decafdarcy

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Posts posted by decafdarcy

  1. 12 hours ago, zil said:

    The problem here, @Sunday21 is that "Mormon" is just an artificial overlay that @decafdarcy is trying to force over a story that actually has nothing to do with anything "Mormon", but which needs a "Beehive" motif to come from somewhere.  Based on the two threads we have about this story, I would say that anyone who knows the Church well will find the overlay as artificial as it is, and entirely unbelievable (to the point of distraction from the actual story).  Thus, how do we help Darcy fix this problem?

    As an author, I fully understand the idea that Darcy has a story which insists on being told, that she also needs this beehive motif to come from somewhere believable, and thus far, she's only found it among Mormons.  I also understand that yanking out something you've already based your plans on is painful (I once yanked the first 200 pages from book 3 - it was extremely difficult, but it had to be done).  But we have here a story that mainstream Mormon reality isn't going to fit with.  So here are my ideas for how to resolve this problem:

    1) You could try to go with a polygamous Mormon offshoot - people who are not Mormon but claim the same starting point.  The problem here is that from what little I know of such groups, the husband (and other men) would have more control over things, and a 12-13 year-old girl would probably be two steps away from being married off to some older man.  So, this has problems.

    2) Do what L. E. Modesitt, Jr. does in his science fiction novels and set your story in the future, with some very morphed version of the Church.  (For the record, it's said this author hates the Church (or at least dislikes it - hard to say which as there are no first-hand sources), but he always includes some morphed version in his science fiction novels, all of which are based around the future of people on or from the real Earth as we now know it.  Usually, the reference is vague and the Church is never significant to the story - in the ones I've read - they're just part of the scenery.)  Anywho, the point being, when you take the story out of reality, you're free to manipulate things without worrying so much about credible.

    3) Some mix of 1 & 2 might work best - what if there were another offshoot, one started by someone like Kate Kelly / Ordain Women?  One where women have taken leadership of the offshoot church.  Here we have a setting that works with a domineering mother and not so involved father.  We have a world where the girl sees women as powerful authority figures.  The girl might want to be a functional part of this structure, but her own mother, instead of helping her along is over-controlling, critical, or what-have-you.  It would be perfectly natural for her to seek out another woman leader (e.g. in another ward or stake or whatever they want to call them - the Beehive motif could be soaked for all it's worth in this artificial realm, and instead of wards we now have "hives").  For a girl to assert this option and be supported by another adult female in the church wouldn't be so contrived.  Even for lesbianism to be acceptable would not have to be contrived in this realm.

    4) Bag all relation to Mormons and come up with another source for the beehive motif - and it can also be entirely fictional, doesn't have to come from the real world.

    To me #3 and #4 seem like obvious solutions to the problems of (a) the mainstream Mormon reality not fitting the story, and (b) the need to get a "Beehive" image from somewhere.  It may require the storyteller to do the hard work of trashing an idea already firmly embraced, but from everything I've seen in these two threads, the story will be much better served by detaching it from mainstream Mormon reality.

    (The following is a note on cultural details that I'm not sure are known (though they may well be), but which I fear may be erroneously involved in all this...  A 12-13 year old girl is a member of "Beehives" or the "Beehive" class in the Young Women organization.  She might be called "a Beehive" (not a "Bee" in the "Beehive"!).  But this name would only be used in very specific situations and isn't likely to be used outside of those few situations.  Mentioned just in case there was some hope of tying it in as significant - or worse, referring to the character as a "Bee" - never in all history could that be realistic.)

    Whilst I appreciate your input, I will not be removing the mormon aspect from this story. The story was made before I even found out about the beehive symbolism - I added that in afterwards and realised how well fitting the metaphor of bees would be. The story is based on one of my sisters friends who lives across the road from us, which this exact thing happened to. She decided to leave the church as she didnt agree with views and the restrictions they put on her life, and her mother didnt like it and essentially shunned her. The story will not change or lose the mormon symbolism or anything. I don't think it needs fixing at all.

  2. 3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

    Having a new queen (aka boss) is repeating the cycle and isn't healing.  Knowing yourself is healing.  You can choose to keep things with you (like faith), but it must be YOUR faith.  

     

    (Man I am being SO soapbox-y... my apologies...)

    So be it then. This isn't necessarily of recovery or healing, but its a story of supersedure. If I had more time in this film, I would definitely add a tail end, and a story of recovery perhaps. It may end up that the story focuses on the abusives patterns Hannah dives into. I actually quite like the darker side of it, and that the situation is inevitably going to repeat. But the main difference i just that Zahri isnt a tyrannical queen, the way her mother is. She is given a choice to follow, and chooses to go with it, so therefor there is an element of hope for the relationship.

  3. 1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

    If a person is codependent, the relationship is automatically doomed (saved of course, the broken person does find themselves through a different path). 

    (Sorry if I'm being a bit soap boxy... I've know a LOT of people in these situations). 

    Well, then that will be a matter of personal interpretation. Remember, it all comes back to the honey bee metaphor in the end. She discovers a more powerful influence than her religion, and her mother/father, so she follows that instead -The queen is superseded, a new colony is formed. She escapes the beehive. 

  4. Just now, Jane_Doe said:

    For starters: 

    The only way a person truly heals from abuse is by finding a sense of self and healing that self.  A lot of abused people will work up courage to flee a bad situation, but still lack that sense of self, and hence land in abusive situations again.  That's not always because the new person is a bad person, but because the other person is still codependent and lacking sense of self.  You've not healed at all, but simply changed the scenery.  

    That is true, I haven't healed anything, but this film is 10 minutes long, and can't be any longer than that I just don't have the time to include anything past the escape. The implication though is that she will heal, or she will find herself. I tend not to have a conclusion in films I make, but its open ended. You can interpret that she will heal and live a happy life with zahri, or that the process will repeat and she will end up unhappy and run away again. It depends on how you view the film I suppose. 

  5. 2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

    Personally, I'm a person who's been abused in the past, been in codependent relationships, and I'm LDS.  So your story is already grabbing a lots of strings in me that way and I feel like I some personal understanding of the situation you're trying to write.  And... I see a lot of red flags going on here (in your story about Hannah, that is).  

    Can you expand on that more - the red flags etc

  6. Just now, Jane_Doe said:

    So father is abusive too then (vicariously as he submits/permits to mom's abuse)? 

    Ok, so he's also in violation of he LDS faith (which father's are supposed to be Christ-like leaders).

    The LDS symbol of the beehive is one of industry and productivity (this includes your internal sense of self/development).  It's very opposite of what you're describing here (devoid of self and abuse).  It's really rubbing me the wrong way and seems like you're making an anti-faith stance.

     

    If you want to tell a story of standing up to abuse and have that be the focus, I would just remove the spiritual aspects as to not distract the reader with that. 

    Thats true, and I am going tp add some more details about how he is sick and worn down, which is why the mother is taking on the leadership role in the house. He doesn't permit the abuse, and its not like the mother beats the girl or anything - its more subtle such as gaslighting and insults. Some of it goes over his head, he doesnt even notices.

    And I've done a lot of research and the beehive does describe that, but the girl does develop, and is productive throughout the story. She does something about her situation, and stands up to her abuser. She isn't dragged into another situation but chooses to leave, to better herself. Zahri isn't another abuser, she's like a breath of fresh air. She see's Hannah is struggling and helps her. She's like a manic pixie dream girl.

    The symbol of the beehive works because the whole thing is a metaphor for bees, and the Beehive was the first term young women were known by.

    Personally, I am an atheist, so yes there probably is an underlying feeling of anti-faith which I am trying to avoid, but the story is less about the faith and more about the symbolism. I am neither promoting or discouraging faith with this story.

  7. 1 minute ago, person0 said:

    Why does she not choose to follow her father since he is loving and supportive?

    On another note, I am curious as to what initially moved you to choose the LDS faith for her family, as opposed to some other form of Christianity, or Islam, or Orthodox Judaism?

    The father won't leave the mother, so if she follows him she still remains under her mothers control. The reason I chose LDS was originally because my sister knows a girl who experienced something similar, and ended up leaving the church, so thats where the inspiration came from. I decided to follow through with it when looking into the symbolism, especially about the Beehive, and how I could create a nice symbolic story around it.

  8. Just now, Jane_Doe said:

    But do you think readers are going to cheer for a weak protagonists who at the beginning is codependent and lacks a sense of self, and at the end is still codependent and lacks a sense of self?

    Not necessarily, but I don't need them to. The stories I tend to write highlight the downfalls of humans and weaknesses more than their strengths. And she does grow stronger, as she stands up to her mother, and there is the subplot of her potentially accepting her sexuality identity, which is implied, but still present. I don't aim for applause with protagonists, but more for recognition.

  9. 1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

    I'd also be worried about whether or not your person Hannah is a admirable characters herself, or just a follower without much sense of self.

    (I really trying to to be critical here and apologize if it comes off that way.  I write stories myself, and really enjoy thinking characters through.  For me, it's characters which drive the story, I just write down what they do).

    You're right, she is definitely a follower, as she is young, and has never had her own life, but escaping with her new 'queen' will give her the opportunity to live as herself for once, which is like the 'selling' point for her. She's not necessarily admirable, but she's real. She has flaws.

  10. 3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

    But if she is abusing someone, she's in violation of her faith...

    For example: say a lady is uncontrolled OCD cleanly, and that leads her to be abusive of her family in the form of yelling at them when she perceives things as being 'messy' (in her OCD mind) and she forbids them from doing normal life activities because they might get dirty (like going to school, playing with friends, etc).   Such a person would be in violation of the LDS faith (because they are abusive), despite the fact that the LDS faith is in no way responsible for the OCD. 

    That's the point, she IS in violation of her faith, which is why in the end Hannah leaves her and follows her new "queen". Hannah decides she would rather follow someone faithless, then a hypocrite who uses her faith to excuse her own abuisve behaviour. It highlights her hypocrisy.

  11. 1 minute ago, zil said:

    If you checked the meeting house locator tool, then I'll take your word for it.  If not, and you're in the US, I doubt they're that far away - seriously, there may be few of us, but we tend to be everywhere. :) If another country that uses "states", then I wouldn't know (except that if it's legal for us to be there, we tend to be there, though it could well be far away from you).

    I live in Australia, so it is not a very faith heavy country to start with and has a very small population of LDS followers. There is one church in my city but it is too far away for me to visit, as I don't drive hahah.

  12. Just now, Jane_Doe said:

    For the record: ANY person who mistreats another person is not correctly following the LDS faith.  Abuse is not something to be tolerated.   That's not to say it never happens (tragically it does), but we greatly strive to combat that any anything related to it.

    That was part of my intention, as the mother is not the enforcer of the LDS faith, her father is, and he is the respectful and supportive one. The mother is abusive in her own way, and it does not overlap with the Mormon values, as I didnt want it to be interpeted as I was generalizing the faith as abusive

  13. On 2/17/2018 at 4:10 AM, Vort said:

    It falls to me to play the old grump, since no one else has seen fit to take on the role.

    To a Latter-day Saint, prayers are sacred. We rarely portray full prayers in dramatic or fictional works, and I would say never portray covenant ordinances in such a way. (Almost never -- I'm sure someone somewhere has done so.) I appreciate your striving for authenticity, but my sincere suggestion would be that you not attempt to portray such a sacred and private interaction.

    I also wonder what the story will portray in a larger sense. Is this a story of a heroic young women escaping from the oppressive shackles of the rigid Mormon patriarchy? If so, few here will be interested in helping out your effort. Can you maybe give some context for what you want to do with this information?

    The story does follow a girl leaving behind her religion but the story is more symbolic than literal, and it more portrays the abuse she experiences under the rule of her mother, which is seperate entirely from the religion. The whole thing is a metaphor for bees - the main character is a worker bee, loyal to her queen (her mother and her religion) until a new queen comes along, (a young girl called Zahri) who is younger and more powerful and challenges her allegiance. In the end she overthrows the current queen and follows the new one to a new colony. She does not abandon her faith, as she is quite devout and even after she leaves her mother she still follows the lifestyle she always did. It does deal with sexuality and her struggles to accept her feelings for her new queen as something more tham platonic, but it is not a disrespect of the religion, hence why I came on here, not wanting to inaccurately portray it. I will consider removing the prayer from the script if you think it is not a good idea to include it.

  14. On 2/17/2018 at 3:53 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

    One tip that is included in @LiterateParakeet‘s post, but that she doesn’t explicitly point out, is that for a long time Mormons were counseled to use the archaic second-person (“thee”, “thou” and its appropriate verbal conjugations like “hast”, “art”, “lovest”, and so on) when addressing deity; in order to maintain a more reverential tone.  This tradition isn’t as strong as it used to be (as @Grunt‘s post shows); but as an author, if you’re trying to convincingly write a character who was born and raised Mormon, it’s something to consider.

    I will keep this in mind, thankyou.

  15. On 2/17/2018 at 12:43 AM, zil said:

    Welcome, @decafdarcy

    The following may be information you already know / things you have already considered, but I have no idea what those things are, so here's some basic advice starting from zero...

    If you're going to write about Mormons without being one, I strongly recommend you attend church meetings at least a few times.  Visitors are welcome.  Be open and honest about why you're there to avoid any misunderstanding.  They might think you're a member from another ward just visiting that Sunday, so seek someone out (if they don't seek you out) and ask for someone to sit with and help you learn.  You should ask if you can attend Primary one+ week (to see what your character would have experienced) and Young Women's (if your character is 12+, or to see what she's expecting in her future) another+ week (you can't attend both in the same week as they meet at the same time (the 3rd hour, anyway)).  As you sit in the meetings, you can observe the children and imagine how they experience 3 hours of church (yes, 3 hours).  To avoid standing out, wear a skirt/dress that comes at least to your knees, that has some sort of sleeve, and doesn't show cleavage (pictures of modern women on LDS.org might give you some ideas).

    Primary children (under 12) and Young Women (12-18) also (may) attend Church activities during the week.  For a better story, you should ask if you can attend these too, since your character would.

    Thankyou for this suggestion. Unfortunately I live in a very un-mormon area, and there are basically 0 churches any where near me, but If i do ever find one in my state I will look into it.

  16. On 2/16/2018 at 8:33 PM, LiterateParakeet said:

    When we trach new members or children to pray we use a simple format.  "Heavenly Father,

    We thank thee.... (fill in what you're grateful for)  

    We ask thee .... (fill in what you want to ask God for)  

    In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen

     

    It's the same morning, evening, meals etc.  As one grows in their relationship with God, it is reasonable to move away from the formula a bit.  Simply address Heavenly Father, talk to Him as you would any earthly parent or someone you respect. Close in Christ's name. 

    When I say close in Christ's name, I mean you could use the phrase I shared above or say, "In Jesus' name. Amen."  Or "In the name of Thy Son, Jesus Christ. Amen"  

    Hope that helps.  You should try it out yourself.  :)

    Thankyou for this template. This will be incredibly helpful. 

  17. Hi, i am writing a short film currently which will be about mormonism and a young girl growing up in a mormon household. I am aware that people of this faith do not recite specific prayers, but instead come up with them on your own? Would anyone be able to provide me with a template of a prayer you might say when you wake up, or before you go to sleep, if thats something you do? Thankyou. I am very curious to learn more about this religion.