going to condemn us until we are given the choice to choose with sure knowledge of all options.

  4. 36 minutes ago, mikbone said:

    Dunno, I wouldn’t plan my salvation based on your preference.

    It's not so much my preference as it is my understanding of God and how I believe God sees all His children and interacts with the world at large. I spent most my life overly concerned about how God will judge the world. Now I'm happy to leave that to the worry of others who might be stuck like I was in overly focusing on how God might condemn. I believe God is more merciful, understanding, and forgiving than most of us give Him credit for.

  5. 1 hour ago, CV75 said:

    Many people who do not have the restored gospel or even religion at all can still "follow and embrace the light" by abiding the principles of truth they do have. Over time we believe this will lead them to faith in Christ and making and keeping His covenants.

    If God is the source of all light, and I'm motivated to action to do good by the influence of light, would I not already have faith in Christ even if I didn't know the specific name Jesus Christ?

  6. 44 minutes ago, zil2 said:

    I'm sorry if I offended you, @clbent04.  Events of recent years have hammered home to me (through the hardest trial I've ever experienced) that the first and great commandment - to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind - is first and greatest for good reason, and this means that it is worthy of your first and greatest efforts to obey.

    Perhaps our discussion has only suffered from misunderstandings in the language used or the difficulty in communicating perspective.  I just hope you will remember to keep God the Father and Jesus Christ in the picture as you pursue the abstracts of various virtues and principles which they exemplify.

    Please know I don't think ill of you and wish you all the best. :)

    No hard feelings. I appreciate your responses. I’m aware this thread is a bit scatterbrained on my part due to me trying to put words to thoughts I’ve never articulated before. What I can say is it’s one of those things where if we both put in enough brain power to sort out, we’d likely come to the conclusion that either we were saying the same thing all along in different ways or the differences are so minimal they’re immaterial. Instead of doing the work to get there, I’m content just leaving it where it is knowing that we both have good intentions and are coming from good places. 

  7. 58 minutes ago, zil2 said:

    I don't like to say it, @clbent04, but I feel compelled to...  Your words sound like, "I don't want to know the truth about God because it interferes with things I believe."  Are you wanting to bolster your own current beliefs or are you wanting to gain an understanding of and relationship with God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

    That said, I don't understand how a correct understanding of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost can possibly fail to support a believe that God is the source of all good - since that's true.

    I don’t feel the need to respond further. Thank you for responses. I may revisit at a later time. 

  8. 17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

    Whether you mean it or not, your words say that you're trying to go the other direction.  Words mean something.

    Sometimes it's the fault of the author. Sometimes it's the fault of the interpreter. Whichever the case, we both are followers of Jesus, and truth, and light. My failure for adequately conveying what's in my heart or your failure in misinterpreting it doesn't change that.

  9. 4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

    What exactly do you believe faith is?  If you have faith in Christ, what does that mean to you?

    I believe faith in Jesus Christ is not only faith in the supreme being Jesus Christ, but also in all things related to truth and light since He is the source of all things good. Faith in Jesus Christ to me means that we follow and embrace the light inside or outside the name of religion. 

  10. 4 hours ago, Ironhold said:

    The third generation Tacoma vehicles were assembled in San Antonio as well as two factories in Mexico. It's been confirmed that the fourth generation will be made in Mexico, but no word yet on if production will continue in San Antonio. 

    My 3rd gen 2019 Tacoma was manufactured in Baja California, Mexico. 

    Tacoma.jpg.1a88381b0b2ab2612fa08962fa563db6.jpg

    1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

    My next truck will be a Tundra.

    If I got a full size truck I'd probably go with the Tundra as well.

  11. 1 hour ago, zil2 said:

    IMO, never the same thing.  Faith in Christ, I've already defined.  I do not need to believe that mankind can do anything in order to have faith in Christ.  Look at Moroni - he was alone and hunted by the Lamanites.  He had faith in Christ.  I imagine the only faith he could muster in the people around him was faith that they'd kill him if they could catch him.  Similar things could be said of Ether.

    Your examples focus on the disobedience of man. That isn't what I was addressing. I was talking about the light of Christ within us.

  12. 1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

    So, if we worship man that means the same thing as worshiping Christ?

    No. 

    But you are trying out Buddhism, aren't you?  Or was that someone else?

    Not the same context as to what I'm addressing. I said "faith in Jesus Christ" and you switched it to "worship." Not the same. Faith in Jesus Christ can also apply to faith in the light of Christ that is within us. We are the body of Christ when we take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ.

    I didn't mention anything about Buddhism.

  13. 5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

    That was not reflected in the title of the thread or in your OP.  It's ok if you're changing topics.  That happens.  But do you understand why you had me confused by doing so?

    Yes, my thoughts are a bit jumbled in how I've expressed them in this thread. Apologies for that. And also thank you for your responses. In my mind, these thoughts are clearly connected together with the focus being on how God has not come to condemn but to save.

    5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

    It is not that the actions alone suffice. But that the faith behind the action was real and sufficient to motivate action.  And that the actions were motivated by faith in Christ rather than faith in man.

    We take upon ourselves the name of Christ and collectively represent the body of Christ. The light of Christ is present among mankind. Having faith in Christ and having faith in mankind sometimes represents the same thing, does it not? God works through us.

  14. 3 hours ago, zil2 said:

    This is true.  Though an understanding of the roles of God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, and that they are two different people is also important.  (Just to be clear.)

    In terms of affecting our progression here on Earth, I don’t think it’s important to distinguish the Father from the Son. Whether they are two separate beings or one, it has no significant bearing on how I’m progressing here on Earth and living by faith. Once God reveals these things to us where we have a sure knowledge, then I think it’s important to accept and embrace the truth as it’s revealed to us. 

  15. 2 hours ago, Vort said:

    I cannot be saved without knowing and accepting Christ's salvation. So yes, it matters that we "give credit specifically to someone named Jesus Christ."

    I agree with what you said here. I didn't word a few of posts as well as I could have to accurately convey what I was trying to express. I believe giving credit to Jesus Christ is important, but since He has many names, I don't think saying the specific name "Jesus Christ" is important. If I want to say God instead of Jesus Christ, my faith is neither diminished nor magnified.

  16. 2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

    Well, this is a completely different question now.  It seems you're going all over the board.  Again I ask:  What is really going on?

    Maybe you ought to take a different approach.  Just take a breath.  There is something else that is the root of your question.

    Once you figure that central point, then try to figure out what all these other things are that you're asking about.  How do they connect to your central point.

    Don't think it will come all at once.  Ponder for a few days.  Recollect your thoughts.  Bring it into a cohesive statement and question.  Then try again.

    My central point through this thread has been focused on how God came to save the world, not condemn it. I've posted this topic largely thinking about those I've observed in this world condemning others in the name of Jesus Christ. 

    When I see people wanting others to say specific phrases like, "I accept Jesus Christ into my heart", or something along those lines where it's expected to be repeated verbatim in order to get that organization's sign off that that person has been saved, that to me has more of a focus on exclusion and condemning rather than saving. 

    I think many religious organizations are guilty of condemning and overstepping boundaries of judgement that are God's and God's alone.

  17. 43 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

    With an absolute such as God, one cannot separate the two.  The feelings of love are what guide us to Him.  He is the embodiment of charity.

    So, that makes me wonder why you asked the original question. 

    I'm trying to open my mind in terms of how God comes to save the world, not condemn it. When we say we must have faith in Jesus Christ to be saved, I think I misinterpreted that phrase for most my life as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; I applied it too narrowly. I applied it more in terms of God damning people who aren't members of the Church rather than seeing how He is working with all of His children regardless of creed.

  18. On 10/9/2023 at 12:17 PM, zil2 said:

    Jesus Christ is our salvation.  His is the only name.  He is the only way.  Without him, all are damned.  Sure, his name is slightly different in various languages.  Sure, he has many names.  But the person we know as Jesus Christ is the only one with the power to offer us salvation and exaltation.  And as Alma said, we will be called by his (Christ's) name at the last day.  If you don't know that name, or more precisely, if you haven't taken it upon yourself by covenant (either personally or by proxy), then you are not saved or exalted.  It is that simple.  So yes, the name matters.  Eventually (by the end of the Millennium) all will have heard it and decided whether to accept or reject the person whose name it is.

    When it comes to God, I can't conceptualize everything that He is, how He came to be, how He exists as an individual, nor His power. When I say I have faith in Jesus Christ, I'm saying I have faith in something I don't understand. This makes analyzing the statement - faith in Jesus Christ - difficult for me.

    What I do understand are feelings or love, forgiveness, and compassion. God is all these things and is the source. I use these synonymously with Jesus Christ and God. Yes, Jesus Christ is more than a feeling, He is an individual, He is God, but it's those very feelings that help guide us towards the light. 

  19. 24 minutes ago, Vort said:

    Is oxygenation of our blood more important than breathing? The question itself is defective. "Faith in Jesus Christ" and "the condition of our hearts" are not separate or separable phenomena. Faith in Christ determines the condition of one's heart, and the condition of one's heart determines the ability to exercise faith in Christ.

    FTR, the answer is "faith in Christ". That is the important determiner. On this point, the scriptures are clear.

    I'm questioning what "faith in Christ" really means. I think it's more comprehensive than simply being confined to, "I believe in someone named Jesus Christ as my Savior." 

    There's not a specific phrase or statement that we need to say in order to meet the criteria that we have faith in Christ. My opinion is we don't even need to specifically acknowledge the name Jesus Christ in order to have faith in Him since Jesus Christ is God and God is all things related to truth and light. If we seek after good things, we seek Jesus Christ. 

    Does it even matter to our salvation that we give credit specifically to someone named Jesus Christ? I don't think so. God has many names: Alpha and Omega, Messiah, Jehovah, Immanuel, The Word, Our Dwelling Place, Lord Master... Is God not all truth and light?

    I think the purpose of specifically naming Jesus Christ has more to do with better understanding and appreciating the Savior's atoning sacrifice than it has to do with anything related to our salvation.

    This President Nelson quote that @zil2 shared makes sense to me in this regard:

    Quote

    There is no amorphous entity called “the Atonement” upon which we may call for succor, healing, forgiveness, or power. Jesus Christ is the source. Sacred terms such as Atonement and Resurrection describe what the Savior did, according to the Father’s plan, so that we may live with hope in this life and gain eternal life in the world to come. The Savior’s atoning sacrifice—the central act of all human history—is best understood and appreciated when we expressly and clearly connect it to Him.

  20. 20 minutes ago, zil2 said:

    There is no amorphous entity called “the Atonement” upon which we may call for succor, healing, forgiveness, or power. Jesus Christ is the source. Sacred terms such as Atonement and Resurrection describe what the Savior did, according to the Father’s plan, so that we may live with hope in this life and gain eternal life in the world to come. The Savior’s atoning sacrifice—the central act of all human history—is best understood and appreciated when we expressly and clearly connect it to Him.

    @zil2 thank you for sharing this quote by President Nelson. This touches on part of what I was contemplating, namely, why it makes a difference - "The Savior’s atoning sacrifice—the central act of all human history—is best understood and appreciated when we expressly and clearly connect it to Him."