LineUponLine

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  1. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from Anddenex in The gender of angels   
    I suppose anytime someone witnessed concourses of angels singing around the throne of God or to the shepherds there were probably some female sopranos and altos participating.
  2. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from askandanswer in The gender of angels   
    I suppose anytime someone witnessed concourses of angels singing around the throne of God or to the shepherds there were probably some female sopranos and altos participating.
  3. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from Anddenex in Struggling with LGBT   
    If they had repented, then sure, they could be in the Celestial Kingdom and I would rejoice. However if they hadn't repented then they wouldn't be there and I would be sad that they didn't follow the counsel of the prophets.
  4. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from Anddenex in Struggling with LGBT   
    Struggled with it. Sure. Acting on it. Nope. It goes against Celestial Law. I believe the atonement will make right everything, including LGBTQ+ struggles.
  5. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from scottyg in Struggling with LGBT   
    If they had repented, then sure, they could be in the Celestial Kingdom and I would rejoice. However if they hadn't repented then they wouldn't be there and I would be sad that they didn't follow the counsel of the prophets.
  6. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from scottyg in Struggling with LGBT   
    Struggled with it. Sure. Acting on it. Nope. It goes against Celestial Law. I believe the atonement will make right everything, including LGBTQ+ struggles.
  7. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from Anddenex in Joseph Smith comment on Matthew 24:36   
    I found this in the Ensign from August 2002:
    Of the Savior’s words that no man knows the day or the hour of the coming of the Son of Man (see Matt. 24:36), the Prophet asked: “Did Christ speak this as a general principle throughout all generations? Oh, no, He spoke in the present tense. No man that was then living upon the footstool of God knew the day or the hour. But He did not say that there was no man throughout all generations that should not know the day or the hour. No, for this would be in flat contradiction with other scripture. For the prophet says that God will do nothing but what He will reveal unto His servants the prophets. Consequently, if it is not made known to the prophets, it will not come to pass.”12
     
    Thoughts? Is the prophet the only one that will have the date revealed to him? Or could it be more than that?
  8. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from clbent04 in Is Sacrifice and Suffering an Eternal Endeavor?   
    We know that after this life all death, pain, suffering, etc. will cease. I believe that the sacrifices made in this life are evidences that we are willing to DO what is necessary and BE what is necessary to live a celestial life. If we are to one day have the same power and knowledge as God then we must prove that we are going to use that power and knowledge appropriately. To be a god means to live a certain way and as Joseph said in the lectures on faith that if God were to not live up to his characteristics and attributes to the fullest then he would cease to be God because we could no longer have sufficient faith in him. His glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. If we can't have faith in him then we cannot receive eternal life and God would cease to be glorified.
    As for eternal laws and how Christ was able to save us from sin and death, like Carborendum said, we cannon comprehend the mechanism of how it functions. Justice and Mercy may seem abstract, but the way they are described in scripture makes them seem somehow more like concrete powers of enforcement.
    Animal sacrifice is only temporary to this telestial state of being.
  9. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from askandanswer in Humanity's options?   
    Just as a child is dependent on his parents until he leaves home and can be self-sufficient and capable of taking care of him/herself, the same applies with our Heavenly Father. We are going to be dependent on Him for a very long time, even after death, until we have sufficiently climbed the ladder of light and truth and reached "the perfect day". Then when we have reached the same level of omnipotence and omniscience as Him, I believe we will no longer be dependent on God.
  10. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from Traveler in How is the Church doing handling the latest crisis?   
    When Mahonri Moriancumr asked Jesus what to do about the darkness in the barges the Lord responded with:
    Ether 2:23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels?
    I think that the Lord gives us problems that he wants us to work out and in many instances there is no right or wrong answer. Mahonri chose to get 16 stones of molten rock and have Christ touch them to light them. With God's power Mahonri could have asked for any variety of methods to light the barges, but God simply wanted Mahonri to think and act.
    It is also important to note that God gave Mahonri specific responses to how they would be guided on the sea and how to get fresh air. So sometimes God gives us direct instructions, other times he wants us to think and then ask him for confirmation.
    D&C: 58:26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is acompelled in all things, the same is a bslothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
    Our Prophets sometimes have to look at current situations, think for themselves, ask God for confirmation, and then move forward. With this being the case the phrase "Thus saith the Lord..." would be incorrect because the ideas came from the prophets themselves. It would be better to say "The Lord backs me up when I say...".
     
    As for the statements concerning the righteousness/valiance of the youth today - I think things are simply moving forward as prophesied. We know that in the last days the church will be small compared to the world - yet powerful. For every individual that falls away from the church there is another individual in the church whose strength is growing. There is opposition in all things. The individual who is the only active member in their family, friend group, town, city, or even country needs to be very strong indeed to move forward with faith when everyone around them is trying to bring them down.  Based on my understanding of the parable of the 10 virgins, only half of the members of the church will be ready at Christ's second coming. So regardless of HOW the General Authorities are choosing to express themselves in their talks in General Conference or elsewhere, we should know that the WHAT and WHY are from God.  Honestly I think if there was too much boldness or pulpit pounding it might be counterproductive. I think there is a time for all things. Christ taught differently depending on his audience. To some it was straightforward and bold, to some it was in parables, to some it was with intense power, and to some with gentle love. In the end the message was the same: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and everyone who believes in him and obeys his gospel will be saved.
  11. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from JohnsonJones in How is the Church doing handling the latest crisis?   
    When Mahonri Moriancumr asked Jesus what to do about the darkness in the barges the Lord responded with:
    Ether 2:23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels?
    I think that the Lord gives us problems that he wants us to work out and in many instances there is no right or wrong answer. Mahonri chose to get 16 stones of molten rock and have Christ touch them to light them. With God's power Mahonri could have asked for any variety of methods to light the barges, but God simply wanted Mahonri to think and act.
    It is also important to note that God gave Mahonri specific responses to how they would be guided on the sea and how to get fresh air. So sometimes God gives us direct instructions, other times he wants us to think and then ask him for confirmation.
    D&C: 58:26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is acompelled in all things, the same is a bslothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
    Our Prophets sometimes have to look at current situations, think for themselves, ask God for confirmation, and then move forward. With this being the case the phrase "Thus saith the Lord..." would be incorrect because the ideas came from the prophets themselves. It would be better to say "The Lord backs me up when I say...".
     
    As for the statements concerning the righteousness/valiance of the youth today - I think things are simply moving forward as prophesied. We know that in the last days the church will be small compared to the world - yet powerful. For every individual that falls away from the church there is another individual in the church whose strength is growing. There is opposition in all things. The individual who is the only active member in their family, friend group, town, city, or even country needs to be very strong indeed to move forward with faith when everyone around them is trying to bring them down.  Based on my understanding of the parable of the 10 virgins, only half of the members of the church will be ready at Christ's second coming. So regardless of HOW the General Authorities are choosing to express themselves in their talks in General Conference or elsewhere, we should know that the WHAT and WHY are from God.  Honestly I think if there was too much boldness or pulpit pounding it might be counterproductive. I think there is a time for all things. Christ taught differently depending on his audience. To some it was straightforward and bold, to some it was in parables, to some it was with intense power, and to some with gentle love. In the end the message was the same: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and everyone who believes in him and obeys his gospel will be saved.
  12. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from SilentOne in How is the Church doing handling the latest crisis?   
    When Mahonri Moriancumr asked Jesus what to do about the darkness in the barges the Lord responded with:
    Ether 2:23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels?
    I think that the Lord gives us problems that he wants us to work out and in many instances there is no right or wrong answer. Mahonri chose to get 16 stones of molten rock and have Christ touch them to light them. With God's power Mahonri could have asked for any variety of methods to light the barges, but God simply wanted Mahonri to think and act.
    It is also important to note that God gave Mahonri specific responses to how they would be guided on the sea and how to get fresh air. So sometimes God gives us direct instructions, other times he wants us to think and then ask him for confirmation.
    D&C: 58:26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is acompelled in all things, the same is a bslothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
    Our Prophets sometimes have to look at current situations, think for themselves, ask God for confirmation, and then move forward. With this being the case the phrase "Thus saith the Lord..." would be incorrect because the ideas came from the prophets themselves. It would be better to say "The Lord backs me up when I say...".
     
    As for the statements concerning the righteousness/valiance of the youth today - I think things are simply moving forward as prophesied. We know that in the last days the church will be small compared to the world - yet powerful. For every individual that falls away from the church there is another individual in the church whose strength is growing. There is opposition in all things. The individual who is the only active member in their family, friend group, town, city, or even country needs to be very strong indeed to move forward with faith when everyone around them is trying to bring them down.  Based on my understanding of the parable of the 10 virgins, only half of the members of the church will be ready at Christ's second coming. So regardless of HOW the General Authorities are choosing to express themselves in their talks in General Conference or elsewhere, we should know that the WHAT and WHY are from God.  Honestly I think if there was too much boldness or pulpit pounding it might be counterproductive. I think there is a time for all things. Christ taught differently depending on his audience. To some it was straightforward and bold, to some it was in parables, to some it was with intense power, and to some with gentle love. In the end the message was the same: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and everyone who believes in him and obeys his gospel will be saved.
  13. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from Xavier in Temple Recommend Requirements for General Authorities (i.e. President Nelson)   
    I remember hearing a general authority tell that he would meet with his bishop for tithing settlement at the end of each year, so I believe that while it may seem redundant coming from a general authority I would think they still follow the procedure to have a recommend interview with their Bishop and Stake President when needed.  The simple act of declaring their worthiness is still an important rite of passage if you will. Even apostles can make errors and may need to repent of something from time to time.
  14. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from Anddenex in Is this paradoxical?   
    One thing about faith is that it starts from someone who has full knowledge. Lectures on faith describe how that whole first millennium there was either Adam who had seen and interacted with God, or someone who knew Adam, thereby gaining faith from he who had true knowledge.
    Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ and therefore had true knowledge in them. So all who listened to his words were gaining faith through someone who had the truth. Now just because Joseph had this knowledge of the Father and the Son doesn't mean he didn't need faith to act according to their commands. (Polygamy for example was a difficult one for Joseph to follow, but he had the faith to follow it and now probably has a knowledge of it's eternal purpose).
    Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
  15. Thanks
    LineUponLine reacted to NeedleinA in Fun thought on Urim and Thummim/Seer Stones   
    Your thought is similar to what Elder Uchtdorf shared a couple of years ago.
    Doctrinal Mastery Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Teacher Material  The Restoration, Part 3  
  16. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from Vort in Hi, In need of intellectual stimulation   
    Hi all,
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I love studying the gospel but find that I don't have the group of peers/acquaintances that I would like for some good stimulating conversations on doctrines and current events in relation to prophecy. I hope to both provide and receive some of that here. I have never been part of a forum but I need an outlet for my thoughts.
    My favorite topics are:
    The second coming (and current events related to it)
    The characteristics of God and becoming like him (to the full extent)
    What needs to happen for some serious progression towards a Zion-like society (just recently finished reading Approaching Zion by Hugh Nibley)... law of consecration anyone?
     
  17. Like
    LineUponLine reacted to Vort in Living the Law of Consecration fully   
    @LineUponLine, I like your desire, and I like your attitude of "Why not now?" Don't lose that.
    We are building Zion, which will greet our Lord at his coming. To do that, we must become a Zion people. Zion people don't worry inordinately about how much money they have. Their standard is, "Sufficient for our needs." If a Zion person ever happens to get rich, he does so with the understanding that he will use his money to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and otherwise administer relief to the poor.
    But how is this to be done? Is there some implicit "vow of poverty" in this mindset? As soon as we get a dollar in surplus, we need to go give it to the nearest street person? Absolutely not.
    Suppose a Saint striving to be a Zion person finds himself, by dint of his own perseverence, hard work, dedication, and luck (as if there is any such thing), with an abundance of money. Suppose he then establishes a charity and endows his charity with a bunch of money, a la Bill Gates. Is that not clothing the naked and feeding the hungry?
    Suppose this Saint instead establishes a business that eventually employs thousands, giving people a chance to earn money by the sweat of their face, just as the Lord commanded Adam. Does he not (referencing Ayn Rand philosophy here) provide a way for his brothers and sisters to ennoble themselves and pursue their own path to Zion? And as his business helps them create wealth, they get to clothe the naked and feed the hungry, so instead of having one rich guy, we have tens of thousands of moderately rich people who give to the poor. Don't you think that would be much more efficient?
    When Zion is truly and fully established, I do not know what it will look like. Doubtless it will look different from many or all of our current ideas, most of which are modeled after Brigham Young-era attempts at establishing various united orders. But whatever it looks like, I don't think it will be all that alien to us. If we could see it in a vision of the future, I expect many of us would say, "Of course! How obvious! Why didn't I see it before?"
    Bottom line: Do not worry about establishing economic Zion. The Lord will do that in his own good time, and it's a fool's errand to try to do it before that time. But we should indeed practice consecration, giving all our time and talents to God for the establishment of Zion through his kingdom, aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Be content that we will one day dwell in Zion, to go no more out, if not in this life then in the next.
  18. Confused
    LineUponLine reacted to The Folk Prophet in Living the Law of Consecration fully   
    This statement is just as inaccurate as...
    ...this one.
    Because knowing and doing are not the same thing.
    So how many people does it take to achieve to Zion? 2? 20? 200? 2 million?
    What's the magic ratio of righteous to wicked?
    Isn't the answer in the question?
    Since you keep using "we", which includes me by default I felt the need to correct this statement. Maybe you have a lifestyle filled with a profession for the sake of just making more and more money. I work because it is my fatherly responsibility to be the breadwinner:
    "By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families."
    Consider me properly called to repentance on my failure to practice telepathy.
    As to the rest of your list... it seems like you're implying that because we won't, say...go on vacation as gods that we ought to never go on vacation in mortality. And who needs a job...because...you know...exaltation.
    Or am I missing something here?
  19. Thanks
    LineUponLine reacted to Anddenex in Living the Law of Consecration fully   
    I honestly don't know why it hasn't been commanded again; although, I would think there are two potential reasons:
    1) There are people/members who will complain because they see what it means to no longer have rich or poor to be different. (as you stated)
    2) There are people/members who have more who will also complain because they forget the idea where their blessings come from. I hear all to often in our world, "I am where I am because I work hard." (which assumes all other people who aren't where I am is because they don't work hard) They will have a hard time giving up their income because they are forgetting by whose hand their blessing comes.
    I also think we have to remember the teaching of "slothful and unwise servants" who wait to be commanded in all things. Sure, I have no problem living the law of consecration or living within the United Order. But, what am I doing now that shows I am living it already? In part, our fast offerings highlight to some degree our love for this law and lifestyle.
    Let me explain from my perspective, if I were rich I would be seeking out myself family members and ward members who were in need. I wouldn't wait for the united order to bless my neighbor. I would be the Lord's instrument in helping out more often than not. I am not talking about one instance in one year. I am talking about helping in relation to my income. Notice how the Lord has said that we seek for riches we seek them to cloth the naked, feed the poor, etc... But how many of our brothers who have an abundance of wealth are actually seeking out those in need?
    So, yes, we a good majority of members will move when commanded. What I am inquiring, are our faithful members willing to act without the command? That is more a show of our actual desires and heart.
    I am cautious to think that the reason we haven't is only one sided -- the poor (sorry, if I am misreading your last statement as this is what I am reading) who desire more. When the poor realize they aren't privy to someone else's wealth (as Zion can not be accomplished by compulsory means -- my honest opinion -- and should not be) so they work and labor for what they receive (self-reliance), and the rich remember by whom their blessings come remembering that it isn't there money in the first place. Then we will see Zion began to flourish.
  20. Thanks
    LineUponLine got a reaction from Anddenex in Living the Law of Consecration fully   
    This is true. I don't believe we are ready and I know there are a lot of obstacles (pride being among the top) before we are. I love hearing the examples that @Anddenex was giving and I wish those things could be more commonplace.
    When I define helping the poor it is based on need starting with food, clothing, and shelter and only expanding on that after those primary needs are met. When a debt is payed off through the assistance of someone who has the funds to do so it is expected that the one who was in debt is still working as a productive individual and isn't out looking for the next thing to get him back in debt. Someone who is living celestial law is self-reliant.
    I think a better question I need to ask is: What steps need to be taken presently in order for further progress to be in made in creating a zion today. If we are clearly not ready (and i'm talking about large scale because I'm sure there are some who are in fact ready) then what changes need to be made? What progress actually is being made that maybe i'm not seeing?
  21. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Living the Law of Consecration fully   
    I'm not expecting something like the United Order but clearly there is a vast separation between the rich and the poor even among church members. When I see very wealthy members and their mansions, boats, toys, etc... and then see others who are in severe debt or have literally nothing... it makes me wonder when the law of consecration will be lived to the fullest to the point where there will be no more poor among us (at least in the church).
    I don't expect the poor to be idle and live off the wealthy, everyone needs to be a productive member of society, but I do think that the Lord blesses people with wealth to see how they will use it for the benefit of others. I don't feel like the resources that are available are being used to create the Zion like society. 
    The average household income in the U.S. as of 2014 was $73,298. If that average was applied to everyone, that would be plenty for any household to afford all needs and even plenty of wants. Obviously appropriate use of the funds needs to be used wisely... even a multimillionaire can go into debt from greed.
    Once all basic needs are met of food, raiment, shelter, etc... then a society working towards living celestial law becomes incredibly productive and intelligent. Way too much time and effort is being spent by the poor trying to make ends meet when the wealthy could quickly close those gaps. Additionally, when everyone is equal in all things, all of a sudden comparisons and competition are a thing of the past. This then lowers anxiety, depression, and other issues.
    Obviously this is not going to be fully realistic until the millenium, however we are supposed to be preparing ourselves to receive Christ at the second coming. We are not ready in our current materialistic mindset to receive him and live the celestial law that he would expect from the kingdom of god on earth.
  22. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Living the Law of Consecration fully   
    So I know that the law of consecration is something that is something that we covenant in the temple to keep along with the law of obedience and law of sacrifice... and I believe that in some ways they are kept... and yet I feel like as a whole we are still so far from living the full law.  I have recently read Approaching Zion by Hugh Nibley and he very clearly describes how we should be living if we want to be creating a zion-like society in the present. Basically we are all in one degree or another keeping one foot in Babylon (the world) and one in Zion.  It is very difficult for us to literally give up all that we have and follow Christ. Give up all that we have and give it to the poor.  D&C 49  19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance. 20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.
    At what point do we as members of the church, of our own free will, go to the bishop and say "I want to give the the Lord (through the church) everything I have with the promise that my needs will be met."?  
    From what I understand, either we choose willingly to live this law to the fullest or D&C 105: 5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself. 6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.
    I would prefer to not suffer if possible through my own faithfulness and preparation. Besides, the blessings from it can't be measured. I would love it if making money to make a living wasn't such a daily focus. I would love to still work hard for my needs but be able to stimulate my mind with the remaining time. Gaining knowledge (of eternal truths) is what saves us and helps us become like God.
     
  23. Thanks
    LineUponLine got a reaction from Anddenex in Living the Law of Consecration fully   
    All I am saying is what the Lord said D&C 49:20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.
    A key part of the definition of Zion is that they are all equal and there is no poor among them.
    Can no one clarify this to me?
     
    I'm not saying hardwork is worthless and nothing is gained from it and I'm not saying the poor should be given boats and mansions. But imagine if the surplus wealth could pay off most if not all debt including mortgage debt. Imagine if the homeless never went hungry and were always clothed and were given the help they need to get on their feet to get a job and provide for themselves.
     
    Ever notice in the Book of Mormon that problems always started with riches? The wearing of costly apparel, class distinctions, etc. 
    Has anyone read Hugh Nibley's book Approaching Zion?
     
     
  24. Thanks
    LineUponLine got a reaction from Anddenex in Living the Law of Consecration fully   
    I'm not expecting something like the United Order but clearly there is a vast separation between the rich and the poor even among church members. When I see very wealthy members and their mansions, boats, toys, etc... and then see others who are in severe debt or have literally nothing... it makes me wonder when the law of consecration will be lived to the fullest to the point where there will be no more poor among us (at least in the church).
    I don't expect the poor to be idle and live off the wealthy, everyone needs to be a productive member of society, but I do think that the Lord blesses people with wealth to see how they will use it for the benefit of others. I don't feel like the resources that are available are being used to create the Zion like society. 
    The average household income in the U.S. as of 2014 was $73,298. If that average was applied to everyone, that would be plenty for any household to afford all needs and even plenty of wants. Obviously appropriate use of the funds needs to be used wisely... even a multimillionaire can go into debt from greed.
    Once all basic needs are met of food, raiment, shelter, etc... then a society working towards living celestial law becomes incredibly productive and intelligent. Way too much time and effort is being spent by the poor trying to make ends meet when the wealthy could quickly close those gaps. Additionally, when everyone is equal in all things, all of a sudden comparisons and competition are a thing of the past. This then lowers anxiety, depression, and other issues.
    Obviously this is not going to be fully realistic until the millenium, however we are supposed to be preparing ourselves to receive Christ at the second coming. We are not ready in our current materialistic mindset to receive him and live the celestial law that he would expect from the kingdom of god on earth.
  25. Like
    LineUponLine got a reaction from Anddenex in Living the Law of Consecration fully   
    So I know that the law of consecration is something that is something that we covenant in the temple to keep along with the law of obedience and law of sacrifice... and I believe that in some ways they are kept... and yet I feel like as a whole we are still so far from living the full law.  I have recently read Approaching Zion by Hugh Nibley and he very clearly describes how we should be living if we want to be creating a zion-like society in the present. Basically we are all in one degree or another keeping one foot in Babylon (the world) and one in Zion.  It is very difficult for us to literally give up all that we have and follow Christ. Give up all that we have and give it to the poor.  D&C 49  19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance. 20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.
    At what point do we as members of the church, of our own free will, go to the bishop and say "I want to give the the Lord (through the church) everything I have with the promise that my needs will be met."?  
    From what I understand, either we choose willingly to live this law to the fullest or D&C 105: 5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself. 6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.
    I would prefer to not suffer if possible through my own faithfulness and preparation. Besides, the blessings from it can't be measured. I would love it if making money to make a living wasn't such a daily focus. I would love to still work hard for my needs but be able to stimulate my mind with the remaining time. Gaining knowledge (of eternal truths) is what saves us and helps us become like God.