LineUponLine

I suppose anytime someone witnessed concourses of angels singing around the throne of God or to the shepherds there were probably some female sopranos and altos participating.

In regards to shortening, think about the speed by which technology has helped us. Without the speed of travel, communication, technology and databases, etc... how long would it have taken to build the temples we need, spread the gospel throughout all the world, and find, complete, and maintain all the work for the dead. Technology (inspired by revelation) has surely shortened how much time we need to accomplish many tasks the Lord needs us to accomplish.

If they had repented, then sure, they could be in the Celestial Kingdom and I would rejoice. However if they hadn't repented then they wouldn't be there and I would be sad that they didn't follow the counsel of the prophets.

Struggled with it. Sure. Acting on it. Nope. It goes against Celestial Law. I believe the atonement will make right everything, including LGBTQ+ struggles.

Mosiah 3:19: “For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint. I haven't read everything that has been said on the matter in this thread but when I think of the Celestial Kingdom I don't see anyone LGBTQ+ and I think the points in The Family A Proclamation to the World will be very evident. Sex AND Gender have a place in the eternities and they have purpose. I think there will be some variety in personality, I don't think we will all be identical and robotic, fitting a mold where everyone acts exactly the same way, but we will be living a set Celestial (and Terrestrial and Telestial respectively) law which will not permit that which would make other Celestial beings uncomfortable. We live in a world where support and love have to equal the same thing. Our Heavenly Father loves each child, regardless of their LGBTQ+ identity, but that does not mean that he supports their behaviors. For example, I can't see Heavenly Father present at a Gay/Lesbian wedding for his children, and if he was forced to (which is impossible) he would be weeping because he knows that what he is witnessing is preventing his children from obtaining exaltation. Maybe I've gone a little off topic of simply the effeminate behaviors of men that makes some people uncomfortable, but again, I think if someone is putting off the natural man (the worldly, the confused, the misguided, the experimental, etc...) then a Saint probably would not make other Saints uncomfortable.

I found this in the Ensign from August 2002: Of the Savior’s words that no man knows the day or the hour of the coming of the Son of Man (see Matt. 24:36), the Prophet asked: “Did Christ speak this as a general principle throughout all generations? Oh, no, He spoke in the present tense. No man that was then living upon the footstool of God knew the day or the hour. But He did not say that there was no man throughout all generations that should not know the day or the hour. No, for this would be in flat contradiction with other scripture. For the prophet says that God will do nothing but what He will reveal unto His servants the prophets. Consequently, if it is not made known to the prophets, it will not come to pass.”12 Thoughts? Is the prophet the only one that will have the date revealed to him? Or could it be more than that?

Does anyone know how many of the world's countries have been dedicated for missionary work? I know that there are some countries that are unable to receive proselyting missionaries like Israel, mainland China, and various Middle Eastern countries, but have those countries been dedicated? (I know Israel was dedicated by Orson Hyde). I'm just curious if the statement of "the gospel will be taken to all the world" means proselyting missionary work. However if it just means dedicated by a general authority for ANY church work/efforts, then the statement may be more fulfilled that originally thought.

We know that after this life all death, pain, suffering, etc. will cease. I believe that the sacrifices made in this life are evidences that we are willing to DO what is necessary and BE what is necessary to live a celestial life. If we are to one day have the same power and knowledge as God then we must prove that we are going to use that power and knowledge appropriately. To be a god means to live a certain way and as Joseph said in the lectures on faith that if God were to not live up to his characteristics and attributes to the fullest then he would cease to be God because we could no longer have sufficient faith in him. His glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. If we can't have faith in him then we cannot receive eternal life and God would cease to be glorified. As for eternal laws and how Christ was able to save us from sin and death, like Carborendum said, we cannon comprehend the mechanism of how it functions. Justice and Mercy may seem abstract, but the way they are described in scripture makes them seem somehow more like concrete powers of enforcement. Animal sacrifice is only temporary to this telestial state of being.

Two scriptures come to mind: 1 Corinthians 13:11 - When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. Hopefully we can simply mature and grow over time so that the childish, immature, and desires of the natural man diminish. This can be accomplished more and more through the small and simple things of (specific and sincere) prayer, scripture study, and temple attendance. Job 28: 28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding. The more we understand by gaining light and knowledge, the more we will depart from evil. Simply by doing those things that draw us to God we will slowly but surely become more like him in thought, word, and action.

Just as a child is dependent on his parents until he leaves home and can be self-sufficient and capable of taking care of him/herself, the same applies with our Heavenly Father. We are going to be dependent on Him for a very long time, even after death, until we have sufficiently climbed the ladder of light and truth and reached "the perfect day". Then when we have reached the same level of omnipotence and omniscience as Him, I believe we will no longer be dependent on God.

When Mahonri Moriancumr asked Jesus what to do about the darkness in the barges the Lord responded with: Ether 2:23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? I think that the Lord gives us problems that he wants us to work out and in many instances there is no right or wrong answer. Mahonri chose to get 16 stones of molten rock and have Christ touch them to light them. With God's power Mahonri could have asked for any variety of methods to light the barges, but God simply wanted Mahonri to think and act. It is also important to note that God gave Mahonri specific responses to how they would be guided on the sea and how to get fresh air. So sometimes God gives us direct instructions, other times he wants us to think and then ask him for confirmation. D&C: 58:26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is acompelled in all things, the same is a bslothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. Our Prophets sometimes have to look at current situations, think for themselves, ask God for confirmation, and then move forward. With this being the case the phrase "Thus saith the Lord..." would be incorrect because the ideas came from the prophets themselves. It would be better to say "The Lord backs me up when I say...". As for the statements concerning the righteousness/valiance of the youth today - I think things are simply moving forward as prophesied. We know that in the last days the church will be small compared to the world - yet powerful. For every individual that falls away from the church there is another individual in the church whose strength is growing. There is opposition in all things. The individual who is the only active member in their family, friend group, town, city, or even country needs to be very strong indeed to move forward with faith when everyone around them is trying to bring them down. Based on my understanding of the parable of the 10 virgins, only half of the members of the church will be ready at Christ's second coming. So regardless of HOW the General Authorities are choosing to express themselves in their talks in General Conference or elsewhere, we should know that the WHAT and WHY are from God. Honestly I think if there was too much boldness or pulpit pounding it might be counterproductive. I think there is a time for all things. Christ taught differently depending on his audience. To some it was straightforward and bold, to some it was in parables, to some it was with intense power, and to some with gentle love. In the end the message was the same: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and everyone who believes in him and obeys his gospel will be saved.

I remember hearing a general authority tell that he would meet with his bishop for tithing settlement at the end of each year, so I believe that while it may seem redundant coming from a general authority I would think they still follow the procedure to have a recommend interview with their Bishop and Stake President when needed. The simple act of declaring their worthiness is still an important rite of passage if you will. Even apostles can make errors and may need to repent of something from time to time.

I just like to think about our future potential to become as Heavenly Father. Can you imagine God being addicted to something that has a negative side effect? Obviously there are things that our body needs to be healthy. Red meat is to be eaten sparingly, therefore moderation is also needed (even water can kill you if you drink too much at one time). But I find it impossible to see God consuming something or participating in any activity that would impair his judgement or ability. God holds us accountable to the light and knowledge we have received. Do I think that we are forever condemned if we have unhealthy habits? Not necessarily, but God does want to see that we are ever improving ourselves and I believe that as we learn line upon line (including after our resurrection) we will further understand the best use for all substances and activities that will guide us to that perfect day. If we learn the most important commandment of obedience/humility, then: Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them. All weaknesses can be overcome and lead us to be like God who is perfect in every way.

One thing about faith is that it starts from someone who has full knowledge. Lectures on faith describe how that whole first millennium there was either Adam who had seen and interacted with God, or someone who knew Adam, thereby gaining faith from he who had true knowledge. Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ and therefore had true knowledge in them. So all who listened to his words were gaining faith through someone who had the truth. Now just because Joseph had this knowledge of the Father and the Son doesn't mean he didn't need faith to act according to their commands. (Polygamy for example was a difficult one for Joseph to follow, but he had the faith to follow it and now probably has a knowledge of it's eternal purpose). Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Yes, we will gain the knowledge of those things, but it won't be for any sort of personal income. We won't spend eternity as an accountant, a salesman, or a bus driver but we will use the knowledge to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man". God's glory is in having perfect knowledge and using it for creation and perfecting his creations.

From Chapter 6 of "Saints": Sometimes Joseph translated by looking through the interpreters and reading in English the characters on the plates.Often he found a single seer stone to be more convenient. He would put the seer stone in his hat, place his face into the hat to block out the light, and peer at the stone. Light from the stone would shine in the darkness, revealing words that Joseph dictated as Oliver rapidly copied them down. Just a thought, but it seems to me that in developing technology, without realizing it, the world is trying to create a type of urim and thummim or seer stone in the form of a smartphone. Instruments prepared by God to assist man in obtaining revelation and in translating languages. In the Hebrew language the words mean “lights and perfections.” (guide to the scriptures) The purpose then is to provide knowledge and translations by looking through a stone of sorts. When I look at my smartphone it allows me to look through a screen created through lights and colors to obtain information that I may not currently have. And I can definitely use a translator for a variety of languages. I think a big difference is that the seer stone or urim and thummim is able to place that knowledge directly into the mind with clarity (if worthy of using them) whereas on a phone or computer screen it takes more time to process. However, research is in the works to have microchips implanted in the brain and be able to basically "download" information into our brains. (Neuralink). Still a long way off of ever being a realistic product.

I understand your point now that you have clarified it. Earlier you were just telling me that my statement was inaccurate and so I was simply defending my statement.

The development of faith in the Lord is an individual matter. Repentance is also an individual matter. Only as an individual can one be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. Each of us is born individually; likewise, each of us is “born again”8individually. Salvation is an individual matter. -President Nelson, Conference Talk April 2008

@The Folk Prophet I feel like your last post was purposefully antagonistic. I am simply trying to discuss thoughts and opinions, not force you or anyone else to do anything. This statement is just as inaccurate as... ...this one. I don't understand why you would say this is inaccurate. Agency is individual, 2Nephi 2:27 And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil. No one forces me to sin, no one forces me to choose the right. I choose. Salvation is individual. Zion is not a one man show. The City of Enoch was not just the prophet Enoch. The people in the Americas after Christ visited them was not one person. So how many people does it take to achieve to Zion? 2? 20? 200? 2 million? What's the magic ratio of righteous to wicked? Obviously there is no magic number... but it does take more than one. Again, this is obviously not a mortal means of communication, but with resurrected bodies and minds that can think a million times faster I don't think verbal communication will be the most efficient. Besides, I was referring to communication related jobs will be obsolete. Again, obviously here in mortality we need some rest, some recreation, and some way to provide a living for our families. This is just my point again to working towards a Zion-like society. Focusing on the most important things as opposed to worldly things. Priorities that lead us to living a celestial lifestyle.

Yes, salvation is on an individual basis. Zion however is a society, a community, a team effort. If this is so obvious, and we have been flooded with the answers, then why does it seem that we are no closer to a present day Zion then we were 100 years ago. Yes the church has grown in population and there are many more temples... but inactivity rates are higher, the wealth gap between rich and poor is higher than ever... If all we have to do is follow the checklist then why does our end goal seem hardly closer than before. Would anyone say that the current active church population is more righteous than those of 100 years ago? I'm not disregarding the importance of those good habits and routines. When I try to imagine what living a celestial life will be like, I think we all would have incomprehensible culture shock due to our lack of preparation. The lifestyle that we are used to is filled with professions with the goal to make a living, make money. Those things will not exist in a celestial life and we are supposed to be preparing for it. Communication Telepathy? Revelation? Education and Training Learning will not cost Finance No need Government and Public Administration Christ is King Health Science No sickness/injury Hospitality and Tourism No need Human Services No need Information Technology No need Law, Public Safety, Corrections, and Security No war, crime, dishonesty, etc… Manufacturing No need Marketing, Sales, and Service No need Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics Learning will not cost Transportation, Distribution, and Logistics No need With all these becoming obsolete, what will we be spending our time doing for eternity? It will not be trying to make money. The closer we can move in the direction of a Zion-like society here, the closer we are to living a celestial life.

This is true. I don't believe we are ready and I know there are a lot of obstacles (pride being among the top) before we are. I love hearing the examples that @Anddenex was giving and I wish those things could be more commonplace. When I define helping the poor it is based on need starting with food, clothing, and shelter and only expanding on that after those primary needs are met. When a debt is payed off through the assistance of someone who has the funds to do so it is expected that the one who was in debt is still working as a productive individual and isn't out looking for the next thing to get him back in debt. Someone who is living celestial law is self-reliant. I think a better question I need to ask is: What steps need to be taken presently in order for further progress to be in made in creating a zion today. If we are clearly not ready (and i'm talking about large scale because I'm sure there are some who are in fact ready) then what changes need to be made? What progress actually is being made that maybe i'm not seeing?

All I am saying is what the Lord said D&C 49:20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin. A key part of the definition of Zion is that they are all equal and there is no poor among them. Can no one clarify this to me? I'm not saying hardwork is worthless and nothing is gained from it and I'm not saying the poor should be given boats and mansions. But imagine if the surplus wealth could pay off most if not all debt including mortgage debt. Imagine if the homeless never went hungry and were always clothed and were given the help they need to get on their feet to get a job and provide for themselves. Ever notice in the Book of Mormon that problems always started with riches? The wearing of costly apparel, class distinctions, etc. Has anyone read Hugh Nibley's book Approaching Zion?

Average and median are different Mean household incomeEdit Another common measurement of personal income is the mean household income. Unlike the median household income, which divides all households in two halves, the mean income is the average income earned by American households. In the case of mean income, the income of all households is divided by the number of all households.[25] The mean income is usually more affected by the relatively unequal distribution of income which tilts towards the top.[26] As a result, the mean tends to be higher than the median income, with the top earning households boosting it. Overall, the mean household income in the United States, according to the US Census Bureau 2014 Annual Social and Economic Supplement, was $72,641.[27] The US Census Bureau also provides a breakdown by self-identified ethnic groups as follows (as of March 2018): Mean household income by ethnicity[27] Ethnic category Mean household income Asian alone $114,105 White alone $89,632 Hispanic or Latino $68,319 Black $58,985 Mean vs. median household incomeEdit

@mikbone I'm not saying I can't or i'm not, but the need to meet temporal needs (and the anxiety it creates) takes up more time and energy that I would prefer to dedicate to spiritual/enlightening things.

If Christ (or the Prophet) asked of us today the same as was asked of the young rich man, sell all that you have and give to the poor, how many would be able to do it with a willing heart.