marge

This extra level of reporting responsibility is giving me Dan Andrews vibes, can I ask what state you're in? Edit to add, upon reading the entire thread (which I probably should have done in the first place!) it appears you're in the NT somewhere, I lived in Darwin city for a few years, I loved it. See you in the NT

I have a son and this was a super hard decision to make. I got it done at the hospital when he was 5 days old because if I left the hospital without it being done the medical guidelines were to not do it until he was 6 months old. I do think there was religious aspect to my decision making, call it hedging your bets I guess lol

I didn't mean to be dismissive at all, its just different ways of doing things.

lol fun times right! I'm not a former catholic, I did step away for a while and had a crisis of faith, looked at a lot of other belief systems but I went back to Catholicism in the end. I like to find the similarities in religious beliefs. I think every denomination is just doing their best and fully believe in what they are doing. I should update my profile so it says that

I agree, st vincent de paul do both those things as well. I think I might be confused by what you mean by charity. In my faith charity is when a person loves God above all things for his own sake and loves others for God's sake. Its not about giving necessarily (although giving obviously comes from it) but about love.

I'm in Australia, we dont have food stamps here, but everyone who isnt working is eligible for unemployment benefits, its not enough to live off and people often run out of food and struggle to survive, my church has soup kitchens where anyone who needs a hot meal can go, services are struggling to keep up with the demand at the moment with the current financial crisis. St Vincent De Paul will go over finances with people for bill payments, but never for food, I guess they think people that down their luck having to beg for food don't need further trauma. A lot of them are mothers who can't feed their children due to drug habits, its so sad But at least those children will get to eat something. If they were asked a million questions as to why they are there asking for food they wouldn't come back.

I guess every church has a different view on how they practice charity, each to their own

Interesting! 24 hours with no water is so hard core. Technically our fasts are you can have two snacks that put together would not make a complete meal. No meat, and its only mandatory on Ash Wednesday and Fridays during lent. But many people do Wednesday and Friday every week and go without all food, but still drink water (I do water on Fridays, not that great at Wednesdays yet!). We do it out of reverence for Jesus and offer up our 'suffering' it causes to God to come closer to him and work on the virtue of fasting. I guess our version of the bishops storehouse is St Vincent De Paul, anyone can go and get food or clothes, or they will deliver it to you if you can't get there, pay utility bills, fuel cards, help with teaching budgeting, housing applications that sort of thing. I didn't know the Bishops storehouse was for everyone, that's awesome, I got the impression it was just for struggling LDS and you had to sit an interview with the bishop first?

I don't know the LDS law of fasting or blessings associated with it. But I did grow up with fasting as a big part of my religion. I still fast every Friday and sometimes Wednesday as well. We don't have any money offerings associated with it though.

Such an interesting question! I also think about why the Jews don't recognise Jesus as their Messiah, I mean they were there, its their prophesies that foretell the coming of the messiah, yet they 100% believe it's not Jesus.

I don't know what Catholics are going with “go ahead and get all your sins out now”, just because you go to confession and are forgiven, you still have to pay for it. Kinda like if Jonny's ball breaks the next door neighbours window, says sorry, apology is accepted - but the window is still broken and needs to be paid for to be fixed. That's a very basic description of purgatory. A state where you are purified so you can enter heaven. Every time a Catholic sins, they're racking up time in purgatory (like spiritual detention lol). You need to do penance here on earth and if its not enough (its never enough lol), purgatory. I'd say the “go ahead and get all your sins out now” is more a protestant thing, they got rid of purgatory (and the scriptures that support it) so their theology is 'once saved always saved' no matter what you do, Catholics on the other hand pay eternally for their sins, you don't get away with anything lol. Are you talking about Fat Tuesday lol? The original Mardi Gras before it was an LGBTQ+ event. Shrove Tuesday (also known as Fat Tuesday, which means Mardi Gras) is the day before Ash Wednesday, which is the start of the Lenten Season, a time of fasting and penance to grow closer to Christ in preparation for Easter. There's a lot of rules in Lent as to what you can and can't eat/do/etc so on Shove Tuesday you eat all the good things in the house because you can't eat them in Lent and people couldn't afford to waste food (well shouldn't eat them, and should follow lent rules). Back in the day the whole town used to get involved because it was almost impossible to eat all the food on your own, so it turned into a group event, a big feast, to make sure the food wasn't thrown out. Now we have freezers and supermarkets lol so it's basically turned into 'Pancake Tuesday'. Most catholics have pancakes and a really rich cake and fattening food, because we can't eat it again until Easter Sunday. Some cultures still really party on Shrove Tuesday. But this day is certainly not an excuse to sin at all, and those who are using it to do that are acting against Catholic teaching. I think the LDS church is better at keeping their members together and making sure they are following the rules, where as Catholics either follow them or they don't, its a personal choice. I also think the LDS church is better at making sure members know all the rules, some Catholics don't even know their own faith let alone live it. But they are making choices that will cause them to lose their salvation. I know plenty of catholics who use contraception for example, massive mortal sin, straight to hell deal, but they do it and still go to church. But that's not my business and not my place to judge them. I'd never say anything to them about it (and some of them are really close friends of mine) No one openly talks about those who chose to leave or stay and not follow the rules, to be honest most of us wouldn't even know. Of course a loss of a member is sad, but all we can do is live our faith to be a good example and pray for them. Their salvation is their business. The Church does run a lot of apologetics and information sessions, retreats etc to deepen faith, bring back those who have fallen away BUT they have to want to go, it has to be their choice, we don't actively chase them up so to speak. There are Catholic ministries that do go door to door but they are very few. There does need to be more. Both approaches have positives and negatives, but witnessing both cultures in action, I do think the LDS culture can be all consuming and overwhelming and it really does feel very 'public', I guess Catholicism puts more emphasis on the person choosing to do the right thing on their own, 'here's the deal, follow it or don't its up to you, you have free will, use it wisely' there is no one checking up on them and you wouldn't know looking in the pews as to who's doing the wrong thing. It's a very private faith.

You must be referring to easter and Christmas catholics lol. Seriously though Catholicism can definitely rival the LDS church with the amount of rules you have to follow (when I was looking at the LDS church I found it to have less rules than Catholicism) I think the big difference, and this is just my perspective having attended both denominations, is the LDS faith seems very public where as the Catholic faith is very private. In the LDS church your salvation status is very much 'on view' to the rest of the members. If you don't take the sacrament or you can't speak in church you're obviously in some sort of trouble. A temple wedding and if you can even attend as a guest is another example or your salvation being 'on show'. Even the temple recommend itself I guess is too. In the Catholic Church as long as you get to confession on Saturday you are good to have the Eucharist at Sunday Mass. And even if you don't go to communion, no one says or thinks anything about it. It's not 'clicky' like the LDS church, you're there to worship God not make friends, not to say that there aren't activities and study groups, there is, if you want to be involved. There's also no 'callings' - I mean people volunteer for things but its not expected. I think the callings also create a 'status' type thing in the LDS church. I don't know how bishops find the time, its a huge sacrifice, to work full-time, be a husband and father and a bishop too. Hats off to them, its amazing. A Catholic priest has a University degree in theology and nothing else to do except look after his parish. I think protestants do believe in works they just don't want to admit it lol they like to think its 'I'm changed by grace and that's why I do good works' its just a different motivation for doing the same thing.

Ok now I have to study for the next year 😂. Seriously though, thank you for such a detailed response, you've given me a lot to look up and research. I think you are a very interesting and obviously very intelligent person.

Thank you for such a kind christlike response, I really appreciate it. I don't get into Pentecostal beliefs, not really my thing at all. It was a strong feeling, an uncomfortable feeling, along with a knowing and almost like someone was talking to me in my head, while I was praying, it left a very strong impression. I had it happen several times, I tried to ignore it because I was so in love with the LDS church and way of life. Maybe I'll get a different answer one day, maybe it was the adversary trying to stop me, I don't know. Again, thank you for being so kind

Serious question for those reading who are LDS. If it wasn't the Holy Ghost then who was it? Do you think it was an evil spirit or a demon? Why would they be so clear? Serious question, not trying to be argumentative or anything.

I'm not playing a victim, I'm not playing anything, I've answered the same question over and over and keep being told I'm wrong and the Holy Ghost didn't communicate with me, something you can't possibly know yet insist is what happened to me, even though you weren't there. If you insist on it being so black and white then I guess you're right, one of us must be wrong.

You're super interesting to talk too! I think I kinda answered this in the last page, but this thread has gotten a bit crazy so I'll put it here again and try to elaborate as best I can for you. I don't think the bible has to be perfect to be the word of God, men wrote it down so its not going to be perfect, its going to be written from their point of view to a certain extent. It's also going to be their perspective on things they can't understand. I think a lot of stories in the bible (old testament more than new) were passed down verbally for a long time before they were written down. There are different versions of the same stories throughout the world, everyone has a flood story, giant stories, creation story, first human stories, and there are similarities in them all, some stronger than others, and a lot of them older than the bible. I think people wrote down with sincerity what they saw, what was passed down by verbal knowledge for probably 1000s of years, and what they felt guided by God to record. I think it's better to compare it to a child looking at something they can't possibly understand and trying to explain it. A child's description of seeing a rocket ship take off would be a lot different to yours or my version of the same story. Read Ezekiel for example (or Genesis creation story), they are trying to explain something they don't understand. So I can't take it all literally, but that doesn't mean there's no truth in it or that it's not what they saw, or that its not divinely inspired by God. I think the bible is a record of people trying their best to explain something they don't (and can't) truely understand with Gods guidance. That doesn't make it not the inspired word of God. I have prayed about whether the bible is true or not, in very much the same way I prayed about the BOM. The bible, especially the old testament, has been held as sacred scripture for 1000s of years. It is accepted by Jews and Christians as scared scripture. The dead see scrolls add to the evidence by showing that the bible says today what it said 1000s of years ago.

I didn't say you said I wasn't a Christian, I was simply stating not believing in the book of mormon doesn't make me more or less of a Christian than you are. I didn't put any words in anyone's mouth. The issue I have here is that the only answer an LDS person will accept to Moroni's promise to know if the Book of Mormon is the word of God is the one they themselves agree with. If I don't come to that conclusion then apparently it wasn't the Holy Ghost? The Holy Ghost is a testator of truth, but only your version of it? And you are using scripture from the very book I'm praying about to know if its scripture as evidence of that? Thats circular reasoning. Interesting. For the record I really did want it to be true for me, I love the LDS church and the life you live being part of it. I did not come to my answer through anything other than the witness of the Holy Ghost I told you about, but according to most of you, that couldn't have been the Holy Ghost at all. I hope I am still welcome to stay here on the forums, but I can't deny the spiritual experience I had, just as you can't deny yours. I would never tell you yours was the wrong answer or not the Holy Ghost or not a valid experience though.

I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, I believe in the Holy Ghost, I believe the bible is the word of God. My answer that book of mormon isn't true, that doesn't make me not a Christian, that doesn't make you more of a Christian than me. I believe Gods words, we just have a different witness of where to find those words. The Holy Ghost gave me a different answer than he gave you. But to assume that I did not receive my answer from the Holy Ghost because I got an answer you can't accept. I think that's really naive.

I'm not a universalist I was just responding to something Anddenex said where she seemed to discount a Hindu's experience and perspective, i would not discount anyones spiritual experience or just assume its wrong because its different to mine, that does not mean I do not have strength and conviction in my own beliefs. That does not mean I believe in any of those religions and has nothing at all to do with my witness that the book of mormon was not true or somehow invalidates that witness. I believe all people who belong to a religion believe that their religion is right (otherwise why would they join it), and who am I to tell them that they are not? Who are any of us to discount every religion on earth as wrong except the one we believe in? What makes us right and them wrong? I believe in Jesus, I believe the bible to be the word of God, (the abrahamic God) but the Hindu believes in Vishnu just as passionately and holds the Vedas as scripture.

You see I would not discount the Hindu's experience as misinformed, or assume they did something wrong. What makes your spiritual experiences any greater than theirs? What makes the Hindu or the Buddhist or the Jew wrong? Why is it so hard to accept their experience as genuine? Or that you might be wrong? Only one third of the world is Christian, and Christianity only spread as far as it did at the tip of a sword. I don't think we can ever know for certain that we are right in our belief system. Socrates once said ' I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is I know nothing'

My witness was that the book of mormon is not true, that the LDS church is a good organisation of well meaning people but unfortunately it was built upon a book that was not the word of God. I received the same witness numerous times over a period of 18 months, I ignored it for a long time because I wanted to join the LDS church. I was heartbroken. I wanted an eternal family and I thought the LDS church was the only way to achieve that. I have found a lot comfort in realising that eternal christian marriage was first taught by Emanual Swedenborg in the early 1700s. Also there are a lot of much older pagan religions that believe in eternal marriage as well.

I followed all these conditions as well as embracing the church and its teachings, read the book of mormon everyday, followed the WoW, FHE, regular church attendance, gospel principles lessons, Come follow me, read the pearl of great price, prayed a lot. I really tried and I was very sincere, I wanted it to be true, I was actually really upset when I finally accepted I was being told 'No'. I did everything right. Please don't take my no answer as insincerity or lack of faith, or lack of dedication. It was none of those things at all. I was told no, just as you were told yes. That doesn't make either of us bad people, or either of us wrong or right. I still have great respect for the LDS church, its members and its focus on family.

You seem completely unwilling to hear mine, and are in fact dismissing my experience as wrong and claiming yours is right, yet both of us got our answers from the same source. I also have great confidence in God and the guidance he gives me. I was a very sincere investigator of this church, I devoted two years of my life to it, and my answer was no, its not true. Does that mean I don't see value in the church, of course not. Does that mean I call all those who believe it to be true wrong or misinformed, and that only my answer is the correct one? Of course not, that would be arrogant, rude and narrow minded. I do find it extremely off-putting when I hear members basically say 'I'm right, you're wrong, you must have missed something, you weren't sincere enough, you did something wrong'. You can say 'I know it's true' all day long, it doesn't make it so for everyone. Perhaps my view will change in time, perhaps yours will. But I wouldn't ever call someone else's beliefs wrong because they decided after two years of investigation not to join my chosen religion.

With regards to the lifespan of early biblical figures, God for some reason decided that living that long was a bad move so he cut it down to 120 years (I find it super interesting that the maximum lifespan for humans is 120 - I think there was one person who lived until 122) A lot of Genesis is focussed on Genetics, kill the giants, wipe out this city etc etc. Maybe that's why there was a flood in the first place, to wipe out the bad genetics? (Genesis 6:4 for example produced abominable offspring in the eyes of God). I don't know but I'll be sure to ask when I get to heaven 😂 I think people wrote down with sincerity what they saw, what was passed down by verbal knowledge for probably 1000s of years, and what they felt guided by God to record. I think it's better to compare it to a child looking at something they can't possibly understand and trying to explain it. A child's description of seeing a rocket ship take off would be a lot different to yours or my version of the same story. I think the bible is a record of people trying their best to explain something they don't (and can't) truely understand with Gods guidance. That doesn't make it not the word of God.