BJ64

No, because new revelations can always be added to the Doctrine and Covenants as was done with sections 137 & 138 and official declarations 1 & 2.

You’ll have to work off the extra calories for me though.

Correct, we are to follow the prophet. I never drink caffeinated soft drinks. However is drinking caffeine sinful behavior since several prophets have counseled against it? I’m not suggesting that anyone not follow the prophet which is why in this example I’m suggesting that drinking caffeinated soft drinks is a sin because it is failure to follow the teachings of several prophets. Most recently President Hinckley.

Do they? I’ve never paid attention.

In my view if you can’t find it in the four standard works of scripture it isn’t doctrine or at least commandments must be found in the scriptures or added to the scriptures in order to be binding upon the church but I may be wrong.

I don’t have ice cream but my wife made a layered pudding dessert so I’ll eat an extra serving for you.

Here is an article with several quotes. http://www.ldsliving.com/What-the-Prophets-Have-Really-Said-About-Caffeine/s/86182 I don’t want to make this all about caffeine. I just wonder where the line is between commandments and prophetic admonitions. When is it okay to go against the prophets counsel? Its no longer of concern since the church is leaving the Boy Scouts of America but in the past when I’ve said that I don’t support scouting because of their gay issues I would get a lecture from my father about how the prophet supports scouting therefore if you don’t support scouting then you are going against the prophet. I told him that we don’t believe in the infallibility of prophets but he didn’t agree with that either.

Yes, I saw that interview when it first aired.

Is it a sin to go against the counsel of the prophet even if that which he counsels against is not a commandment? For example caffeinated soft drinks are not against the word of wisdom but several prophets have counseled against their use. Therefore are you sinning by drinking caffeinated soft drinks even if they aren’t against the word of wisdom since you are disobeying the prophet’s counsel?

What I am looking for are the teachings of prophets throughout the ages not just those of the last few decades. I’ll repeat that I’m not saying it’s not a sin I’m just saying that I think there are many who believe it to be a much more serious sin than it is and thus lay a lot more guilt on people than is deserved. It’s perhaps less of a sin than pride, envy, jealousy, greed, anger, gossip, back biting, etc. and madturbation certainly causes less harm to others than many of these sins I list.

Do you know that the talk was given in general priesthood meeting October 1976. The talk was never printed in the Ensign likely for the very reason you state so it wouldn’t be seen by women and children. It was made int a pamphlet which was given to young men for many years. Why, I wonder was an anti masturbation pamphlet never handed out to young women? It’s not like it’s just a guy thing.

This is the sort of thing that I was referring to which can cause confusion for some. However do you know that the printed copy has been unavailable for many years and the online PDF version was removed from lds.org within a very short time after his death? It was never printed in the Ensign and I just noticed recently that the video of the conference talk is not on the lds gospel library. To my knowledge this talk can only be found on lds.org.

Yes of course I’ve read that passage. It’s found in part in chapter 5 of A Parent’s Guide. Here’s a question for you. I asked before and no one has answered. Who were the prophets who throughout the ages have condemned masturbation? I can’t find them.

Excuse for what? I don’t M, I’m merely stating that M is not as great a sin as many make it out to be. Compare the 413 references to pornography to the handful of direct references to M and a few vague references to it in general conference. It seems clear which is a greater concern. As I said, I didn’t hyphenate self abuse when I searched. It’s also hard to do searches of vague euphemisms.

My sincere curiosity has led me over the past seven or eight years to study everything I can find on the subject as far as it has been presented both in and out of the church historically and modern. There’s not much that has been written on the matter that I haven’t read.

When I did my search I did not hyphenate self abuse. Self-abuse has been said four times in general conference.

You know very well that in the church when we refer to “the prophet” we are referring to the president and senior apostle. I didn’t change any goal post. Mas far as being currently available, if it can’t be accessed it’s the same as no longer existing. I know that the Elder Packer address video is still available on lds.org but it has been removed from the lds gospel library.

Thank you. I agree with your assessment of self abuse. However, self abuse is the euphemism currently used in the English language version of the general handbook of instructions when referring to masturbation. Other languages use the word masturbation. Tadd R. Callister also used the term self abuse when speaking about masturbation in a talk given at BYU Idaho a few years ago. A version of this talk was also printed in the Ensign magazine with the same self abuse wording. I don’t know why the church/ church leaders are so into using euphemisms to avoid saying masturbation. (Elder Packer”s “little factory” talk) Elder Scott and FTSOY carefully word their advice with terms like “avoid arousing sexual feelings in your own body”. If the church doesn’t want you to masturbate then why don’t they just say don’t masturbate instead of beating around the bush? (No pun intended) I may be totally wrong here, and I probably am but I wonder if the reason is because masturbation has become completely socially acceptable and those who condemn it are viewed as old fashioned and foolish. So rather than risking looking old fashioned and foolish they use other words to get their point across. This however to me just confuses things. When you can honestly say that there is no mention of masturbation in the handbook or FTSOY or any general conference talk in the past 38 years it makes it appear that it is no longer thought of as much to be concerned with. Combine that with a statement by Elder Kim B. Clark saying that “masturbation is a behavior that, if continued, could over time could lead to things that are sinful...” certainly can lead one to believe it’s not much of a sin anymore in the eyes of the church. Yet there are local leaders who still treat it as a sin next to murder. Ibasked my current bishop why it is that there is so much inconsistency in how it it treated. His reply was that it’s not like bishops are trained on how to handle it so it’s up to each do decide what to do on an individual basis. If it was a great sin then it would seem that there would be a clearly written policy on how to address it rather than simply saying that self abuse is not a reason for disciplinary action.

Duplicate post

My definition for prophet in this case is the senior apostle. The only man on earth authorized to receive revelation for the entire church. Materials published by the church May have mentioned it but most have been quoting President Kimball or have no direct link to who said it. I challenge you to find a direct quote on the subject by any prophet (president) of the church in recorded history other than President Kimball. I also challenge you to find a direct quote from a current church source from Elders Peterson, Packer or McConkie. I know that all print and digital versions of Elder Packers masturbation talk have been removed from church sources and I have never found Elder Peterson’s guide to overcoming masturbation from any official church source. I have never been aware of statements on masturbation by Elder McConkie from any official church source. For those interested, the word masturbation has been said seven times in general conference in the entire church history. Self pollution zero times, self abuse zero times, pornography 413 times. The seven times masturbation has been said were in two talks. One by President Kimball and the other by Elder Featherstone. Elder Packer’s talk was completely metaphorical and therefore never said the word. Elder Scott also had a way of addressing masturbation without ever actually mentioning it.

I could post the entire article here but it would consume a lot of space. You will also remember that he said that those practicing oral sex should not enter the temple. Something that is not asked about, talked about nor do I think anyone even thinks about these days. I believe he was just as much opposed to oral sex as he was masturbation. However instead of calling it a rather common indiscretion he called it an unholy and impure practice.

My point is that the only prophet in recorded history to speak out against masturbation called it a rather common indiscretion. He was opposed to it but he called it an indiscretion. in·dis·cre·tion ˌindəˈskreSH(ə)n/ noun behavior or speech that is indiscreet or displays a lack of good judgment. "he knew himself all too prone to indiscretion" synonyms: imprudence, injudiciousness, incaution, irresponsibility; carelessness, rashness, recklessness, impulsiveness, foolhardiness, foolishness, folly; tactlessness, thoughtlessness, insensitivity; humorousfoot-in-mouth disease "he was prone to indiscretion" blunder, lapse, gaffe, mistake, faux pas, error, slip, impropriety; misdemeanor, transgression, peccadillo, solecism, misdeed; informalslip-up "his past indiscretions"

The point I was trying to make is that he called it a rather common indrescretion not a horrendous sin. He didn’t say it was okay. in·dis·cre·lion ˌindəˈskreSH(ə)n/ noun behavior or speech that is indiscreet or displays a lack of good judgment. "he knew himself all too prone to indiscretion" synonyms: imprudence, injudiciousness, incaution, irresponsibility; carelessness, rashness, recklessness, impulsiveness, foolhardiness, foolishness, folly; tactlessness, thoughtlessness, insensitivity; humorousfoot-in-mouth disease "he was prone to indiscretion" blunder, lapse, gaffe, mistake, faux pas, error, slip, impropriety; misdemeanor, transgression, peccadillo, solecism, misdeed; informalslip-up "his past indiscretions" He did not say indiscretion to avoid the use of the word masturbation. Here is the complete sentence. “Masturbation, a rather common indiscretion, is not approved of the Lord nor of his church, regardless of what may have been said by others whose “norms” are lower. Latter-day Saints are urged to avoid this practice.”

I believe there are too many members who blow the seriousness of masturbation way out of proportion to the actual seriousness of the matter. Even President Kimball, one of its most outspoken critics called it a “rather common indiscretion”.

I like that.