dibster

Members
  • Content Count

    17
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  1. dibster

    Purpose?

    ok....you thrown some out there....now what..... I guess the idea is we discuss Christian beliefs. Any takers??? Thanks for the welcome Maureen!
  2. dibster

    Spencer Kimball's Teachings

    "Hey dib-meister, might wanna' stop being such a doctrinal pseud. The first rule of holes is: When you're in one, stop digging. " Thanks so much for sharing your insight and wisdom!
  3. dibster

    Hard To Have Faith...

    How do we apply to saving grace of Jesus Christ to ourselves? How do we lay hold upon the enabling power of Christ's Atonement? How does God change us, change our very hearts, so that we have no more desire to sin? What must we do so that Christ will save us from our sins? You know, I am not sure I am too equipped to respond to your post, partly because it seems quite a personal struggle. Hopefully the writings of Paul below might give you some hope and courage. I encourage you to pray about these verses and ponder them in your heart, be strong and let God's Word fill you with hope. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us" Romans 5:1-5 Interestingly, Paul also struggled with personal sin, even though he knew how wrong it was, and had been supremely blessed by God. He could see this dichotomy in himself and wrote about it in Romans 7. What I love above all about this quote is that despite feeling wretched in himself, Paul still knows he must thank God, and put Him first. "I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 7:22-25 God promises to remain faithful to those who have accepted Him and trust in Him. When we trust in ourselves to overcome our weaknesses or to go our own way, we will not get far. God wants to work in us, and we have to give our will to Him to do that. This must be the hardest thing in the world to do!!! Just to focus on this one for a moment: What must we do so that Christ will save us from our sins? Jesus made that very clear in in John 3:16. The hard part to understand is that whilst we will not stop sinning overnight, we can be assured we will not be punished for our sins, since we have accepted Christ suffering and dying in our place. With Jesus then as our Saviour, He can open our hearts to let Him work in our lives to change us, but it is an ongoing process, no-one stops sinning overnight. It requires our openness to God's will and desire in our lives. I pray He will work in yours. PS My views are not LDS and I am not LDS, though I used to be, so the answers others give may well be very different to mine.
  4. dibster

    Purpose?

    What is the purpose of this board?
  5. dibster

    Purpose?

    If only the Comma Johanneum wasn't added into the text around 1522 CE and was actually in the original New Testament. So much for not adding to the word of G-d. Hmmm, three letters for you Doctor Steuss: J.S.T. Let's also try this again: Why are there no posts here? What is the purpose of this board?
  6. dibster

    Spencer Kimball's Teachings

    "BTW, stick to your own doctrinal beliefs as your understanding of LDS doctrine is abysmal." Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but I would beg to differ. (can't help feeling you'll take that as an invitation to test me!! ha ha!) I'm happy sticking with the Bible for my doctrinal beliefs, thanks.
  7. dibster

    Favourite Scripture(s)

    1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV) Just for fun
  8. dibster

    Purpose?

    Why are there no posts here? What is the purpose of this board? Seeing as it's called Christian Beliefs, let me throw some out here: There is one God: "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me" Isaiah 46:9 God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1); "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" (1 John 5:7) Christians are called to love God and their neighbour: " Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment." Matthew 22:36-38 God saves those have faith and believe in him: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16; "O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful" Psalm 31:23 Our faith and faithfulness are from God and are for His praise: "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" Hebrews 12:2 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. " Ephesians 2:8-9
  9. dibster

    Spencer Kimball's Teachings

    This is all pretty good fun. I have to say, if I were to address all the reponses here I'd never get away from my computer! Instead let me make some general points: - Firstly, some responses seem to be avoiding the issue a lot. I'm simply being labelled 'anti' or just quoting from my 'anti-book', or I'm accused of not having read any of this stuff and just picking out individual verses instead. - I think it's disappointing that I'm getting that reaction, since none of you really know me, and you are also deflecting from the question when you spend time saying that stuff. I have read and studied the Book of Mormon, I have even prayed about it - but I never got a testimony of it. - To the person who tried to minimize the importance of "The Miracle of Forgiveness" by saying that it was written well before Kimball became president of the church, why then do LDS teaching materials use it for references if it isn't important? - I'm not 'spewing' any kind of 'garbage', I'm just quoting LDS sources, not ranting off the top of my head. Also I haven't mentioned hell once, so I don't know why that was brought up. - Did anyone in the Bible ever refer to the 'land of Jerusalem'? How can the Book of Mormon be the most correct book ever written if it gives Jesus' place of birth as a different city from the real one? - To me, one of the clearest indications that the LDS don't worship the Jesus of the Bible, is that in the Bible Jesus is eternal: "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2 whereas LDS belief is that Jesus progressed to his status as 'a god', and was therefore once a man. This means he could not also be eternal, since men are creations. Jesus has always been God, as the Bible explains: " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 - I find it noteworthy that after my very lengthy post on the theme of the thread (essentially Grace vs. Works), no-one has addressed any of the points I made on that theme. I don't mind discussing more than one issue with people, but it's pretty hard to keep track of everything if several issues are all on the same thread.
  10. dibster

    Spencer Kimball's Teachings

    As opposed to what? The nebulous self-contradictory cloud of Greek philosophy that post 4th Century "Christians" have taught on the subject? (See, I can engage in worthless [and baseless] polemics too.) This "different Jesus" crap is just that... crap. It is an intellectually dishonest polemic. Quantitatively, the "LDS Jesus" and the "Jesus of the Bible" are ONE IN THE SAME. The "Catholic Jesus" is the same Jesus as the "Lutheran Jesus" and the "Evangelical Jesus" and the "LDS Jesus." Qualitative differences do not equate to quantitative differences; no matter how much one wishes to misconstrue, quote-mine, or wrestle scripture. You ask "Please don't take it as me being disrespectful," and then go on to try to copyright Christ. IMO, that is quite disrespectful. It is akin to the xenophobes I deal with on anti-Mormon sites that refer to "the LDS god." OK, let's see the Book of Mormon then: "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem" Alma 7:10. The Jesus I worship wasn't born in Jerusalem, He was born in Bethlehem. (Matthew 2:1 "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem...") One person cannot be born in two places, so it is quite clear that there must be two different "Jesuses".
  11. dibster

    Spencer Kimball's Teachings

    Thanks for your response Isaac, it is much appreciated. I'd like to pick up on just a few points in order to keep this thread relatively manageable in size. Please don't take it as me being disrespectful. :) "Mormons are well aquainted with biblical teachings on the subject, so I wouldn't knock yourself out trying to convince us that we don't need to keep the commandments of our Lord. We do. Period. When we don't, we are to repent. Period. Jesus himself is very clear on that subject so I suggest you read the Gospels again and see what he says about repentence and keeping the commandments and stop listening to your preachers interpretation, or ignoring the scriptures that say you need to keep the commandments. " I don't feel obliged to agree 100% with anyone preaching in my church, it is God and His word I've accepted, not that of any preacher. The Bible certainly does say we must repent and keep the commandments, of course, and I agree entirely. Yet if God has promised us eternal life, he does not change his mind (this is also in the Bible). God does not break his promises. Eternal means eternal, there aren't exceptions to this mentioned in the Bible. "Mormons certainly are not going to go to hell for accepting Christs sacrifice for our sins, repenting throughout our lives, and striving to keep his commandments..." Are we talking about the same Jesus here? I'm not sure we are if you go by all the LDS leaders have taught on the subject, and therefore I'm not sure I can agree with you on this. "This is the point I was making with one exception...Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses and relieved mens responsibilty of keeping the law of "ordinances and performances" such as sacrificing animals to atone for ones sins, etc...but that does not mean he absolved us of our responsibilities in repenting of our sins...i.e. asking for forgiveness etc... The sacrifice has now been made for us by Christ. He fulfilled the law of sacrifice by the shedding of his perfect blood...He shed his blood for me and you, for every sin we have and will commit and his grace is freely given but we have to accept it...we accept it by acknowledging our faults before God and repenting of them. That is not something we do once...we do it throughout our lives, and is part of what is meant by "abiding in him"." Hmm. The way I would explain it is that, when we turn to Christ and believe, we are accepted by Christ, he saves us there and then and we are adopted into His family. (see Ephesians 1) We become heirs to His glory "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. " (from Romans 8) It is a perfectly normal thing for a loving God to share His glory with those He has brought into His family. "You said nothing to answer whether or not the guy who said he could murder us and still go to heaven is actually right or wrong...you do what most people in your camp do which is say maybe he really was not saved to begin with since noone who is saved would ever do such a thing..." They quite rightly say maybe since they are not the one to decide on the condition of another's faith. God knows those whom He has chosen, how could I possibly know, or be in a position to judge? What must a Mormon do to be saved? Can Mormons tell whether or not they are saved? "So is it not possible in your mind to fall from grace?" No, if God says in the Bible "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Then that means Eternal. Jesus died once for all " now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. " Hebrews 9 You either accept that sacrifice or you don't. Repentance is still of the utmost importance (see below), however you need only ACCEPT the free gift of salvation through Christ's eternal sacrifice once. You don't need to 're-accept' it over and over again. "Can't an honest true converted Christian, through a series of bad choices, seperate himself from God's grace by commiting such a heinous crime of UNREPENTED murder?" He or she could separate themselves from God's presence or fellowship or guidance, which is hardly surprising because how else would they bring themselves to do such a thing in the first place?! However, Jesus promises not to forsake those he has chosen. He keeps His promises and I trust Him to do that, even though the individual in question would CERTAINLY need to do some repenting in order to regain fellowship with God and to re-enter communion with the Holy Spirit. "In your mind, does he not have to go before God and confess his crimes in order to be forgiven and allow Christ's blood to wash the sin away? " If this person has already accpeted Jesus as his Lord and Saviour, then his sins were washed away then and there. The washing doesn't happen over and over again, otherwise Eternal life keeps stopping and starting between 'repentances'. That would be making salvation dependent on our act of repentance, not on God's act of love and the promise He made when he gave the gift of Eternal salvation. It would be like saying God is BOUND to save me, again, because I have repented, again. This would imply we have control over our salvation, but we don't, God does, and He made it simple: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. " God gives us our faith and our salvation, it is His gift. We have nothing without God's granting it. The theoretical person in question must repent if he or she desires to re-build his relationship with His Lord, and if he or she were once in such a relationship I am sure at some point that such a desire would be there, since their rememberance of such a wonderful experience, and their remorse, would surely prompt them to repentance. "Or can he simply say, "Wow, I really screwed up here, good thing I got saved and followed Jesus all those years cuz now I'm a murderer. At least I'm saved in the kingdom." Is there no way to sink yourself to hell once you have been saved? No crime, no vicious act? " Let me turn this on its head. God says you believe me, accept me as Lord, turn to me and renounce sin and I promise that you will be mine eternally, in my family. But then, upon certain conditions that were never in the original promise He says, er, actually I no longer want you in my family, you will never be with me again. That doesn't sound to me either like a God who keeps His promises, or like a truly loving Father in Heaven. If parents on earth can keep themselves from permanently disowning children who commit serious sins, how much more is God able to continue to love and keep those he has chosen in His family! "Since I do not have my scriptures with me, I pilfered this one from a post above...hahah James 2:14-24 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Remember he was speaking to converted and baptized Christians in these versus here...He refers to their fellow Christians as "brothers and sisters"...a common term used in the early Christian church....So if your faith is dead because you do not work, what does "dead" mean? A new kind of living? The faith necessary to save him has died because he refused to work...that is the relationship here..." The point being made here is that one who claims to have faith but can not prove it, does not truly have faith. Loving your neighbour is an outward manifestation of the inner reality of faith. It is this inner faith in the sacrifice of Jesus that saves, not the actions. The actions of faith are the fruits of it. If I have faith but can't prove it by acting faithfully, you could quite rightly call me a liar. "Look at the parable of the sheep and the goats taught by our Lord...Who are the goats? They believed in the Lord and refered to him in that way and yet they are the ones who did not visit those in prison, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, administer to the sick etc...in other words those who did not work! What is the fate of those who call him Lord (in this story), who knew him and yet did not see HIM in their fellow man...They were sorted to the left hand of God and cast out! " Did these people have faith? Apparently not since there was nothing there that could prove it! If they had had faith, acts of love would have followed. John 13:35 - "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another"
  12. dibster

    Spencer Kimball's Teachings

    Doesn't the Bible say, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9? The true meaning of this scripture is that "we are all saved through faith in Christ and not by our own hand as we cannot save ourselves".....it is a gift from God....and no "man" can save himself or should boast that he can. It does not mean we should not follow the command of God to serve our neighbor and do good "works" upon the earth and to make sacred covenants with Him through the ordinances of the Gospel. - So you agree then that our actions don't save us, faith in Christ, which is a gift from God, saves us? Also: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. " John 3:16-18 And where pray tell does President Kimball say this scripture is untrue? Yes it's true...through faith in Jesus Chist and the saving Ordinances of the Gospel (works) one can have eternal life. - The scripture makes no reference to the saving ordinances of the gospel, only belief. I can quote scripture all day long showing the value of "works" in justifying faith in regards to being saved... James 2:14-24 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - This scripture is a fantastic example of how Christians are told to prove their claim of faith by their actions. How can one claim to have faith in God, yet not show love his neighbour? Loving actions and works are the outward sign of an inward reality: a changed nature brought about by God's grace. Our works are how we back up our claims, yet the Bible clearly states that we were saved whilst dead in sin, not once we'd done some works to earn salvation. James is teaching that we can justify our claims to others through demonstrating a changed nature by good deeds. The good deeds are therefore a result of being saved and not the cause. And now a question for you: Why is it so hard for you to believe that the Lord leads and guides His church in these days? And that further light and knowledge of the Gospel has been given to man in these latter days?? You actually think God has stopped guiding his children as he did in the past? You don't suppose He restored the Gospel to the Earth in it's fullest because precious parts of it were lost and some simple truths were twisted by man? Could it be you deny the truth because you haven't really searched for it? You take the word of some preacher or some anti-Mormon literature? Try reading the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants with and open heart and mind....then go to the source and humble yourself and ask God whether these things are not true.....or are you too afraid to? Gonna listen to your Minister/Preacher/Priest or your Father in Heaven? You will never know the truth until you sincerely search for it and then ask God to make manifest the truth to you. Don't trust some preacher who's hellbent on keeping you in his congregation...remember he needs your offerings for his living. I'd be quite happy to answer these questions on a new thread, but this thread is on a different topic so I'd prefer to keep this one on track. Thanks :)
  13. dibster

    Spencer Kimball's Teachings

    Rather than blast you personally like everyone else, I'll simply answer your question that if you believe that all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, and that you have no further responsibility to keep the commandments(which was Spencer W. Kimball's point), then you do not believe the Bible... - Thanks for actually engaging with the question :-) The Bible does actually teach that you are saved before you have done any 'works' necessary for salvation: "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:13-15 and also: "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:4-7 These two quotations make it clear that Christ saves, determines the Eternal destiny of believers while they are yet 'dead in sins'. It was Jesus who did this, not those who were dead in sins. You cannot understand the role of Grace and Works by quoting a few scriptures from the Apostle Paul in which he is reprimanding Christians for not accepting grace and believing they still had to keep THE LAW OF MOSES(which was an entirely new concept they had innitially accepted, but that Paul had to reinforce). - Paul does teach that the law of Moses has been fulfilled in Christ. It was fulfilled because Jesus kept the Law and as such was the only sacrifice 'without blemish' that would be acceptable as a propitiation for our sins. Thus Paul was teaching that we can only be saved by putting our total trust and faith in Him and His acceptable sacrifice. I believe Jesus on this subject: "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man should lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends if ye do whatsoever I command you." Jesus did indeed teach them this, but there are numerous examples of where Jesus taught that people's faith had saved them, not actions. People will then recognise these people as his disciples by their actions, as is taught in Hebrews, and James. Kinda sounds like in order to make the sacrifice of our Lord effective in our lives we not only need to BELIEVE but we also need to keep his commands...It is a covenant relationship in which his Grace satisfies the demands of Gods Justice for violation of eternal law...Our part in that covenant is to do our best (not just believe alone) and when we fall short, we repent. - I don't see the Bible teaching that we must do our best in order to be saved. It repeatedly talks about salvation through faith and not works. That is what Kimball (Have you even read his book from which you so liberally quote, or did you just copy someone elses quote from his book? I have read his book and am currently reading it again right now.)was saying, and it is absolutely what Jesus and the Bible (in countless places) teaches. - I would like to see one or two places where Jesus teaches that we must do our best in order to be saved. The New Testament teaches the covenant relationship and you need to take all scriptures on the subject into account, including their context...It is an absolute lie of the devil that ALL we have to do is accept Jesus and we are saved. - Please show me then from the Bible that we are saved through a covenant relationship in which we must try our best and have repented of all outstanding sins. On my mission in Texas, I encountered a man (happened to be Southern Baptist) who said he could murder me and my companion, and then shoot himself and he would still go to heaven because he was saved by Grace...He even held up his Bible and said he did not even need this anymore, and threw it across the yard...Granted he was a bit extreme and animated, but is that the camp your in? Do you believe you can you do whatever you want now that your "saved" and still go to heaven? I hope not. - When we are saved, we are called to produce works to demonstrate our faith. As pointed out in James, and also here: "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more." 1 Thessalonians 4:1. God promises to save those who believe (see John 3) and he does not go back on His promises. 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17 sums this up fantastically: "Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." Firstly it confirms that we have everlasting consolation and good hope through grace. If Jesus' promises could be perpetually revoked then reinstated as He seemed fit we could not have such consolation and hope. Secondly, the writer (Paul) asks God to 'stablish in you every good word and work'. He is thus acknowledging both the importance of doing good work, and also that this comes from God Himself, it is not ours to boast about. My point is that God can forgive all sin, and will keep his promises, and also that we are expected to present works that demonstrate that we have been saved. Therefore you could question the heart of someone claiming that it is of no importance whether or not he kills someone. That would not be a reflection of the love God had shown that individual through saving him. -Don't forget that "neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39
  14. dibster

    Spencer Kimball's Teachings

    You think it is a sensible question to ask whether President Kimball who belived and taught that the bible was the Word of God also believe that the Word of God originated with the devil. Obviously you think we're morons but I can tell you that this adolescent type of question has been posed hundreds or time. It was just as dumb the first time as it is this time. I haven't called anyone a moron, but you have referred to my comments as "dumb", "dufus" and "adolescent". The reason I think my question is sensible, is because Spencer Kimball said that, teaching that belief in Jesus is all that is necessary for salvation, was an idea originated by Satan; yet this teaching can be found in the Bible on numerous occasions. So I was wondering what Kimball thought about those words that I quoted. He seems to be saying in "The Miracle of Forgiveness" that they come from Satan.
  15. dibster

    Spencer Kimball's Teachings

    Sheeze - if you are going to be a troll - at least try and be clever, or subtle, or intelligent or something. Since you're guilty of making making a dufus post, here's your assignment: Post 10 biblical scriptures that say that salvation does not come about purely as matter of grace through faith alone. Not sure what a troll is, except in kids' stories, and I'd like to think I'm a little more handsome! Seriously though, I asked a sensible question, quoting Spencer W Kimball and the Bible on the 'gospel discussion' board so I don't think I've done anything wrong. I guess I'll ask the question again to see if someone will answer: "So was Kimball saying that these biblical teachings were originated by Satan and are not God's word?"